Poison - Small Buff to Alkaloid & EoL

[LateNights]

Heyas

 

Pretty simple change...

 

1. Alkaloid - make it PbAoE and swap the animation with Elixir of Life.

 

2. Elixir of Life - make it function like Nature Affinity - Rebirth, and swap the animation with Alkaloid.

 

Hooray, we can now solo 100% more effectively with the added benefit of being a slightly better team healer as well.

 

or am I crazy?

 

[Some Random User]

I feel like Poison is not supposed to be a healer.

Like, look at the name.

 

Poison is debuff focused.

 

Also, the animations do suck. Throwing "heal balls" sucks. What can we do instead?

[LateNights]

It still wouldn't be a healer by any stretch of the imagination - but it would increase the utility of the heals it has, something that had already happened with other sets later in the games life cycle - and I don't think they're worse in any way for it.

[Nayeh]

After getting a Sonic/Poison Corrupter to 38, I imagined having a "splash" AoE on Alkaloid and Antidote would dramatically change this line to not feel so gimpy. The Debuff aspects are already "spit and splash" effects that wouldn't be too far off in alignment to the said proposal.

 

Having to deal with Alkaloid's slow animation for a pathetic heal isn't very rewarding at all. At least extending the heal to be a small radius on the target would make it feel more worthwhile.

 

I also somehow thought Antidote would work like "Injection" from the Medicine line where it would have a Negative or Positive effect depending on the target. Unfortunately, it's just a long animation Clear Mind.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Nayeh
Antidotes

[LateNights]

It's absolutely crazy that anyone using "poison" to heal someone didn't at some point think to use it on themselves 😆

 

However, here we are - with pool powers now eclipsing sets - which iirc correctly was stated by the Devs as against their design intent...

[GM Sijin]

I'm not against improving poison if it's under performing, but I'd just like to call out a few things:

 

21 hours ago, Nayeh said:

Unfortunately, it's just a long animation Clear Mind.

With resist to slow (often useful), cold and toxic (more situational) in place of CM's +perception (fairly situational outside of PvP).

 

16 hours ago, LateNights said:

However, here we are - with pool powers now eclipsing sets - which iirc correctly was stated by the Devs as against their design intent...

I don't think it's accurate to say injection eclipses antidote. It's slightly more versatile being able to apply a fairly minor debuff on a single enemy, but has close to twice the cast time, half the duration, three times the recharge and costs more than twice the endurance (or exactly twice for MMs), without slow, cold or toxic resistances.

 

20 hours ago, Nayeh said:

Having to deal with Alkaloid's slow animation for a pathetic heal isn't very rewarding at all.

Alkaloid has the second fastest cast time of any non-personal heal in the game AFAIK (transfusion being the faster one), it just has travel time unlike other single target heals. It's heal amount is somewhat reduced from other single target heals because it also provides toxic resistance.

[Nayeh]

31 minutes ago, GM Sijin said:

I'm not against improving poison if it's under performing, but I'd just like to call out a few things:

 

With resist to slow (often useful), cold and toxic (more situational) in place of CM's +perception (fairly situational outside of PvP).

 

 

Alkaloid has the second fastest cast time of any non-personal heal in the game AFAIK (transfusion being the faster one), it just has travel time unlike other single target heals. It's heal amount is somewhat reduced from other single target heals because it also provides toxic resistance.

Ah yes, a slow projectile tool with laughable values to counter slows and damage is very efficient in the heat of a battle.  Better off resting after a fight than waiting on me to hurl 8 Alkaloids.

 

I don't hate the line, in fact I really enjoy playing the poison line. The line could use some adjustments because as it stands, it just feels under performing.

 

[Some Random User]

3 hours ago, GM Sijin said:

Alkaloid has the second fastest cast time of any non-personal heal in the game AFAIK (transfusion being the faster one), it just has travel time unlike other single target heals. It's heal amount is somewhat reduced from other single target heals because it also provides toxic resistance.

Respectfully, the animation times are what this thread is about. The O.P.'s comment was about the animation causing a delay before the ally gets the heal, regardless of what specific timer is getting in the way. I believe the O.P. wants a quickly-responsive "spot-heal" they can use to patch someone up. The cast time or recharge time are not the only timers where [Alkaloid] is concerned.

 

I play a /Poison Mastermind, and I sometimes auto-cast Alkaloid with the Brute or Tanker targeted and try to switch quickly back and forth between casts to throw debuffs and use [Antidote] where needed, then re-targeting the aggro-managing teammate as the auto-cast comes back up. I have to take that approach because the delay is so long a "spot-heal" won't happen in time. If the heals aren't spammed (and often wasted) you don't accomplish much for your allies. Giving them +Res (Toxic) as an upside is pretty cool, though.

[GM Sijin]

4 hours ago, Nayeh said:

Ah yes, a slow projectile tool with laughable values to counter slows and damage is very efficient in the heat of a battle.

Not sure I'd call 50% resistance laughable, but I will say the damage resistance portion of the ability should be made into an AOE like it was for Kinetics/Increase Density.

 

1 hour ago, Some Random User said:

I play a /Poison Mastermind, and I sometimes auto-cast Alkaloid with the Brute or Tanker targeted and try to switch quickly back and forth between casts to throw debuffs and use [Antidote] where needed, then re-targeting the aggro-managing teammate as the auto-cast comes back up. I have to take that approach because the delay is so long a "spot-heal" won't happen in time.

