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Lets talk about Stone Armor:


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8 hours ago, Megajoule said:

Wouldn't giving out Granite at tier 1 make the rest of the set useless?

"Here's your power, singular - next level you get Rooted, and then the next thirty levels are powers you'll never actually use."

*cough* Mud pots and Earth's Embrace are still good powers.

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Run speed is a biggie, yes.  And as noted, a personal beef for me is that I want to see my character, not the back of a Devouring Earth critter.

Right now, I have to choose between being hobbled, slow as mud, and driving something that is not really my character ... or the rest of the set, which gives me decent mobility, but all of them put together are still not as good as Granite by itself.  It's an exclusive and binary choice, one or the other, and both options have big drawbacks.

Edited by Megajoule
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17 hours ago, Megajoule said:

Wouldn't giving out Granite at tier 1 make the rest of the set useless?

"Here's your power, singular - next level you get Rooted, and then the next thirty levels are powers you'll never actually use."

That's what this thread is pretty much about - Granite making everything else redundant.

 

We just wouldn't have to wait 30 odd levels for it to happen...

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  • 1 year later

I don't look at the problem as QUITE so binary as Megajoule.

Outside of Granite, i have to play something that's hobbled and slow as mud.

Inside Granite, I have to play something even MORE hobbled and slow as frozen pig snot on Pluto.
On top of this, my ability to attack things is SERIOUSLY reduced.
PLUS the ability of those attacks to actually do damage is neutered.

That's not just kicking someone when they're down.
That SPECIFICALLY aiming for crotch-shots with spike-toed boots.

Stone Armor doesn't need a "balance pass".
Stone Armor needs a complete rework from the word "go".

As much as I love our devs, and stand in awe of their magical "Make Awesome Stuff" skills with the game.
I'm not sure there's the will to undertake stuff like that.
Not because they CANNOT.
But because, under the hood, they're as conflicted about such a massive changes as many of us are.
Especially when there are other projects in the works that consume their time and yield more copious improvements to the game.

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If you want to be godlike, pick anything.

If you want to be GOD, pick a TANK!

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I've said this before somewhere but Stone Armor has some critical flaws:

 

- Underperforming at low levels (capstone Granite really is the night-and-day turnaround of the set)

- Stone armor is limited only toward being a solid boring boulder-y appearance. That's fine and all, but it would be excellent if we had say magma, crystalline, etc. variations of Granite armor for a lot more interesting flavor.

- The complete essence of this set invalidates itself in the current state of the game.

 

2 of those 3 are fixable, you could tweak the early level armor numbers to make something playable without Granite, you could of course add additional appearances to Granite for a lot more flavor, but the third pigeonholes the existence of this set.

 

Tankers need to not just be able to keep up with the team, they need to lead the team. They need to take the aggro. They have to be fast, that is something paramount to the core of the Tanker, a slow Tanker who just doesn't keep up group-to-group is of no use to that team for its functional role. Now, taking teleports alleviates a decent amount of the pain in this, but teleport itself is extremely wonky, slow, and definitely has major downsides in say cave maps, you're still likely going to be much slower than the team as a whole and that's if you didn't find teleport to be annoying to work with from the get-go. 

 

No matter how you sliced that, Granite paid the ultimate price for its sturdiness. It's like you're given a Ferrari but the car can never accept any gas to be able to drive it. What good is the car functionally from that point on? Sure it has some uses at shows, you could liquidate the car, etc. but you can never use it for its intended purpose of driving it.

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I tried Rock / Stone armour on live.  And did the whole 'tp' into aggro' thing.  A bit clunky and the slow earth boots...uhm....uh...

 

My re-role of my alt sees a WP/Stone melee tank.  And I'm taking the stone epics (RoCKsoR!) Salt Crystals and Quicksand.  Like it.  Lots.

 

Stone melee never gets old.  It feels robust and stone hammers and seismic smash are hot ticket attractions.  OVer and over.  Brutal with BUp.

 

Some alt looks for stone like the Magma mobs might be an idea.  Or the crystal look.  As suggested above.

