Dual Pistols and Procs

[Midnight Mystique]

So dual pistol attacks can take quite a few different procs thanks to the various ammo affects - but do those procs only work when the appropriate ammo is chosen, or do they always work. The specific case I have been considering is slotting achilles heel -res procs in empty clips and/or bullet rain. Will the proc only fire when using standard ammo, as that is when you get the defense debuffs, or will they have a chance to fire all the time?

[Sunsette]

Procs work even if the appropriate ammo to trigger a secondary effect is not slotted. 

[Midnight Mystique]

27 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

Procs work even if the appropriate ammo to trigger a secondary effect is not slotted. 

Cool to know, thanks for the response Sunsette

[oldskool]

I can confirm this from both my DP Sentinel and Corruptor. 

 

Empty Clips is a tough sell for Achilles' Heel on a Sentinel though.  First off, you have the Area Factor lowering proc chance.  The saving grace for that on the other DP ATs is the target cap.  Sentinels will only hit 6 with EC.  This means you have fewer rolls of the dice on an already limited chance of an event. 

Bullet Rain has a higher target cap (10) and it works nicely with these kinds of proc abuses.  Force Feedback for triggering recharge is pretty great here.  Hail of Bullets is similar but since it is a T9 it has an even higher chance to trigger procs from the long base recharge. 

 

Piercing Rounds gets special mention since its AF is lower than normal for an AoE, it isn't negatively impacted by range enhancements, and checks a lot of boxes for procs (long base recharge, long animation, etc). 

[SmalltalkJava]

i have a question.   Do multi-proc'ing attacks on a sentinel get better results in regards to straight up damage vs putting in damage IO's

[oldskool]

12 hours ago, SmalltalkJava said:

i have a question.   Do multi-proc'ing attacks on a sentinel get better results in regards to straight up damage vs putting in damage IO's

Short answer: Yes. 

Tongue-in-cheek answer: Why not both? 

 

Longish (or just straight up irrelevant and way to much of a ramble) answer:

 

TL;DR caveat: I could be misunderstanding the question with the giant response below.  Maybe that is because not all Dual Pistol powers can accept 6 slots worth of procs.  Either way I feel that the original query is a big question to ask and it is not one I would answer in a vacuum.  

 

A Nucleolus Exposure + level 50 IO is going to get you 75.13% damage modification without enhancing either.  Enhancement Diversification will kick in before 100% and further efforts are going to lower returns on investment.  Thunderstrike 3 pc nets you some minor set bonuses that can have some value plus 47% endurance discount on the power it is slotted in.  That's 73.78% damage and also slightly more accuracy.  Under Musculature Core Alpha, that is 118% for the first configuration and 117% for the second.  Realistically, no one is going to invest in a Hamidon O without adding some levels to it or use a default 50 common IO.  You'd want to +5 the latter at a minimum.  That's 86-88% damage modification normally and 125% under Musculature Core Alpha.  That's not insignificant per power at all.  

That's not where the real damage comes from though.  It's the damage procs.  Pistols has a base damage at level 50 of 52.  The first level 50 IO will modify that by 42%, a second 83.32% and a third 99%.  I've read some of your posts, and I know I am not expressing anything new to you here.  This is just illustration. 😉 A basic damage proc is PPM 3.5 at 71 damage and a purple is PPM 4.5 and 107 damage.  The baseline IO damage procs have to compete against that first and second damage modification since those net the largest increase (and could be enhanced further).  However, that doesn't use up all the slots.  So there is little reason to not add damage procs past that point.  Pistols has around a 30% chance per activation to trigger a PPM 3.5 proc.  My attack chain can use it between my other 2 attacks (every 1.848 seconds) or after them (every 3.696 seconds).  That is a lot of Chuck a Lot of Dice opportunities to make more than 1 proc trigger.  Each activation of Pistols is functionally allowing it a chance to critically hit seeing as how the damage per proc exceeds the damage of the baseline power.  For Suppressive Fire its even better.  Suppressive Fire has an animation and recharge combination that yields a rough 70% chance to trigger a purple PPM 4.5 proc at 107 dmg per trigger.  The base damage of SF is only 89.  SF can take TWO purple procs.  There are pretty good odds that every activation will trigger at least 1 and nearly a 50/50 chance at 2 purple procs.  The odds are obviously going to be lower for each 3.5 proc, but it isn't unlikely to have multiple go off relatively frequently.  That's considerable damage over time and it certainly more damage than a shift from 83% to 99% damage modification.   This is also assuming virtually no recharge mods in these two powers.  

