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Weylin

Allow allies to pass through henchmen freely

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It's a huge problem in confined spaces, especially caves.

Allies need to be able to walk through henchmen completely unimpeded the way the mastermind can.

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Total +1 from me.

I just had to ditch and rebuild a character with a whole different AT because of this issue...

 

After spending an afternoon watching Ivory's demon minions physically shove her scrapper partner away from his targets, or push the targets away from him, or block the goons from ever closing with him in the first place, I just said enough was enough and rebuilt her as a Defender. Mastermind pets are all obnoxious in tight spaces, but the large demon models just compound the problem, making them a menace even in a large, open room. <_<

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Taker of screenshots. Player of creepy Oranbegans.

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Speaking as a Mastermind (especially Robotics) who is scrupulously conscientious in actively sending my pets out of team-mates' way, clearing doors and narrow spaces as a #1 priority ...

YES, PLEASE...!!

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Global Handle: @PaxArcana ... Home servers on Live: Freedom Virtue ... Home Server on HC: Torchbearer


Archetype: Casual Gamer ... Powersets:  Forum Melee / Neckbeard ... Kryptonite:  Altoholism

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Not MM-specific, but this is something I thought of adding to the thread (which I now can't find) about what WoW does better than CoH: the decision to make all characters, player and NPC alike, non-solid. Granted, the main reason Blizzard made the choice was to prevent griefing, i.e. jackholes purposely blocking important things.

 

While "solid" characters are more realistic, what isn't realistic is seeing them from a camera somewhere behind them. That factor means that you don't really get an accurate idea of the distance between your toon and the enemy toon when moving into melee range. I've lost count of the number of times I've run up to a group of enemies and bounced off the first one into a wall or corner, and been immediately surrounded. Now the camera is in the same position as my head, I can't see my character, I really can't even see the enemies because their models are now clipping into the camera, and I'll be frantically trying to attack but failing because I've been knocked down, and I can't see that I've been knocked down. And I can't see the enemies well enough to figure out if I can move in any direction.

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All NPCs in FFXIV as well as player characters have no collision. which also helps with gameplay and minimizes the frustration of trying to position yourself only to be blocked by the boss or an enemy.

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Honestly, I love collision detection and very much dislike when it's not present.  It makes far more sense to me that a hero (in whatever game) can plant themselves in a doorway and keep foes from coming through it.  Collision detection is one of the things I've always held up as something CoH does very right.  And if that means that I have to fight demons to get through a doorway every once in a while, I have zero problem with that. 

 

If MM pets can be made pass through I'd be fine with that.  But I'd be very sad if collision detection were removed completely. 

Edited by Sura
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Collision detection is one of those things which works great thematically and -TERRIBLY- for actual gameplay quality.

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I love the TP option in Mystic fly (I know not everyone takes this but most of all my chars are magic soooo)...if I get blocked by pets in a doorway or for anything pet blockish I click and TP right through them. 

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FYI We saw a response on the discord for this issue. No action was suggested but it may grant insight to challenges of changing it:

Quote

Weylin Today at 2:08 AM
Would it be an easy fix to allow allies to freely pass through henchmen? I don't know if it's as simple as settling a flag, or if it's some deeply rooted hard-coded nonsense
it's somewhat useful being able to wall off enemies from reaching you, but in team play in cramped quarters it's an absolute headache
 
Leandro Today at 3:09 AM
@Weylin it's deeply rooted hard-coded nonsense, but I think it can be done for all players; checking for allies at the scope the code runs is probably a no-go.
 
Weylin Today at 3:33 AM
This just makes me wonder if allowing stacking and pass-through is a good or bad thing
i wonder why the mastermind can pass through their henchmen but other players cannot
 
Leandro Today at 4:40 AM
It is an explicit check. If an entity is marked as pushable, and you own that entity, it doesn't prevent you from colliding with it.
the only entities marked as pushable are henchmen.

 

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On 8/14/2019 at 1:14 AM, ZeeHero said:

yeah pets having collision with players is a major issue. makes people not want to include MMs in mission groups.