 

So an alt look and...   Just boosting the stone boot run speed would help a lot.  There's penalties.  And there's over the top.  I have to run away from a fight or it's realllyyyyy slowwwwww.

 

So maybe you can't do x3 swift speed.  But with x3 swift slotted you should be faster than turgid slow motion.  A slight bump to Stone's armour performance at lower levels.  I don't think these things are beyond the current HC team.  The recent tank AT pass has transformed my Ice Tanker and the AoE 'radiating' power has been a sound addition.

 

Azrael.

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I played my granite girl so much in live. I loved the hell out of it. Now, I just can't  play it. It feels so much slower and less beefy than my other tanks with incarnate powers and IOs making worlds of difference. Which is kinda ironic with stone being ultimate beef. 

 

I have no idea how to fix it or make it better without changing the feel of the set.... and here I am just sad again because my favorite tanking set is now my least favorite. 😕

Edited by Pizzamurai
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I didn't take stone armour for the obvious reasons.  Appearance.  And 'slow boots' where x3 swift is not enough.  And the lack of alt granite look.  And the slowness of that form also.

 

I never really noticed it lacking defensive 'oomph' on live.

 

But I went with WP as an alt roll on live...to test WP as it was knew and re-rolled as a WP on HC.

 

I've gone with Stone melee and Stone Epic set.  I'm using WP's unstoppable and I can get higher S&L res' that way.  I tie the recharge to hasten.  All on SO's so far at L49.

 

Like the Stone Epics.  Pillars of salt, Stone ground spike foot stomp, stone cage hold and the stone slow mat.  Great stuff.  Adds a level of control to this tank rather than the predictable Fight Pool route.

 

While I'm waiting for the unstoppable, I use tank epic stone controls to slow the incoming S*L damage.

 

And use the AoEs to grind the mob done.  And the stone biscuit footstomp to disorient them.  And them tremor AoE smashing etc.

 

It opened a new way to enjoy this tank.

 

Be nice to have Stone Armour revisited with magma and crystal looks and the Granite armour form.  Maybe even a volcanic rock fire DoT toggle...?  As part of the armour.  Or a 'Burn' mat from fire as in volcanic rock/magma?

 

Really liven up the stone armour set.

 

Azrael.

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So, a thought regarding the movement restrictions stone suffers from, electric's grounded only provides it's status protection while on the ground, why not reduce the jump and run penalties but make rooted only provide it's regen/-end resist on the ground and cut the stat protection in half if you're in the air, while granite could loose 1/3rd it's resist/defense/status protection in the air and provide full values on the ground.

I'd also say to reduce but not fully remove the penalties, I'm thinking make rooted -35% speed (rather than the current -90%)  which would cancel out unslotted swift and -50% jump (not fully canceling hurdles 166% unslotted). Granite I'm thinking could get +15% unenhanceable run speed on the ground to signify the momentum of a ton of rocks moving along, but another -60% jump height (should be about 5 foot jump height with both and unslotted hurdle). Also reduce -recharge to 15%-25% and drop the -damage entirely.

 

And I'd also love some alternate looks for granite, though with my understanding they might have to be separate mutually exclusive powers since it replaces your model rather than covering it. 

And on mutually exclusive alternates for granite, maybe one that doesn't alter your character model at all and rather than the standard effect boosts the other armors in the set so that if you're running them all they're about as good as slotted granite would be.

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  • 4 months later

The first issue is that people are looking at Stone Armor as saying "Why isn't this more like Invulnverability?" The second issue is more generalized as people looking at ATs and saying "Why is X more like Y?" I love that Stone Armor is whacky and pro-con centric, I have a Bio Armor brute and I've basically hit a wall in that I say to myself "Why play anything besides Bio, it's better in every way." Not with Stone Armor, it's give and take.

