Pylon Damage Thread

[Bopper]

29 minutes ago, Sovera said:

But... the one who died in less than five minutes and the one who only had 18% shaved off both had the same 5-8% despite wildly different resistances.

 

Regardless and to get to the bottom of it

Excellent info. Two more questions before I think I can give am assessment. What exactly were you changing in your build when you say -res or procs? Is it just CAK that gets tweaked, or I there more to it?

 

Next, how are you calculating 5-8%? 

[Sovera]

1 minute ago, Bopper said:

Excellent info. Two more questions before I think I can give am assessment. What exactly were you changing in your build when you say -res or procs? Is it just CAK that gets tweaked, or I there more to it?

 

Next, how are you calculating 5-8%? 

Where I have 'damage procs' I have the build I posted.

Where I have '-res procs' I have an Achilles in CAK and a Fury of the Gladiator in Burn.

 

I calculated 5-8% by doing a run with -res procs for 5 minutes then see what the AV's HP is. Then do another run but with damage procs. The AV's HP is 30.600 so I deduct the current HP at the 5 minute mark from the total HP and see what percentage of damage I did.

 

I then look at the difference between the -res and the damage proc run and see the % separating both. Looking at Neuron, for example, with the -res run I did 67% damage to him. The damage proc run did 61% damage to him. So without overcomplicating it I call it 5% more damage by having used -res procs over damage procs.

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Sovera said:

Where I have 'damage procs' I have the build I posted.

Where I have '-res procs' I have an Achilles in CAK and a Fury of the Gladiator in Burn.

 

I calculated 5-8% by doing a run with -res procs for 5 minutes then see what the AV's HP is. Then do another run but with damage procs. The AV's HP is 30.600 so I deduct the current HP at the 5 minute mark from the total HP and see what percentage of damage I did.

 

I then look at the difference between the -res and the damage proc run and see the % separating both. Looking at Neuron, for example, with the -res run I did 67% damage to him. The damage proc run did 61% damage to him. So without overcomplicating it I call it 5% more damage by having used -res procs over damage procs.

Thanks for clarifying. So you're saying % points, not % improvement. In the example of 67% versus 61%, that's actually 9.8% more HP loss (67/61=1.098). I'm good with it reported either way, I just need to know so I can extrapolate it properly.

 

When I get back on a computer I'll look at it more to make sure I follow everything posted. I can address your original question afterwards

[Frosticus]

For whatever it is worth to you:  A difference of ~7% health in an AV over a 5 minute fight is like ~10dps. 

[Bopper]

4 hours ago, Sovera said:

Where I have 'damage procs' I have the build I posted.

Where I have '-res procs' I have an Achilles in CAK and a Fury of the Gladiator in Burn.

 

I calculated 5-8% by doing a run with -res procs for 5 minutes then see what the AV's HP is. Then do another run but with damage procs. The AV's HP is 30.600 so I deduct the current HP at the 5 minute mark from the total HP and see what percentage of damage I did.

 

I then look at the difference between the -res and the damage proc run and see the % separating both. Looking at Neuron, for example, with the -res run I did 67% damage to him. The damage proc run did 61% damage to him. So without overcomplicating it I call it 5% more damage by having used -res procs over damage procs.

So I did some analysis with your times, using my Pylon calculator to plug in what your times to kill would be, given the amount of HP you took off in 5 minutes. I also applied different resistance values based on the AV's smashing resistance (which would be most of your damage). In short, the DPS for each AV fight increased about 4-5% when using -res instead of dmg procs.

 

I can't do much more with that info as I don't really know your rotation. But here's the thing that gets me... Neuron and Black Swan are practically the same in resistance (0% in everything that is not energy and negative), except they are polar opposites when it comes to E/N. Neuron is weak to negative (-20%) while strong in energy resistance (40%) wheras Black Swan is weak to energy (-30%) while strong against negative (50%). And yet, you were able to kill Black Swan in 5 minutes while you only got Neuron down to 33-40% of its life.

 

I looked at your build and you only have one source of energy damage, which is the Eradication proc in Burn. While you have negative damage procs in Storm, Crane, and CAK (purple). So I thought, shouldn't you have done better against Neuron? I'll admit, I don't know how many proc chances you get with Burn, I know it has an upfront high proc chance plus a pseudopet that will maybe add more chances, but still...it seemed odd.

 

So I gotta ask, did you use Double-Hit? That's energy proc damage, and would be a huge beneficiary of resistance debuffs.