That is the #1 reason why I am not a fan of MMs.  It's annoying when you're trying to get to the glowie in a cave, only to be blocked by a pack of demons or trying to level up at a trainer, but a roving gang of bots push you out of the way.

 

On another note...MM's, why you no dismiss pets when you no need them?

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20 minutes ago, Nexys said:

On another note...MM's, why you no dismiss pets when you no need them?

Because it's a pain and a major endurance drain to re-summon and re-supply them.

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24 minutes ago, Nexys said:

On another note...MM's, why you no dismiss pets when you no need them?

I wonder if those MM players have adapted to the New Age of pet summoning cycles: it's fast and easy nowadays!

 

When MMs were shiny brand new?  You used to have to Equip/Upgrade your pets one at a time.  Literally, one individual pet at a time.

My main was a Robo/FF/Leadership, "my pets do all the heavy lifting" sort of MM.  I'd summon my robots, then: Equip, Upgrade, Bubble ... Equip, Upgrade, Bubble ... Equip, Upgrade, Bubble ... Equip, Upgrade, Bubble ... Equip, Upgrade, Bubble ... Equip, Upgrade, Bubble ... Toggle, Toggle, Toggle ... and finally, FINALLY, be ready to roll.  I had my Equip and upgrade powers five slotted - three Recharges, two Endurance Reductions - to be able to get that done in a reasonable amount of time.  With three-slotted Stamina.  And I'd still have to chew a blue inspiration or two.

But now?  Summon all three, Equip once, Upgrade once, Bubble once, WTH are we just standing around for, GO GO GO!!

...

If they haven't cottoned to the new paradigm, then they may be keeping the pets around to avoid the absolutely gargantuan-ly tedious hassle of resummoning those pets.

(Of course, I also remember when you HAD to do that, every time you entered a new map ...)

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Global Handle: @PaxArcana ... Home servers on Live: Freedom Virtue ... Home Server on HC: Torchbearer


Archetype: Casual Gamer ... Powersets:  Forum Melee / Neckbeard ... Kryptonite:  Altoholism

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3 minutes ago, GM Capocollo said:

Because it's a pain and a major endurance drain to re-summon and re-supply them.

That's understandable.  I think it would bother me less if more MM players would park their pets somewhere out of the way when they are going to trainers or in to stores.  It's the non-combat situations, the ones when pets push you out of the way or block the doors to buildings, that really get to me.

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6 minutes ago, GM Capocollo said:

Because it's a pain and a major endurance drain to re-summon and re-supply them.

And see, here's a key example.

It's no longer a pain, Capo.  Summon all your pets, use one of your upgrading powers - and ALL your pets are affected by it.  Poof.

I use a variation of the old NumPad pet controls - I have a "summon mode" version, I get in and out of it with the / key.  1 (summon tier I pets), 2 (summon tier II pets), 3 (summon tier III pets), 4 (target nearest pet), 5 (upgrade A), 6 (upgrade B).  Optionally, 7 8 9 for buffs, like a Forcefield Bubble.

It's really that easy.  Especially with the new location-based power-execution /command.  🙂

Edited by PaxArcana

Global Handle: @PaxArcana ... Home servers on Live: Freedom Virtue ... Home Server on HC: Torchbearer


Archetype: Casual Gamer ... Powersets:  Forum Melee / Neckbeard ... Kryptonite:  Altoholism

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It's still a pain.  I don't like having to spend 5 actions before I can jump back into the fight, especially when it means I'm gasping for endurance for my secondaries.

Edited by GM Capocollo
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10 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

And see, here's a key example.

It's no longer a pain, Capo.  Summon all your pets, use one of your upgrading powers - and ALL your pets are affected by it.  Poof.

I use a variation of the old NumPad pet controls - I have a "summon mode" version, I get in and out of it with the / key.  1 (summon tier I pets), 2 (summon tier II pets), 3 (summon tier III pets), 4 (target nearest pet), 5 (upgrade A), 6 (upgrade B).  Optionally, 7 8 9 for buffs, like a Forcefield Bubble.