 

So what's good about Stone Armor, more specifically what's good about Granite Armor? Granite Armor is every armor and aura rolled into one minus what's unique to those sets like Energy Aura's +recharge, Bio Armor's stance dancing, Invuln's +ToHit, etc. Granite Armor can only really be paired with leadership, fighting, Rooted, and Stone Skin; now here's the important part... it only /needs/ to be paired with weave, rooted, and stone skin to cap out massive mitigation even on a Brute. So what's that mean? Slots, slots, slots. My biggest weakness on my Bio Armor is a serious lack of slots and having to make sacrifices at every turn; to get my +ToHit I have to use Cross Cut and then Soul Drain to make sure I don't get misses. Granite Armor rolls all those dozens of toggles into one. How many toggles does WP have running at once... 6 or 7? Granite Armor, Rooted, and Weave (Mud Pots but that's not related to mitigation).

 

Yes Stone Armor has -30% damage, yes it has -60% recharge, but a Brute easily overcomes the damage debuff and you can slot to get around base recharge. Stone Armor is not designed to support dps, but you can work around it to get back to being useful with massive mitigation. I'm running a Spines/Stone Brute and have the luxury to take and slot all my AoE. Recharge doesn't even factor in because of my two PBAoE toggles and at least one AoE is always ready for use. I'm certainly not a rolling ball of death, but it's like playing a tanker that can actually do real damage.

 

Now, the last and key issue; getting around. The OP posted this a while ago, so not sure how Teleportation worked back in 2019 but now days it has Combat Teleport and Teleport, used together you can get around well enough. Not every map will play nicely though, toggling off rooted and granite armor can be done just eat a purple/orange in case you run into a surprise group, otherwise stay with your team and play the game how it was intended. CoH evolved over the years away from typical MMO trinity; doms, MMs, Brutes, and even scrappers can manage the alpha just fine with the right support. If you're struggling when you turn off rooted, you may not have a diverse enough team or are playing solo. If playing solo, then you're going against the grain and not playing the game as it was intended and as such will constantly run into hurdles; it's /your/ job to make your unorthodox concept work, not the devs.

 

Basically play Stone Armor as a delayed start tanker in teams if teleporting is too much to manage, everything will be fine, and most of the time Granite Armor's massive mitigation isn't required for most groups, mainly just on TFs and those at high levels tend to be densely packed with mobs that you won't need to drop your toggles.

 

Edit: I actually came up with a good solution to traveling around on a Stoner. Get stealth, and use that while darting around outside of your toggles and pop them back up when you run into a group; you get to run around with anything you please, and you won't have to struggle with face pulling. You can even slot a +Stealth enhancement into a power to save taking stealth from the Stealth pool, though honestly I skipped anything I could and anything that didn't work alongside Granite Armor so number of powers isn't an issue.

Edited by DazyD
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Putting in my two cents here:

I played a SS/Stone brute on live (Erik the Viking on Victory server), probably my most played tank style class. I love it completely. Flaws and all. I have thousands of hours of experience on it, spread amongst farming, tf's, and other content. When CoV came back, it was the first toon I rolled, and I have I think 3 of them.
 

The latest is a stone/elec tanker (Doom's Stoner, Torchbearer) I made on a whim, specifically to NOT need SB. I have capped movement speed, and pretty close to capped recharge. With no incarnates (except for alpha slot that gives move speed) it *runs* amazingly well. Half slotted. He is definitely a meme toon, but I love him so much.

 

Some highlights for you:
Capped Movement (42.6 mph in granite, 36 ish with rooted, SUPER FAST for a granite, basically as fast as a level 1ish toon with sprint and ninja/beast/athletic run)
Teleportation (for getting around outside missions, obviously)
Capped Defense (except the obvious psi)
Capped Resistances (ditto, without Earths Embrace)

Stealth (that's right. concealment pool works in granite)

Recharge will be capped (it IS capped with an ageless)

Decent END management, easily kept up with the odd blue

TONS of AOE damage from ELEC, plus cross punch from the fighting pool (hilarious)

Damage is good, not great but thats to be expected.

With a few keybinds he's a complete monster. Is he efficient? Not particularly. Can he farm? Yes. Well? Meh that's not what he's built for. Can he tank Lord Recluse? Also yes.

Most importantly... is he fun?
For me, YES!!!!!!!!!!


Could it use some changes? Depends on what and where. I think if you change Stone Armor too much, you take what it is meant to be away and replace it with something more generic, which I personally would hate to see. Everything on Homecoming is becoming generic, and I hate it. The flair and individuality that made each build unique is slowly being chipped away by a new playerbase that wants CoV to play more like some other game it's not. I've considered looking for a new server to play on that's more like how it was on live for just that reason. Will I move? Maybe, but I love this community so much.

