Disable SG base passcode access in PvP zones

[macskull]

Title says it all, mostly, but... one of the I25 changes that got snuck in kind of under the radar is a slash command to access an SG base via passcode. This command is awesome but can be easily abused in a PvP zone. There's already precedent for making certain powers disabled in a PvP environment (Ouroboros Portal) and for slash commands as well (/ah).

[RubberDougie]

YES

[MunkiLord]

Good suggestion. But I have a question, why is /ah disabled in PvP zones? I feel like having the auction window open would just hinder the person playing, and that would be their fault. I'm not against it being disabled, just curious as the reason.

[Razor Cure]

7 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

Good suggestion. But I have a question, why is /ah disabled in PvP zones? I feel like having the auction window open would just hinder the person playing, and that would be their fault. I'm not against it being disabled, just curious as the reason.

I assume for people buying inspirations in while in teh zone.

[Robotech_Master]

You know, the LFG queue teleporter can get you out of PVP zones, too...

 

(I've heard that devs have said the enter base from passcode command wasn't actually intended to be used by players, and it will sooner or later be disabled for everybody except GMs.)

[Teirusu]

10 hours ago, Robotech_Master said:

You know, the LFG queue teleporter can get you out of PVP zones, too...

 

(I've heard that devs have said the enter base from passcode command wasn't actually intended to be used by players, and it will sooner or later be disabled for everybody except GMs.)

As much as I also have been quite enjoying the passcode command for quick access to basically every where...  It does kinda cheapen things a tiny bit and makes several powers basically redundant.   Like Long Range Teleport and the existing SG teleport power, etc.  If they do remove it, it be nice if they can making it so that the passcode could be passed by macro to the SG base transporter power.

[Robotech_Master]

1 minute ago, Teirusu said:

As much as I also have been quite enjoying the passcode command for quick access to basically every where...  It does kinda cheapen things a tiny bit and makes several powers basically redundant.   Like Long Range Teleport and the existing SG teleport power, etc.  If they do remove it, it be nice if they can making it so that the passcode could be passed by macro to the SG base transporter power.

There are a number of other great ways to get nearly everywhere very fast, you know.

[Mr. Vee]

10 hours ago, Robotech_Master said:

You know, the LFG queue teleporter can get you out of PVP zones, too...

 

(I've heard that devs have said the enter base from passcode command wasn't actually intended to be used by players, and it will sooner or later be disabled for everybody except GMs.)

Noooooo, I'm too attached. and i only found out about it this week. It's allowed me to stay out of the wretched hive of scum and villainy ouro has turned into.

 

But re OP yeah it does seem like it should be disabled for pvp. Though not being a pvp'er i can't imagine why someone would feel better about getting almost killed and zapping away than just getting killed.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Sorry but why? PVP is not a focus of this game, and due to massive balance issues between power sets and AT is basically something only meta gamers tend to do as RPers on non optimal power combos tend to get ganked and griefed  when they dare to explore the pvp zones. Thankfully so few pvpers exist we can usually sneak into bloody bay to get shivans for emergency needs with no issue most days.

 

Next you will be wanting phase shift and the temp power version buyable at P2W removed from pvp because it lets someone negate a gang bang ambush and escape.

 

Frankly not one ounce of energy should ever be spent on anything relating to pvp. It is what it is for those into that sort of thing, and was sodding bad idea to add in the first place. If I had my way the pvp zones would all get turned into pve co op  zones like the RWZ and cim and remove pvp entirely from the game. The nature of power sets, debuffs etc just make pvp no fun for anyone but those making builds meant to exploit the bad design of pvp in this game. Depending on the power sets it can be rather then chess with an equal match the equiv of one player having all pawns and the other all queens. That is the width of the possible gap between ATs and the power sets in pvp in this game.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 8/24/2019 at 12:08 AM, Robotech_Master said:

You know, the LFG queue teleporter can get you out of PVP zones, too...

 

(I've heard that devs have said the enter base from passcode command wasn't actually intended to be used by players, and it will sooner or later be disabled for everybody except GMs.)

This right here better be a rumor and never come to pass. As an SG leader I find it invaluable to quickly get to the base if I am needed by an SG member. It is also highly useful for role players that make use of all these awesome new social cityscape bases folks are making to expand the game world and social RP locales. having to go to a base entrance to access them was lame, and being able to jump from one to another without having to exit is also more immersive then having to exit one base and then re enter through the same portal.

 

I shared passcode macro with my sg mates after I learned it and everyone of them has been so happy about it that removing it would be a huge slap in the face to no few players imo. Its a huge QoL improvement and should not be removed because of QQ from some PVPer.

[Leandro]

That command was never intended to be available to regular players, since it can be used as a death escape mechanic not only in PVP but in challenges like Master of Task Forces. It just hasn't been a priority to fix, but it will happen eventually.

