Flight speed needs a buff

[ShardWarrior]

How about, middle of the west side, to the middle of the east side ... without getting wet?  SS and SJ alike would be absolutely screwed, for that one.

 

Water doesn't cause SS to slow down.

[justicebeliever]

How about some more obscure travel powers?

 

I want to turn into sand and move across the terrain like the Sandman...

 

Or Hydro-man and just travel the piping and waterways of the city...

 

Or turn into a lightning bolt and travel as that...

 

Or ride the top of a tornado...

 

Or go really, really obscure, and get vehicles...

[ShardWarrior]

How about some more obscure travel powers?

 

I want to turn into sand and move across the terrain like the Sandman...

 

Or Hydro-man and just travel the piping and waterways of the city...

 

Or turn into a lightning bolt and travel as that...

 

Or ride the top of a tornado...

 

Or go really, really obscure, and get vehicles...

 

Those would be way cool!

[PaxArcana]

How about, middle of the west side, to the middle of the east side ... without getting wet?  SS and SJ alike would be absolutely screwed, for that one.

 

Water doesn't cause SS to slow down.

I didn't say it did.  But someone might still prefer not to get wet, anyway.

 

Also, you have to find a way back up out of the water, which can take time to do.  The guy in the air?  Straight to B, no "where the hell is a set of stairs when you need one".

 

Also, I note you didn't even try to address Faultline.

[ShardWarrior]

Also, I note you didn't even try to address Faultline.

 

Well, sure.  There are zones where Fly has something of an advantage over SS just as there are zones where teleport has advantages of SS or SS has an advantage over the others. 

 

I still feel SJ and teleport is faster in Faultline than fly - but that's my opinion. 

 

 

[EggKookoo]

I still feel SJ and teleport is faster in Faultline than fly - but that's my opinion.

 

Generally, Teleport is faster than Fly without Afterburner. It's also riskier (typically more end-hungry, plus, you know, falling) and more complex to use.

 

I wouldn't disagree that in the hands of someone experienced with it, SJ gives Fly a run for its money. It might be a bit faster, but again, it's riskier and more complex to use. Not as risky or complex as Teleport, but harder than almost literally doing nothing.

[justicebeliever]

Also, I note you didn't even try to address Faultline.

 

Well, sure.  There are zones where Fly has something of an advantage over SS just as there are zones where teleport has advantages of SS or SS has an advantage over the others. 

 

I still feel SJ and teleport is faster in Faultline than fly - but that's my opinion.

 

I'd agree with this as well...each travel power brings something to the game...SS's big something, besides going as fast as you can manage on the ground, is +Stealth, -Threat.  Fly has a huge advantage in that you can just go above the fray...Though I dare say, none of these powers work well in Terra Volta...they got you covered on all sides there.  Teleport has a lot of advantage on the map - just click and go there...No one can get in your way (well, except walls).  I haven't played with SJ very much (just took it for the 1st time on a character, and I like it, but can't really judge it's overall effectiveness).  Teleport also gives you Recall Friend and TP Foe, which can be VERY advantageous...Fly gives you Hover (+DEF, better for indoor missions) and Afterburner.  And Super Speed gives you nothing else travel related (which is admittedly, a bummer).  You kind of need to look at the whole set.

 

Like I said, I would be fine if Fly enhancements made fly go faster.  If that's how you want to spend your slots (I would) then that's the benefit you should get.

 

Maybe SS should get a "Phase" power similar to the Conceal set, but somehow unique to SS?  I love it if you could run vertically, but I now that's out of the question due to game mechanics...Maybe SS takes Jump Enhancements and gets a boost there?  IDK...

 

Also, I am thinking of the Golden Age Airwave who used roller skates to ride on electric/telephone wires...I want that power...

[ShardWarrior]

Like I said, I would be fine if Fly enhancements made fly go faster.  If that's how you want to spend your slots (I would) then that's the benefit you should get.

 

Exactly!  And it goes a long way toward requiring 2 other power selections to make flight speed palatable. 