A thought for the devs, if you want to keep changing and improving the game, keep the spirit of it alive. Maybe consider creating a way for players to choose between the proverbial "new coke or old coke" classes. If you are going to change ANY class, just create a new powerset with a similar theme but run differently. You could leave Stone Armor as it is, with a few basic balance changes here and there, and create a whole new powerset that has the spirit of Stone Armor but functions differently, like having the different toggles stack and getting rid of Granite Armor entirely. You've already shown that you can create amazing powersets. Be creative, but don't sully the spirit of the game we fought for SO LONG to get back.

YMMV, just my two bits.

Also, if you need any help with a build, hit me up. I'm always up for helping 🙂
 

Edited by crazysaneman
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28 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

This zombie granite thread has been necrobumped Twice?  

< shrug emote >

 

It makes sense to keep the discussion all in the same thread. Besides, it's not like Stone Armor has been updated since the first post.

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If you'd rather be Lame-O the Wonder Clown instead of Homelander then you're playing the wrong game.

 

Thank you doesn't even come close to the gratitude I have for the Homecoming developers for resurrecting Paragon City.

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7 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

< shrug emote >

 

It makes sense to keep the discussion all in the same thread. Besides, it's not like Stone Armor has been updated since the first post.

Your second point is an excellent one.

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14 hours ago, crazysaneman said:

YMMV, just my two bits.

I love seeing posts like this!

 

Curious though, do you not find it weird that stone is set up to basically not have half the set get deleted once you get to the ultimate power, and until then it's kinda meh? That is my ultimate issue with the set as a whole in that it is basically Granite, not "Stone Armor".

Edited by Galaxy Brain
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  • 2 months later

Just bumping for more visibility on Stone Armor's issues -- Rooted is much better now, but the other powers still have serious issues. 

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Posted (edited)

Do they? I think they just need to bump the values up a smidge, now that I’ve played a Granite-less tank. Brimstone should be 30% not 25%, etc. Otherwise feeling just fine now.

Edited by arcane
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Maybe Granite should be the Tier 1

 

Weakened of course. 

 

Then most of the other powers could be passive additions to bring Granite up to its amazing level.

 

That and give Granite a min jump height.  Cause da'am. 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

Maybe Granite should be the Tier 1

 

Weakened of course. 

 

Then most of the other powers could be passive additions to bring Granite up to its amazing level.

 

That and give Granite a min jump height.  Cause da'am. 

 

 

We’ve just been given the ability to play a mobile offensive Stone Tanker for the first time after however many years. And now this. If I wasn’t on my phone and on the go you’d be getting a shiny mob-with-pitchforks GIF.

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3 hours ago, arcane said:

We’ve just been given the ability to play a mobile offensive Stone Tanker for the first time after however many years. And now this. If I wasn’t on my phone and on the go you’d be getting a shiny mob-with-pitchforks GIF.

Can you jump a curb yet?

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28 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Can you jump a curb yet?

Yes, you can now both jump and have toggled status protection with stone armor for the first time ever, unless I’m forgetting something about the launch days. Why else would I have finally made one.

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1 hour ago, MTeague said:

One of these weekends I'll need to dust off my Elec/Stone Broot. He's still sitting at lvl 1 in Breakout.

The recent revamp HAS cleared him for actual play. 

 

I just keep hoping for any version of Granite where I can actually see shreds of my costume instead of a DE mob.

 

 

Are even Aura effects visible during Granite? 

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4 hours ago, arcane said:

Yes, you can now both jump and have toggled status protection with stone armor for the first time ever, unless I’m forgetting something about the launch days. Why else would I have finally made one.

It had status protection already.

 

But thanks.  I missed the curb jumping part of this change.  

 

My suggestion on Granite wasn't to weaken it, but instead to end the bipolar nature of the set.  Low levels its one kind of set, high levels its a Granite based set. 

 

I figured make it granite based 1 to 50, so it plays the same throughout.  

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