 

The LFG queue is something I hadn't considered before and will need to think about how to address.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Leandro

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

16 minutes ago, Leandro said:

That command was never intended to be available to regular players, since it can be used as a death escape mechanic not only in PVP but in challenges like Master of Task Forces. It just hasn't been a priority to fix, but it will happen eventually.

 

The LFG queue is something I hadn't considered before and will need to think about how to address.

To be honest the master of TF challenge imo is not nearly enough of a reason to deprive players of something that is very useful for social and RP functions. Unless you can make there be a way to directly link SG bases so we dont have to exit and reload to the city and then back to another base it is the tool we currently use to travel between bases directly which for city scape bases that we RPers are building to help expand this game world of ours and basically are doing free developer work because of the love of this game just like you and the HC team, this is the work around.

 

I myself and many others have several bars filled with passcode macro to quickly travel between sections of the expanded city without the hassle of extra load screens. Take this away and your adding 2 load screens between each of these zones that would greatly diminish the feeling of immersion.

[Number Six]

It’s a bug, and the macros are an exploit, sorry.

 

The passcode mechanic is something that was not available on the retail servers but is new here. The macros are using an internal command that was added to be used by the base portal dialog box and it never should have been usable when the dialog is not displayed.

 

There is at least one permanent teleport to base power available, and maybe a day job version as well.

 

It’s possible that in addition to working while next to a base portal, the command can continue to work while inside a base to facilitate direct travel between bases, but it depends on the implementation details.

[justicebeliever]

1 hour ago, Number Six said:

It’s a bug, and the macros are an exploit, sorry.

 

The passcode mechanic is something that was not available on the retail servers but is new here. The macros are using an internal command that was added to be used by the base portal dialog box and it never should have been usable when the dialog is not displayed.

 

There is at least one permanent teleport to base power available, and maybe a day job version as well.

 

It’s possible that in addition to working while next to a base portal, the command can continue to work while inside a base to facilitate direct travel between bases, but it depends on the implementation details.

 

I understand this POV about it being an exploit, and I was suspect when it was first communicated...however, this has been all over the forums for a few weeks now, and in game as well (no doubt discord as well)...it would have been nice to have mentioned this much sooner, because you will cause much unrest when it is removed.  And if you are going to correct it, best to rip the band-aid off and do it sooner than later before more people get used to having it and those that do have it find it more invaluable.

[Number Six]

Yes, it would have been better to do it quickly before it really took off. The timing was really bad because we’ve been focused entirely on getting the 64-bit conversion done, as well as the inevitable bug fixes after go-live that come along with doing something so massive.

 

Generally the policy is that exploit fixes are not pre-announced, even talking about it now in this thread is an exception because of extenuating circumstances.

[Zolgar]

If you're going to fix the slash command, can we at least have the interrupt time of the base transporter reduced, or even removed and make it so we can't activate it if we've been in combat in x seconds? Possibly also it's recharge reduced.

 

The base transporter takes way too long to activate, is interrupted by the drop of a hat, and has a 15 minute recharge timer, making it nearly worthless.

 

The slash command, which I acknowledge should never have been made available to players, is much closer to what the base transporter should be. (Being able to evade death in MO runs and PVP, no recharge time, and no cost is a little too much, I agree)

[Mr. Vee]

There is always the option to just leave it. Please. I'll beg if necessary. I wasn't aware it was an 'exploit' but it seems like it could just fit in nicely with all the other QoL improvements HC has brought. If nothing else it's made ouro avoidable and it was really getting intolerable with all the bc/local trial spam and the portal blocking (seriously people go form trials in DA, people can street sweep while they wait for them to fill.). It's fantastic on TFs too. And let's face it, Master of Badges were already rendered a complete joke by incarnate powers. That just leaves pvp, and if you actually feel better about yourself for not losing because you zipped away before your last hit point was gone you have issues.

 

And re the actual base porters - the long interrupt time combined with them being interrupted by anyone opening an ouro portal within half a zone or a rularuu flapping its wings in another dimension rendered them pretty much trash as it is. Rare are the cases where you can't just run to a base portal before those actually work.

[General Idiot]

That's very disappointing to hear. Is there any chance it might be reconsidered? Perhaps disable it in combat only to fix the actually definitely an exploit uses of it to escape death in pvp or master challenges or whatever else, while leaving it usable for the useful social functions that provide no particular gameplay advantage? Admittedly I have no idea how simple or not so it would be to disable a specific slash command in combat, but I and a great many others will be very sad to see it go if it does.