 

The above feels it is worth stating just to talk about general damage interaction.  It is also worth noting how modifications interact with the damage cap.  All powers do 100% damage by default which also counts towards the cap, per Paragon Wiki.  All additional damage modifiers count towards the cap too be it from enhancements or global IO set bonuses.  Damage procs are separate damage calculations on top of whatever the power brings to the table.  That's fundamentally why damage procs work so well.  

I don't think that is the REAL question though.  Straight up damage is trivially easy to enhance in two slots.  I think the underlying question is really about the difference between a complete, or nearly complete, IO set in an attack vs turning a power into a Frankenslot buzzsaw. 

 

Not all Sentinel combos will be created equally.  I know, duh.  It is really worth stating though.  As awesome as reading the Silly Sentinel Tricks thread is, not all Sentinel combos can do that.  That same logic gets down to more granular pairings too.  Not every Dual Pistols build will have the ability to maximize damage since they might have different weights for pursuing defense.  That is also a fundamental Blaster build consideration (and for some Defender/Corruptors too).  

Any set that can get you at least a baseline 15% defense (Ninjutsu, Super Reflexes, Energy Aura, Ice Armor) can be built to the soft-cap of 45% (or exceed it).  You can get there by stacking IO sets and other powers like Weave/Maneuvers.  You should be able to free up at least 2 powers for multiple procs without impairing their core damage enhancement.  That makes a real safe character that can mulch enemies all day long.  Even powersets like Archery, Fire, or Psi that don't have a lot of procs can still include at least 1 per attack without hurting their defense.  

Some other defensive sets that build on Resistance will likely want to layer other mitigation like defense.  This means you need to start weighing the opportunity costs of damage vs defense.  That decision making process is almost exclusive to a discussion on primary sets only though.  When you add in the potential for Epic pool choices like Char or Dominate the damage spectrum changes.  You can use your primary to mule defense, and still improve base damage, while squeezing multiple damage procs into an Epic Hold.  That's a big damage increase as some of those holds can yield a 80+% chance to trigger a even a PPM 3.5 proc.  Odds are pretty good multiple procs go off every activation.  

 

As always, every build is about compromise.  Dual Pistols as a set can make great use of procs because the attack rotation can be simple at 3 powers cycled every 4.884 seconds.  Even though those powers do not carry a 90% chance to trigger a proc you attack so frequently that it doesn't matter.  If you wanted to build for more defense in those attacks, then you could potentially weave an Epic hold that can virtually guarantee extra damage.  Those Epic holds are also great places for Decimation: Chance for Build-Up which gives you 5 seconds (exactly enough for 3 attacks) to gain a substantial damage increase.  That specific proc loses value at the damage cap, but it is a nice idea. 

Edited August 16, 2019 by oldskool

[SmalltalkJava]

3 hours ago, oldskool said:

Short answer: Yes. 

Tongue-in-cheek answer: Why not both? 

 

Longish (or just straight up irrelevant and way to much of a ramble) answer:

 

TL;DR caveat: I could be misunderstanding the question with the giant response below.  Maybe that is because not all Dual Pistol powers can accept 6 slots worth of procs.  Either way I feel that the original query is a big question to ask and it is not one I would answer in a vacuum.  

 

A Nucleolus Exposure + level 50 IO is going to get you 75.13% damage modification without enhancing either.  Enhancement Diversification will kick in before 100% and further efforts are going to lower returns on investment.  Thunderstrike 3 pc nets you some minor set bonuses that can have some value plus 47% endurance discount on the power it is slotted in.  That's 73.78% damage and also slightly more accuracy.  Under Musculature Core Alpha, that is 118% for the first configuration and 117% for the second.  Realistically, no one is going to invest in a Hamidon O without adding some levels to it or use a default 50 common IO.  You'd want to +5 the latter at a minimum.  That's 86-88% damage modification normally and 125% under Musculature Core Alpha.  That's not insignificant per power at all.  