 

Maybe SS should get a "Phase" power similar to the Conceal set, but somehow unique to SS?

 

That's actually an interesting suggestion.  You can already "phase" in a way in the game when you're able to move through "solid" objects while base editing.  Wonder how difficult it would be to incorporate that into SS?

[EggKookoo]

Like I said, I would be fine if Fly enhancements made fly go faster.  If that's how you want to spend your slots (I would) then that's the benefit you should get.

 

This confuses me. Are you saying adding Flight Speed enhancements to Fly doesn't make you fly faster?

 

Maybe SS should get a "Phase" power similar to the Conceal set, but somehow unique to SS?

 

The problem here is in defining what it is you can phase through exactly. MOBs? Might be useful in some cases. Buildings? The engine certainly isn't set up for that as there's nothing "inside" the buildings in the city. Even phasing through walls within a door mission would be problematic.

 

It's a valid concept, I'm just thinking about it game-engine-wise. In the end, it's the same problem with wall running.

 

One thing I thought might be fun is if you could go into a "move so fast you seem to be in multiple places" attack. Kind of like a one-person Gang War. Like, suddenly a bunch of you appear and dog pile your target in a chaotic mass of attacks, then run off. Might be weird with ranged ATs but it could be made to work.

 

Not quite this (jump to 1:40) but along the same idea.

[justicebeliever]

Like I said, I would be fine if Fly enhancements made fly go faster.  If that's how you want to spend your slots (I would) then that's the benefit you should get.

 

This confuses me. Are you saying adding Flight Speed enhancements to Fly doesn't make you fly faster?

Yes, without Afterburner, Fly speed is already at cap, and Fly Enhancements do nothing.  With Afterburner, you can slap in Enhancements into Fly, Afterburner, even Swift, and they will ALL make you go faster...

 

Maybe SS should get a "Phase" power similar to the Conceal set, but somehow unique to SS?

 

The problem here is in defining what it is you can phase through exactly. MOBs? Might be useful in some cases. Buildings? The engine certainly isn't set up for that as there's nothing "inside" the buildings in the city. Even phasing through walls within a door mission would be problematic.

 

It's a valid concept, I'm just thinking about it game-engine-wise. In the end, it's the same problem with wall running.

 

One thing I thought might be fun is if you could go into a "move so fast you seem to be in multiple places" attack. Kind of like a one-person Gang War. Like, suddenly a bunch of you appear and dog pile your target in a chaotic mass of attacks, then run off. Might be weird with ranged ATs but it could be made to work.

 

Not quite this (jump to 1:40) but along the same idea.

 

I'd be down with this as well...

[ShardWarrior]

The problem here is in defining what it is you can phase through exactly. MOBs? Might be useful in some cases. Buildings? The engine certainly isn't set up for that as there's nothing "inside" the buildings in the city. Even phasing through walls within a door mission would be problematic.

 

You can already walk through solid objects while base editing.

[EggKookoo]

Yes, without Afterburner, Fly speed is already at cap, and Fly Enhancements do nothing.  With Afterburner, you can slap in Enhancements into Fly, Afterburner, even Swift, and they will ALL make you go faster...

 

Oh, right, I forgot it was already at cap. See, this just reinforces my position that Afterburner was a mistake. They should have just raised the cap and let you slot +Fly. I don't see the harm there.

[EggKookoo]

You can already walk through solid objects while base editing.

 

Walking through small things like computer consoles, or I guess maybe cargo containers and whatnot inside a door mission, might not be a problem. But is that really what we think of for Super Speed? That's more of a general stealth-like thing.

 

I dunno...

[Obitus]

I feel like ShardWarrior got dogpiled in this thread, so I'll toss him a little support here:  Flight's convenience advantage over Superspeed is borderline irrelevant in a game where anyone can buy vertical movement at the P2W vendor.  This isn't the old CoH, where we all couldn't wait to get to level 14, so we could pick the mode of travel that would largely define our characters.  These days, lots of min/maxers don't even take a "real" travel power, and most that do take one take SS, for the stealth. 