 

Alternately, a buff to the existing base teleport power if the slash command goes would be a nice compromise. Either not taking thirty minutes to cool down (Which is a real pain if you accidentally click the wrong base, which isn't an issue at all with the slash command) or not taking fifteen seconds to animate or both - I'd make it five minutes and five seconds personally. And probably add bases as an option to Long Range teleport too, if that's possible.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

12 hours ago, Number Six said:

It’s a bug, and the macros are an exploit, sorry.

 

The passcode mechanic is something that was not available on the retail servers but is new here. The macros are using an internal command that was added to be used by the base portal dialog box and it never should have been usable when the dialog is not displayed.

 

There is at least one permanent teleport to base power available, and maybe a day job version as well.

 

It’s possible that in addition to working while next to a base portal, the command can continue to work while inside a base to facilitate direct travel between bases, but it depends on the implementation details.

Look i get what your saying I do, but calling it an exploit is abit much.

 

Lets be honest PVP is a non issue. being able to avoid pvp is a good thing not a bad thing. PVP in this game is just too damn broken and to balance it would break the rest of the game into shards. So who lets admit that the first issue the ability to escape a pvp situation quickly with it isnt a negative nor an exploit but actually a positive for those who only enter a pvp zone to do the pve quests there for useful temp powers.

 

Now lets be honest about the master of challenges and badges that go with them, they are not tied to some super powerful accolade power, they are just about bragging rights. QoL should always come before bragging rights when weighing whether something is a exploit or a bug that actually makes the game better for more players then it negatively impacts.

 

Now if you can indeed make a variant just to allow base to base travel I can see that as a compromise, but also would as was suggested by another radically reduce the cool down on the base tp power. It has always been barely useful, and so easily messed up and wasted as to be almost an insult to the player base in its current form. I honestly feel the same about mission tp. I mean for those who do just want to get to mishes quickly why should it be a big issue to do so?

 

Ultimately these are mainly QOL things. QoL things that make the game more fun because they reduce the non fun parts for many. If this was an exploit that allowed for easy rewards etc Id understand. But there is nothing actually meaningful that is negatively harmed by this / command.

[HeroReborn]

I love the base from passcode, but especially combined with free SG bases with beacons, it does cheapen every other zone traveling power. Why buy the base TP power for 1million when this does better, faster and is free.

 

It can be used without cost, cooldown or animation time to escape from death. Not surprised that it would be used in PvP to runaway fast which would be annoying.

 

It  also does allow for easier rewards, in particular faster TFs meaning faster merits, and overall will bring the merits/time ratio out of whack for people not using the exploit.

[Warlawk]

I just want to chime in and say I would love to see this left as is or the base teleport power with reduced cast time and reduced cooldown.

[Zolgar]

I want to mention that this is an issue in PVP. Even if you don't like PVP (I don't!), you can't just say "well, PvP isn't a big thing so this is a non-issue".

 

If people are exploiting the instant base transport to avoid dying in PvP, thus denying their opponents the rewards for a kill, that's a problem. It doesn't matter that PvP isn't the focus of the game, it doesn't matter that you (and I) don't like pvp. What matters is that people are using this function to hinder other o players fun- and since there is no nonconsensual pvp in City, that's a problem.

 

Imagine someone found a way to use such a command to disrupt RP, or farming, or TFs, or whatever your favorite passtime in City is.

[justicebeliever]

4 minutes ago, Zolgar said:

I want to mention that this is an issue in PVP. Even if you don't like PVP (I don't!), you can't just say "well, PvP isn't a big thing so this is a non-issue".

 

If people are exploiting the instant base transport to avoid dying in PvP, thus denying their opponents the rewards for a kill, that's a problem. It doesn't matter that PvP isn't the focus of the game, it doesn't matter that you (and I) don't like pvp. What matters is that people are using this function to hinder other o players fun- and since there is no nonconsensual pvp in City, that's a problem.

 

Imagine someone found a way to use such a command to disrupt RP, or farming, or TFs, or whatever your favorite passtime in City is.

I agree 100%...PvP is part of the game, and it should be supported to be exploit free as much as any other part of the game...

 

While ultimately, I too am disappointed that this slash command is likely to be removed, it doesn't ruin any part of the game for me...I was able to play and have fun with just a base transporter before I had it, and I'll be able to do the same without it again...

[Apparition]

6 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Lets be honest PVP is a non issue. being able to avoid pvp is a good thing not a bad thing. PVP in this game is just too damn broken and to balance it would break the rest of the game into shards. So who lets admit that the first issue the ability to escape a pvp situation quickly with it isnt a negative nor an exploit but actually a positive for those who only enter a pvp zone to do the pve quests there for useful temp powers.

 

Now lets be honest about the master of challenges and badges that go with them, they are not tied to some super powerful accolade power, they are just about bragging rights. QoL should always come before bragging rights when weighing whether something is a exploit or a bug that actually makes the game better for more players then it negatively impacts.