That's a fair argument, and I don't mean to dismiss it. The issue I have with it is the heal delay is variable. At point blank range it's basically its cast time but at the power's default max range it's somewhere around 2.6 seconds, which is about a second slower than other single target heals. Perhaps the power's animation should be changed to throw a much faster projectile earlier in the cast time, or more favorably it should be reworked to remove the projectile entirely since it adds variability in healing unless the projectile is too fast to really see... which defeats the point of having one. This applies to Antidote as well. I know a lot of players aren't particularly happy with the animation set for Poison in general and it seems like for its reactionary abilities having them be variable makes them significantly more unreliable, especially for the heal.

[Trickshooter]

On 8/20/2019 at 5:30 AM, Nayeh said:

After getting a Sonic/Poison Corrupter to 38, I imagined having a "splash" AoE on Alkaloid and Antidote would dramatically change this line to not feel so gimpy. The Debuff aspects are already "spit and splash" effects that wouldn't be too far off in alignment to the said proposal.

Allow me to direct you to the Buff Poison thread in my signature. 😁

[Trickshooter]

18 minutes ago, GM Sijin said:

Perhaps the power's animation should be changed to throw a much faster projectile earlier in the cast time, or more favorably it should be reworked to remove the projectile entirely since it adds variability in healing unless the projectile is too fast to really see... which defeats the point of having one. This applies to Antidote as well. I know a lot of players aren't particularly happy with the animation set for Poison in general and it seems like for its reactionary abilities having them be variable makes them significantly more unreliable, especially for the heal.

Yes, please! Alkaloid and Antidote aren't particularly slow to animate, but the travel time of the projectile really makes them feel like they're always too little, too late. 

[Some Random User]

51 minutes ago, GM Sijin said:

I know a lot of players aren't particularly happy with the animation set for Poison in general and it seems like for its reactionary abilities having them be variable makes them significantly more unreliable, especially for the heal.

I'm aware that making new animations is a tall order, so unlikely to get. The changes that were already made back in the day included [Envenom] and [Weaken] getting a splash. Context considered, how do you view the O.P.'s suggested animation swaps and changing [Alkaloid] to match, with a half strength effect on any nearby allies?

[daveyfiacre]

my biggest suggestion for poison is to port some of the animations as alternates, from the Sewers DFB boss, making it green and splashy instead of shooting a green ball from your wrist, and add a minor DoT to one more of the targeted AoE's, and ad minor damage to the hold. BAM will be #1 powerset in game lol.

[LateNights]

8 hours ago, GM Sijin said:

I don't think it's accurate to say injection eclipses antidote. It's slightly more versatile being able to apply a fairly minor debuff on a single enemy, but has close to twice the cast time, half the duration, three times the recharge and costs more than twice the endurance (or exactly twice for MMs), without slow, cold or toxic resistances.

Fair call - i guess i'm viewing it more in terms of versatility, rather than outright strength...

 

Still, it's high time the set got some love, in fact i'd go as far as to say no support set should be without either an ability to self heal or grant absorb to self (thinking Sonic or others that might not thematically gel with a "normal" heal), but thats just my 2 cents.

 

Thanks for checking in :)

[Leogunner]

Just now, GM Sijin said:

With resist to slow (often useful), cold and toxic (more situational) in place of CM's +perception (fairly situational outside of PvP).

Or if you're fighting Arachnos in PvE...uhg.

 

Some random thought I had, what if Antidote also had a buff for +healing received?  So even the target's own heals would be better at capping them off.

[Bossk_Hogg]

I'm all for improving Poison. The focus is the issue, being a mostly single target debuffer (the splash radius is pitifully small and weak in effect). COH is, for good or ill, an AE game, so being best single target debuffer doesnt really mean much. It's also a huge endurance pig. It's T9 for non-MM's also requires you to be in close range. Given the lack of self heals or buffs, this isnt a super spot to be in... Perhaps consider adding a HOT or Absorb? 

 

 

[LateNights]

A HoT is a great addition thematically - the poison taking time to apply its effects and whatnot - add that to the splash mechanic and you've got a solid base to start from when playing around with buffing a few powers!

 

 

 

[Some Random User]

Poison would be much better thematically if the debuffs were all hit-you-like-a-truck good single target debuffs, but they never will be because "that bad guy gets no stats now" isn't easy to balance.

[William Valence]

May as well just cross reference my thoughts from the other poison buff thread.

 

21 hours ago, William Valence said:

Coming from the perspective of a MM /poison player.

 

I don't believe /poison is as bad as I used to. I'd do three things:

 

1. Allow neurotoxic breath to take Hold IO sets.
2. Turn Noxious Aura into a toggle like Venomous Aura, or at the very least reduce the recharge so the uptime can be made 100%. It's a very important part of the set's power.
3. And this is the big one -> Make poison trap a ranged, ground targeted summon that can be seen by enemies, and that they can attack.

The last on is the big one IMO. Buff sets are easy. They are agnostic to mob size, and they work for the alpha and everything after. Debuff sets are harder. You have to apply the debuff first. For /Dark there are multiple ways to break an alpha. For /traps you have seeker drones and a +def power. /rad's two anchor abilities pump their effect faster than /poison can. I think if /poison had a way to summon something like seeker drones that ate the initial hit, then I think the set would be much more fun to play and perform better to boot.

 

You summon the trap. The mob nukes the trap, and whoops trap card activated. While all that's happening Neurotoxic breath has been vomited out, and while the orbs of mob neutering are being hucked about, either the player or their pet have moved in debuffing the group further with the aura.