[nihilii]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

Neuron and Black Swan

Black Swan uses Oppressive Gloom frequently, damaging herself in the process.

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, nihilii said:

Black Swan uses Oppressive Gloom frequently, damaging herself in the process.

That would explain a lot.

[Sovera]

3 hours ago, Bopper said:

So I did some analysis with your times, using my Pylon calculator to plug in what your times to kill would be, given the amount of HP you took off in 5 minutes. I also applied different resistance values based on the AV's smashing resistance (which would be most of your damage). In short, the DPS for each AV fight increased about 4-5% when using -res instead of dmg procs.

 

I can't do much more with that info as I don't really know your rotation. But here's the thing that gets me... Neuron and Black Swan are practically the same in resistance (0% in everything that is not energy and negative), except they are polar opposites when it comes to E/N. Neuron is weak to negative (-20%) while strong in energy resistance (40%) wheras Black Swan is weak to energy (-30%) while strong against negative (50%). And yet, you were able to kill Black Swan in 5 minutes while you only got Neuron down to 33-40% of its life.

 

I looked at your build and you only have one source of energy damage, which is the Eradication proc in Burn. While you have negative damage procs in Storm, Crane, and CAK (purple). So I thought, shouldn't you have done better against Neuron? I'll admit, I don't know how many proc chances you get with Burn, I know it has an upfront high proc chance plus a pseudopet that will maybe add more chances, but still...it seemed odd.

 

So I gotta ask, did you use Double-Hit? That's energy proc damage, and would be a huge beneficiary of resistance debuffs.

No inspiration used, no clickies either. It was just a test of -res VS damage procs done in a vacuum.

[DSorrow]

13 hours ago, Sovera said:

But you see this is the testing I am trying to make. I'm trying to ask Bopper if the 5-8% damage boost is 40%+ for the team or not. I have no clue so I'm asking better heads. As my example above giving a boss a 5% damage debuff in WoW means just that. 5%. Not 5% multiplied by the whole raid, suddenly the boss taking 5%x20 persons = 100% extra damage boss. I don't need to tell you it doesn't work that way. The boss is simply taking 5% more damage.

Just to clarify this, the 5% vs 5% x 20 = 100% thing usually means the same thing, but from two different perspectives.

 

Consider a group of 20 people in the raid and assume everyone does 100 DPS just for easy maths, if you apply a debuff that causes the enemy to take 5% more damage every individual raider now does 105 DPS. Your raid's total damage output is now 105 x 20 = 2100, which is exactly 5% more than the previous 100 x 20 = 2000. However, because you added 5% DPS to each individual raider, you get 5% x 20 = 100% of an individual raider's worth of extra damage. As you can see, the added 100 DPS is equivalent to an extra teammate's worth of damage. Similarly if you only had a team of 10 raiders, the 5% debuff would amount to 5% x 10 = 50% or half a raider's worth of added damage.

 

Raid does 5% more damage or you get 5% x [number of raiders] equivalent of "extra teammates", same thing, different measure.

[Bopper]

9 hours ago, DSorrow said:

Just to clarify this, the 5% vs 5% x 20 = 100% thing usually means the same thing, but from two different perspectives.

 

Consider a group of 20 people in the raid and assume everyone does 100 DPS just for easy maths, if you apply a debuff that causes the enemy to take 5% more damage every individual raider now does 105 DPS. Your raid's total damage output is now 105 x 20 = 2100, which is exactly 5% more than the previous 100 x 20 = 2000. However, because you added 5% DPS to each individual raider, you get 5% x 20 = 100% of an individual raider's worth of extra damage. As you can see, the added 100 DPS is equivalent to an extra teammate's worth of damage. Similarly if you only had a team of 10 raiders, the 5% debuff would amount to 5% x 10 = 50% or half a raider's worth of added damage.

 

Raid does 5% more damage or you get 5% x [number of raiders] equivalent of "extra teammates", same thing, different measure.

Good breakdown. It also highlights the language of the math. You providing 5% more DPS from debuffs is strictly in relation to if no debuffs were used. But when you get into a team of debuffs, your 5% isn't going to be a team improvement of 5%.

 

Let's assume you're in a team of 8, where everyone brings 5% resistance debuffs to improve dps. Thats a total of 40% debuffs, and everyone would do 40% more damage than if they didn't have any debuffs. Now, if you choose to not bring extra debuffs, your team will still have 7 debuffers for a total of 35%. The difference between you adding 5% more debuffs is a 1.40/1.35 = +3.7% team improvement. So when it comes to thinking should I add more debuff or a proc, think of that 3.7% added to all 8 of you for ~30% equivalent improvement of a single contributor.