 

And just about everyone takes the Speed pool, because Hasten is the most generally valuable pool power in existence.  Nothing in the Flight pool comes close, and I say that as an avowed Hover fetishist.  Hover is spectacularly useful for ranged builds, but you have to commit to a pretty major play-style/concept/thematic concession to make it shine.  At least Hover no longer requires three slots to move at more than a crawl.

 

Jumping, likewise, is just-ok, as a power pool.  Combat Jumping adds a great deal of combat-relevant maneuverability (pairs well with SS, too, of course); it costs almost zero End; it provides Immobilize protection, and it's a nice little Defense boost that has more general appeal than Hover, because there's no downside for any character in leaving it on.  Other than that, you have Superjump itself, which is what I'd call a solidly middle-class travel power, and you have Acrobatics, which has some utility in niche scenarios, but which has largely been rendered moot by the IO system.  There's little else to the pool.  Mostly gimmicks.  Don't get me wrong; I love me some gimmicks, and things like Spring Attack can be enormously fun, but you really have to squint to find character builds/concepts that derive more than a for-funsies benefit from things like Spring Attack.

 

Teleport is just a bad pool.  Sure, there's some utility in Recall Friend, but most of the pool's utility has been subsumed by temp powers.  The travel power itself is fast but expensive and clunky to use unless you combine it with Fly/Hover.  Mystic Flight combines both in one power pick, and it comes in a much more interesting pool, to boot.  Though it's true that nothing beats an enhanced TP for pure travel speed, pure travel speed isn't enough of an advantage these days to bother, or if you prefer, the investment is nowhere near worthwhile.

 

So, to bring this rambling post to something approaching an on-topic finish, I don't necessarily agree that Fly, in and of itself, needs a buff - but I do think that Fly requires too much investment to increase its speed beyond what anyone can achieve by visiting the P2W vendor.  By the same token, I also agree with ShardWarrior's implicit argument that Fly in particular and travel powers in general have become more-or-less just a power/slot tax on concept builds.  That is, except for Super Speed, which has huge utility as a stealth power.

 

It'd be nice if you could slot Fly to reach Afterburner-levels of speed.  It'd also be very cool if, as someone suggested, Super Speed unlocked the flight-speed cap.  More interactions between travel powers, in the spirit of Hover+Teleport (or Mystic Flight and itself :P ), would be very neat.

[EggKookoo]

So, to bring this rambling post to something approaching an on-topic finish, I don't necessarily agree that Fly, in and of itself, needs a buff - but I do think that Fly requires too much investment to increase its speed beyond what anyone can achieve by visiting the P2W vendor.

 

I agree with that. I understand the complaints that pre-Afterburner, Fly just felt slow.

 

It'd be nice if you could slot Fly to reach Afterburner-levels of speed.  It'd also be very cool if, as someone suggested, Super Speed unlocked the flight-speed cap.  More interactions between travel powers, in the spirit of Hover+Teleport (or Mystic Flight and itself :P ), would be very neat.

 

8)

[PaxArcana]

The travel power itself is fast but expensive and clunky to use unless you combine it with Fly/Hover.

... or use a keybind (mine is "Shift + Left-click").  As long as I don't run out of END, I can cross a zone at about the height of the 10th to 15th floor in perfect safety.

 

Going END-o does mean going splat, though.  :D

 

 

  Mystic Flight combines both in one power pick, and [...]

... should never have existed, IMO.

[Obitus]

The travel power itself is fast but expensive and clunky to use unless you combine it with Fly/Hover.

... or use a keybind (mine is "Shift + Left-click").  As long as I don't run out of END, I can cross a zone at about the height of the 10th to 15th floor in perfect safety.

 

Going END-o does mean going splat, though.  :D

 

Yeah, that's a great bind, arguably required on a Teleport build, and yeah you can get by without Hover/Fly on a Teleport toon - but even with the bind there's still the risk of lagging out or getting distracted and then falling.