 

[...] Ultimately these are mainly QOL things. QoL things that make the game more fun because they reduce the non fun parts for many. If this was an exploit that allowed for easy rewards etc Id understand. But there is nothing actually meaningful that is negatively harmed by this / command.

 

Denigrating others' playstyles while trying to champion your own isn't a great look.  Those who know me know that I absolutely loathe PvP with a passion.  I've never entered a PvP zone and never will.  Like it or not though, PvP is part of the game, a part that some people enjoy.  Other people enjoy PvE challenges, thus the Master of badges.

 

Who are you to say "Well, I don't like this part of the game and damn those who do?"

Edited August 26, 2019 by Apparition

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

5 hours ago, Zolgar said:

I want to mention that this is an issue in PVP. Even if you don't like PVP (I don't!), you can't just say "well, PvP isn't a big thing so this is a non-issue".

 

If people are exploiting the instant base transport to avoid dying in PvP, thus denying their opponents the rewards for a kill, that's a problem. It doesn't matter that PvP isn't the focus of the game, it doesn't matter that you (and I) don't like pvp. What matters is that people are using this function to hinder other o players fun- and since there is no nonconsensual pvp in City, that's a problem.

 

Imagine someone found a way to use such a command to disrupt RP, or farming, or TFs, or whatever your favorite passtime in City is.

Yeah no sorry its not the same. PVP is an after thought, and one that while Im not one who says oh no pvp caused ED and nearly killed the game, I do recognize that pvp simply cant be seen as a serious aspect of this game. The sheer difference between ATs, and even power set choices in the ATs alone creates a vast chasm between players. Now lets factor in SO users, common IO users, and Set users. Now I regualrly invest upwards of a half a bil or more into a capped character, and design them with exemping in mind. Im no slouch in defending myself in a zone like bloody bay when after a shvian shard, which is a pve quest inside a pvp zone. However if I am jumped by a group, Im in a fair bit of trouble. That alone is bad pvp design. Allowing groups to be able to attack solo players is a recipe for griefing and ganking. Thankfully I tend to have phase shift or the phase temp power which is usually enough to escape such a situation should it happen.

 

But PVP that is not based on equal power builds and ATs is something I just will never cease to state is pointless and should just be removed, with the zones being re purposed into pve co op zones if possible. As I said early chess when one side starts with all queens and the other with all pawns is not a game anyone sane would want to play or call fun and fair.

 

Lets not forget on live on virtue for example many of the top SGs and VGs basically farmed each other and out right controlled the pvp zones making it absolutely pointless and a serious negative for those who dared to go in alone. It wasnt about playing, they would gather, stand in lines and be burned down, then come back and do the same to the other side over and over for pvp IO recipes. This was what in large part allowed them to amass such power and influence. I know as I was in several of the so called top SGs of virtue which i wont name and shame but rest assured they did not gain such a position through fair play but exploiting the system.

 

Those who came after pvp was added that made the mistake of thinking the game had a pvp aspect found out the hard way and no few left because for them good pvp was a need to enjoy the game. I knew a lot of players over on guild wars that played CoH and were very pvp orientated and competitive. The idea of pvping on city of heroes was a huge joke to such players. Keep in mind to this day guild wars one remains active, has a very sizable and stable population and the pvp is considered some of the best designed in any MMO. I still on occasion myself still log on and do some random arena there on very odd builds and hold my own just fine even against many year hard core pvpers because the game is so well balanced when it comes to pvp.

 

Now sure in a perfect world pvp would be a meaninful aspect of coh, but its not. Its the dark alley of the amusement park that is best avoided less your whole day at the park end badly and makes you regret coming in the first place.

 

So I say again any so called fast escape from pvp option is a positive, because if some casual or new comer dares to explore bloody bay and gets gang banged they are going to think wow what a terrible game to allow such BS especially if they want to have a fun pvp experience. Warframe suffers a similar issue. Due to the wide array of powers and weapons in that game, pvp has always been broken, and basically is only played by foolish newbs who dont know better, and gankers living to grief them.

 

Lets not even get into the issue of a flying ranged user with air superiority against a melee player with no AS and only a jet pack. Such a wide gap exist just within those build choices that it alone justifies pvp just being scrapped. About the only positive ever to come from CoH pvp was that it was in part what brought about debuff resistance on sets like SR, as SR users got so horribly abused at the dawn of pvp in this game that many forsook the power set for years afterwards and many to this day wrongly call it a gimp set because its pure defense with no self healing or recovery which is not even thematic SR is clearly the super speedster def set, and speedsters regenerate and recover from fatigue rapidly as long as they have plenty to eat. Since we dont eat in coh that is a non factor. SR should have some meaninful lvl of passive regen and increased recovery rate imo but thats off topic so I apologize for that mini rant.