 

Now...its not always that simple. In the case of Achilles, fury of the gladiator, and annihilation, those don't stack on the same target. So when multiple teammates have that proc any stacks would be wasted and a different slotting option would have been better served. But we know that already. There is no one size fits all when it comes to those procs when you don't know what your teammates are bringing to the table. 

[Kanil]

dark/fire/cold dom

 

t3 core muscle, core degen, radial assault (off), t4 core ageless

 

only ran 2 quick tests with this, but yeah. threw this together after feeling like trying something different.

1:55

1:43

 

edit:

ran 2 more during lunch

1:47

1:38

 

 

pretty sure i can get sub 1;30 with t4s and some more clever building/glass cannoning all the way but ehhh. still not happy with the live play power-wise - might end up switching to fire just for fireball

 

already had permadom up and umbral beast out. timer started on casting ageless, which is then followed up by sleet->haunt->build up (or whatever the dom ver is called)-> ice rain into just chaining blaze->blazing bolt->the dark hold w/ all procs and the dominator +dmg proc using fire blast or blaze to fill in gaps whenever i can

re-apply sleet when it's up, same w/ domination, haste, other shit

 

this feels like  one of those ones where the ST damage check in pylon testing isn't actually THAT useful because it assume all pets will be alive and the likelihood of that is pretty low since the dog and shades will usually explode upon any AV doing any AOE near them.

 

the build also has an issue in live play because it doesn't have any solid AOE options so without constant application of controls you just explode because attacks will eventually pierce the 45% def softcap and ream you

 

build mostly copied from this thread:

 

with some slight tweaks - swapped out ragnarok for positron's blast because i'm cheap and shifting some slotting around to get annihilation into sleet and the dmg proc into the hold

 

edit 2:

got t4 muscle thanks to a lucky trial run

ran a few more tests:

1:30

1:28

1:24

1:32

1:58 (no dog)

2:02 (no dog)

1:22

Edited February 26, 2021 by Kanil

[SomeGuy]

On 2/25/2021 at 4:51 AM, Kanil said:

dark/fire/cold dom

 

t3 core muscle, core degen, radial assault (off), t4 core ageless

 

only ran 2 quick tests with this, but yeah. threw this together after feeling like trying something different.

1:55

1:43

 

edit:

ran 2 more during lunch

1:47

1:38

 

 

pretty sure i can get sub 1;30 with t4s and some more clever building/glass cannoning all the way but ehhh. still not happy with the live play power-wise - might end up switching to fire just for fireball

 

already had permadom up and umbral beast out. timer started on casting ageless, which is then followed up by sleet->haunt->build up (or whatever the dom ver is called)-> ice rain into just chaining blaze->blazing bolt->the dark hold w/ all procs and the dominator +dmg proc using fire blast or blaze to fill in gaps whenever i can

re-apply sleet when it's up, same w/ domination, haste, other shit

 

this feels like  one of those ones where the ST damage check in pylon testing isn't actually THAT useful because it assume all pets will be alive and the likelihood of that is pretty low since the dog and shades will usually explode upon any AV doing any AOE near them.

 

the build also has an issue in live play because it doesn't have any solid AOE options so without constant application of controls you just explode because attacks will eventually pierce the 45% def softcap and ream you

 

build mostly copied from this thread:

 

with some slight tweaks - swapped out ragnarok for positron's blast because i'm cheap and shifting some slotting around to get annihilation into sleet and the dmg proc into the hold

 

edit 2:

got t4 muscle thanks to a lucky trial run

ran a few more tests:

1:30

1:28

1:24

1:32

1:58 (no dog)

2:02 (no dog)

1:22

I like being right. Thanks for doing this.

[Kanil]

swapped to dark/fire/fire on this dom because i was really hating not having aoes. having a much more fun time in live play, but man... the loss in ST damage is really notable just from losing out on sleet, haha.

 

times with same stats as before:
t3 core degen, assault radiil (off), t4 muscle core ageless core

 

dog out, started with melt armor-> haunt-> build up-> rain of fire

 

same string as before, blaze->blazing bolt->hold->sometimes fire blast

 

times:

2m

2m3s

2m10s

2m5s

2m2s

2m

2m

 

 

yeah... i dunno, the time loss is so huge. i was getting sub 1m30 times really comfortably with ice. but that's ultimate ST perf anyways, i guess.

the 2m time break is mostly because i'm guesstimating after the timer runs out - it's usually a second or two after or like, close.