 

(My Ice/Storm Corruptor uses ctrl+click for Freezing Rain, shift+click for Ice Storm, Button4+click for Tornado, and 5+click for Blizzard.  Believe me, I find that bind indispensable in more ways than one.  It'd be challenge to find another convenient modifier key for Teleport if I had it. :P  Don't even remember what I ended up using on my teleporting Ice/Storm Controller back on live.  I will say this: TP is useful for people who want to herd stuff around with Hurricane.)

 

Anyway, the point is that teleport isn't a great travel power all by itself, and it's in a pool filled with powers that are more or less obsolete nowadays.

[justicebeliever]

The travel power itself is fast but expensive and clunky to use unless you combine it with Fly/Hover.

... or use a keybind (mine is "Shift + Left-click").  As long as I don't run out of END, I can cross a zone at about the height of the 10th to 15th floor in perfect safety.

 

Going END-o does mean going splat, though.  :D

 

Yeah, that's a great bind, arguably required on a Teleport build, and yeah you can get by without Hover/Fly on a Teleport toon - but even with the bind there's still the risk of lagging out or getting distracted and then falling.

 

(My Ice/Storm Corruptor uses ctrl+click for Freezing Rain, shift+click for Ice Storm, Button4+click for Tornado, and 5+click for Blizzard.  Believe me, I find that bind indispensable in more ways than one.  It'd be challenge to find another convenient modifier key for Teleport if I had it. :P  Don't even remember what I ended up using on my teleporting Ice/Storm Controller back on live.  I will say this: TP is useful for people who want to herd stuff around with Hurricane.)

 

Anyway, the point is that teleport isn't a great travel power all by itself, and it's in a pool filled with powers that are more or less obsolete nowadays.

 

I love the Teleportation Power Pool...Recall Friend is awesome when you regularly do PUG's...there is always some one getting lost or lagging behind.  TP Foe, is a great Pull Power, and Long Range Teleport Rocks...Team Teleport is worthless, unless you have Pets, in which case I am told it's great...

[Obitus]

I love the Teleportation Power Pool...Recall Friend is awesome when you regularly do PUG's...there is always some one getting lost or lagging behind.  TP Foe, is a great Pull Power, and Long Range Teleport Rocks...Team Teleport is worthless, unless you have Pets, in which case I am told it's great...

 

No one's saying that the Teleport pool has zero appeal to absolutely everyone, everywhere.  It should go without saying that we're discussing generalities.  And in general terms, it's hard to justify most of the powers in the teleport pool now:

 

 

You might say, "But Obi, Assemble the Team has a half-hour recharge timer," and that's a valid point, except that everyone on the team could have it.  I submit that if you find yourself wanting to teleport wayward teammates more than 8 times per half hour, then your team likely has problems too big for the TP pool to fix.

 

Likewise, pulling with TP Foe can be somewhat useful in the lower levels, but you shouldn't feel the need/desire to do it beyond a certain point - again, generally speaking.  If you like teleport, then more power to you.  I like it too, quite a bit.  You can obviously make an effective character with teleport, but power picks, slots, and pools are limited.  Thus, Teleport is sub-optimal.  The pool's strengths are extremely, extremely situational.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

A lot of not thinking of the bigger picture in this thread by a few posters. As has been stated fly itself compensates by not vertical limit. Trying to argue comic characters can do this or that is moot as there must be balance a give and take in a game system.

 

Powers like group fly and team teleport while situational do have builds that thrive on them, Mastermiind mainly. But during a MSR a group fly support build can be highly useful in keeping a  team together and flowing along. IME flight is the most favored and most useful travel power during an MSR, with recall friend getting a lot of use to when people die.

 

Speaking of Recall Friend is always damn good, a real must for any stalker especially one who is going to run TFs frequently. All my TF leader builds tend to have stealth and recall by lvl 14 for Positron's. It can be the difference of an hour or more on TFs like synapse.