That's not where the real damage comes from though.  It's the damage procs.  Pistols has a base damage at level 50 of 52.  The first level 50 IO will modify that by 42%, a second 83.32% and a third 99%.  I've read some of your posts, and I know I am not expressing anything new to you here.  This is just illustration. 😉 A basic damage proc is PPM 3.5 at 71 damage and a purple is PPM 4.5 and 107 damage.  The baseline IO damage procs have to compete against that first and second damage modification since those net the largest increase (and could be enhanced further).  However, that doesn't use up all the slots.  So there is little reason to not add damage procs past that point.  Pistols has around a 30% chance per activation to trigger a PPM 3.5 proc.  My attack chain can use it between my other 2 attacks (every 1.848 seconds) or after them (every 3.696 seconds).  That is a lot of Chuck a Lot of Dice opportunities to make more than 1 proc trigger.  Each activation of Pistols is functionally allowing it a chance to critically hit seeing as how the damage per proc exceeds the damage of the baseline power.  For Suppressive Fire its even better.  Suppressive Fire has an animation and recharge combination that yields a rough 70% chance to trigger a purple PPM 4.5 proc at 107 dmg per trigger.  The base damage of SF is only 89.  SF can take TWO purple procs.  There are pretty good odds that every activation will trigger at least 1 and nearly a 50/50 chance at 2 purple procs.  The odds are obviously going to be lower for each 3.5 proc, but it isn't unlikely to have multiple go off relatively frequently.  That's considerable damage over time and it certainly more damage than a shift from 83% to 99% damage modification.   This is also assuming virtually no recharge mods in these two powers.  

 

The above feels it is worth stating just to talk about general damage interaction.  It is also worth noting how modifications interact with the damage cap.  All powers do 100% damage by default which also counts towards the cap, per Paragon Wiki.  All additional damage modifiers count towards the cap too be it from enhancements or global IO set bonuses.  Damage procs are separate damage calculations on top of whatever the power brings to the table.  That's fundamentally why damage procs work so well.  

I don't think that is the REAL question though.  Straight up damage is trivially easy to enhance in two slots.  I think the underlying question is really about the difference between a complete, or nearly complete, IO set in an attack vs turning a power into a Frankenslot buzzsaw. 

 

Not all Sentinel combos will be created equally.  I know, duh.  It is really worth stating though.  As awesome as reading the Silly Sentinel Tricks thread is, not all Sentinel combos can do that.  That same logic gets down to more granular pairings too.  Not every Dual Pistols build will have the ability to maximize damage since they might have different weights for pursuing defense.  That is also a fundamental Blaster build consideration (and for some Defender/Corruptors too).  

Any set that can get you at least a baseline 15% defense (Ninjutsu, Super Reflexes, Energy Aura, Ice Armor) can be built to the soft-cap of 45% (or exceed it).  You can get there by stacking IO sets and other powers like Weave/Maneuvers.  You should be able to free up at least 2 powers for multiple procs without impairing their core damage enhancement.  That makes a real safe character that can mulch enemies all day long.  Even powersets like Archery, Fire, or Psi that don't have a lot of procs can still include at least 1 per attack without hurting their defense.  

Some other defensive sets that build on Resistance will likely want to layer other mitigation like defense.  This means you need to start weighing the opportunity costs of damage vs defense.  That decision making process is almost exclusive to a discussion on primary sets only though.  When you add in the potential for Epic pool choices like Char or Dominate the damage spectrum changes.  You can use your primary to mule defense, and still improve base damage, while squeezing multiple damage procs into an Epic Hold.  That's a big damage increase as some of those holds can yield a 80+% chance to trigger a even a PPM 3.5 proc.  Odds are pretty good multiple procs go off every activation.  

 

As always, every build is about compromise.  Dual Pistols as a set can make great use of procs because the attack rotation can be simple at 3 powers cycled every 4.884 seconds.  Even though those powers do not carry a 90% chance to trigger a proc you attack so frequently that it doesn't matter.  If you wanted to build for more defense in those attacks, then you could potentially weave an Epic hold that can virtually guarantee extra damage.  Those Epic holds are also great places for Decimation: Chance for Build-Up which gives you 5 seconds (exactly enough for 3 attacks) to gain a substantial damage increase.  That specific proc loses value at the damage cap, but it is a nice idea. 

Thank you for the explanation.  My kryptonite is math.   I read the PPM thread and other threads and it goes above my head.   I am attempting to learn general concepts that I hope can apply with a broad paint brush, with the self understanding that it won't apply in many situations.   But it gives me a place to start from.    I see people like you, Bopper, Redlynne, Hjarki,  Sir Myshkin and many others going over the formulas and it is beyond my abilities.   There is so much information in the forums it is hard to get a grasp on all of it.   I forget things that I read just a day ago.    I should really try to start and keep a note document where I can put in concepts and nuggets of information that I read.

 

[Six-Six]

On 8/16/2019 at 6:34 PM, oldskool said:

Longish (or just straight up irrelevant and way to much of a ramble) answer:

This right here is why you rock, Mr. Oldskool sir.