It's really that easy.  Especially with the new location-based power-execution /command.  🙂

 

Meanwhile, you've just spent two minutes summoning and equipping your pets, are now low on endurance, and your teammates have already reached the end of the map and are fighting the AV.

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... do you not pop an EndRedux into your upgrade powers' default slot?  😕

Maybe it's that you didn't play MMs in Issues 6 and 7, so you never experienced the bad-old-days of resummoning?

 

Every mission, EVERY MISSION, my 32+ Robo/FF mastermind:
 

  • Summon Battle Drones
  • Summon Protector Bots
  • Summon Assault Bot
  • Equip Protector 1  (I started with the ProtBots so they would get going with their bubbles ASAP)
  • Upgrade Protector 1
  • Equip Protector 2
  • Upgrade Protector 2
  • Equip Drone 1
  • Upgrade Drone 1
  • Equip Drone 2
  • Upgrade Drone 2
  • Equip Drone 3
  • Upgrade Drone 3
  • Equip Assault
  • Upgrade Assault
  • :: REST ::
  • ... time passes ...
  • ... time passes ...
  • ... time passes ...
  • FF-Bubble Assault
  • FF-Bubble Protector 1
  • FF-Bubble Protector 2
  • FF-Bubble Drone 1
  • FF-Bubble Drone 2
  • FF-Bubble Drone 3
  • Toggle: Dispersion
  • Toggle: Tactics
  • Toggle: Maneuvers
  • Toggle: Assault
  • ...
  • Begin actually playing.


Whereas, NOW ...?

  • Summon Battle Drones
  • Summon Protector Bots
  • Summon Assault Bots
  • Equip
  • Upgrade
  • Bubble
  • Toggle
  • Toggle
  • Toggle
  • Toggle
  • ...
  • Commence butt-kicking

Seriously, the second sequence is SO much shorter, I just cannot conceive of it being "a hassle".  26 actions (and a delay for END recuperation), versus 10 actions (and NO delay) ... and that's at level 32+, with a full Leadership pool.  At lower levels, the difference is even more dramatic.


Global Handle: @PaxArcana ... Home servers on Live: Freedom Virtue ... Home Server on HC: Torchbearer


Archetype: Casual Gamer ... Powersets:  Forum Melee / Neckbeard ... Kryptonite:  Altoholism

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I remember those days.  I had five Masterminds, three of them before Issue 13.  That still doesn't mean that respawning and re-equipping your pets for every mission today still wouldn't be an unnecessary pain in the rear.  Especially when you team with speedrunners who will not wait for you.

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3 hours ago, Apparition said:

two minutes

/

1

three second pause for animation

2

three second pause for animation

3

three second pause for animation

4

5
6

three second pause for queued power

7
/


Even at two entire seconds per keypress (vastly overstating how long they would take, that's ... ::counts up:: ... 21 seconds.  And my Endurance is irrelevant, as I won't be using it for the rest of the mission.

Nor is anyone asking MMs to dismiss pets EVERY time they leave a mission (though, personally, I _do_, just because I don't want to drag the pets through the entire zone on the way to the next door).

Just, if you are going to a store or a trainer (which is not "a mission"), be courteous to your fellow players.  It's a direct equivalent of asking people to turn off their bright-and-loud auto-firing PBAoEs at trainers etc.

Edited by PaxArcana

Global Handle: @PaxArcana ... Home servers on Live: Freedom Virtue ... Home Server on HC: Torchbearer


Archetype: Casual Gamer ... Powersets:  Forum Melee / Neckbeard ... Kryptonite:  Altoholism

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Since removing collisions is difficult to do, could dismissing henchmen be made to reduce the cooldown time for summoning more?

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14 hours ago, ZeeHero said:

if only pets had no collision no one would be having this discussion.

I want pets to have collision for enemy NPCs.  It can be useful using pets to block off a doorway, and limit how many enemies can get LOS on my MM during an ambush, when playing solo ... 🙂


Global Handle: @PaxArcana ... Home servers on Live: Freedom Virtue ... Home Server on HC: Torchbearer


Archetype: Casual Gamer ... Powersets:  Forum Melee / Neckbeard ... Kryptonite:  Altoholism

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