 

Teleport without hover can be abit tricky I tend to use it for roof porting more like nightcrawler would do meself. Ironcally on my Stalkers I ususally ignore teleport, instead taking recall friend, tp foe, and long range teleport. Which in many cases is def the king travel power shame it doesnt have more zones on its list.

 

SS has a built in steath definately always good. many stalkers wont go without it and a stealth IO by high lvls due to rikti drones.

 

There are always going to be builds and ATs that view certain things as a must have.

 

The idea Hasten is a universal must isa  real myth. Since IO sets. if you can just build in 70% global via set bonuses you have old school perma hasten levels of recharge. more then enough fro those with toggle heavy builds who dont need to focus on global recharge as much as click heavy builds.

 

Some powers will always be meh on a great many of options but on a few niches shine through as the above mentioned masterminds with group fly and group teleport. being able to scout around with your whole group of minions then teleport into the middle of a group as a team is so damn effective it nearly breaks the game. yet because MM are more often then not used as a solo AT by a great many MM players most who dont play MM have no clue how effective those fringe powers become.

 

[Obitus]

A lot of not thinking of the bigger picture in this thread by a few posters.

 

[...]

 

The idea Hasten is a universal must isa  real myth. Since IO sets. if you can just build in 70% global via set bonuses you have old school perma hasten levels of recharge. more then enough fro those with toggle heavy builds who dont need to focus on global recharge as much as click heavy builds.

 

Some powers will always be meh on a great many of options but on a few niches shine through as the above mentioned masterminds with group fly and group teleport. being able to scout around with your whole group of minions then teleport into the middle of a group as a team is so damn effective it nearly breaks the game. yet because MM are more often then not used as a solo AT by a great many MM players most who dont play MM have no clue how effective those fringe powers become.

 

Of course Hasten isn't absolutely 100% necessary.  No one argued otherwise.  It is beyond question, though, that Hasten has about ten times more general appeal/utility - that is, appeal across the whole spectrum of builds and situations - than most of the powers in the teleport pool.  That you would criticize other people's lack of perspective, and then go on to downplay Hasten's benefits, while playing up the highly situational utility of other, much more marginal powers, mystifies me.

 

I'm glad you're enjoying Team Teleport on your MM.  It's unquestionably useful to MM builds.  MMs are 1/15th of the available ATs in this game.  You said it yourself; group fly and e.g. team teleport are "fringe powers."

[EggKookoo]

The idea Hasten is a universal must isa  real myth. Since IO sets. if you can just build in 70% global via set bonuses you have old school perma hasten levels of recharge. more then enough fro those with toggle heavy builds who dont need to focus on global recharge as much as click heavy builds.

 

[SwitchFade]

To the OP...

 

 

No vote.

[PaxArcana]

Anyway, the point is that teleport isn't a great travel power all by itself, and it's in a pool filled with powers that are more or less obsolete nowadays.

I like the way Champions Online did "Teleport" (phase out, REALLY OMIGOSH FAST flight, then phase in - on a timer, so you were going to phase back in like it or not.  And when out-of-phase, most graphics were suppressed and "blurry" (read: relatively low-rez), as well as being largely monochrome, they could in fact let you go HELLA fast, without your video card chugging out on you.

 

Anyway, I liked that a lot better than CoX's implementation.  Especially since the "phase out" part was nearly instantaneous, making it a MUCH better "ohcrapI'mabouttodie" escape option.

[EggKookoo]

I like the way Champions Online did "Teleport" (phase out, REALLY OMIGOSH FAST flight, then phase in - on a timer, so you were going to phase back in like it or not.  And when out-of-phase, most graphics were suppressed and "blurry" (read: relatively low-rez), as well as being largely monochrome, they could in fact let you go HELLA fast, without your video card chugging out on you.

 

Anyway, I liked that a lot better than CoX's implementation.  Especially since the "phase out" part was nearly instantaneous, making it a MUCH better "ohcrapI'mabouttodie" escape option.

 

I liked CO's teleport as a kind of "astral jump" power, but it never felt very teleporty to me. I prefer CoH's form of teleportation.