 

i really was hoping being able to sub in fireball over fire blast would've helped, but it actively makes the time worse. it's pretty annoying!

[nihilii]

5 hours ago, Kanil said:

yeah... i dunno, the time loss is so huge.

God, this is painful. Thanks for running this. I default to Sleet and wanted to explore Charged Armor with new doms as of late, it's worth knowing the tradeoffs in advance to avoid comparative disappointment in thinking a combo is significantly worse than another when it would really be Sleet that would make most of the difference.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Figured this would be the place to ask.

 

Let's say I wanted to investigate the whole "procmonster" silliness with my claws/sr main scrapper. Sounds like I have to go with conserve power, focused accuracy and physical perfection (geared toward even more end rec) and that means I should just skip followup and chain something like focus, slash, strike. shockwave, eviscerate. That sound about right?

[Bopper]

59 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Figured this would be the place to ask.

 

Let's say I wanted to investigate the whole "procmonster" silliness with my claws/sr main scrapper. Sounds like I have to go with conserve power, focused accuracy and physical perfection (geared toward even more end rec) and that means I should just skip followup and chain something like focus, slash, strike. shockwave, eviscerate. That sound about right?

Why would you skip followup in a proc build? It's one of your most procable powers.

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Why would you skip followup in a proc build? It's one of your most procable powers.

I was thinking about the uselessness of the +tohit/+dam it offers but I get your point.

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I was thinking about the uselessness of the +tohit/+dam it offers but I get your point.

quite the contrary...I mean, if you're looking at using focused accuracy, that's all the more reason for choosing to use follow up

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Figured this would be the place to ask.

 

Let's say I wanted to investigate the whole "procmonster" silliness with my claws/sr main scrapper. Sounds like I have to go with conserve power, focused accuracy and physical perfection (geared toward even more end rec) and that means I should just skip followup and chain something like focus, slash, strike. shockwave, eviscerate. That sound about right?

I would look into using Follow Up in your rotation, and also try to get a Snipe into your rotation (Zapp or Moonbeam). Remember the +To-Hit will buff the damage of the quick snipes and those powers are very procable (purple apoc, pvp proc, and snipe proc, plus moonbeam has access to an accurate tohit debuff proc). You won't use it too frequently, but with enough global recharge you'll probably use it every 8-10s. So if you can come up with a chain for that, perfect.

[Bill Z Bubba]

12 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I would look into using Follow Up in your rotation, and also try to get a Snipe into your rotation (Zapp or Moonbeam). Remember the +To-Hit will buff the damage of the quick snipes and those powers are very procable (purple apoc, pvp proc, and snipe proc, plus moonbeam has access to an accurate tohit debuff proc). You won't use it too frequently, but with enough global recharge you'll probably use it every 8-10s. So if you can come up with a chain for that, perfect.

Good info. Thanks.

[SomeGuy]

On 3/3/2021 at 1:30 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

I was thinking about the uselessness of the +tohit/+dam it offers but I get your point.

FollowUp-Moonbeam-Focus-FollowUp-Slash-Focus. It's how you get low 1 minute times with a claws/bio scrapper.

 

FollowUp is sort of necessary to get the most out of claws performance. Also, that is a really weird statement to say in this thread, where DPS > All. I can definitely see utilizing FU can be useless for some playstyles. FollowUp gives +tohit! "Can't hit, can't crit". Tohit directly subtracts from a thing's defense. It's 1:1.

[Bill Z Bubba]

11 minutes ago, SomeGuy said:

FollowUp-Moonbeam-Focus-FollowUp-Slash-Focus. It's how you get low 1 minute times with a claws/bio scrapper.

 

FollowUp is sort of necessary to get the most out of claws performance. Also, that is a really weird statement to say in this thread, where DPS > All. I can definitely see utilizing FU can be useless for some playstyles. FollowUp gives +tohit! "Can't hit, can't crit". Tohit directly subtracts from a thing's defense. It's 1:1.

I was just talking for proc builds. My normal chain is FU, Focus, Slash repeat with only 1 proc in FU and 2 in the other two but only get about 2 mins on a pylon with the claws/bio scrap. The claws/sr sits at 3.

 

Edit: If yours is heavily proced, I'm guessing ageless for more recharge?

Edited March 6, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[SomeGuy]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I was just talking for proc builds. My normal chain is FU, Focus, Slash repeat with only 1 proc in FU and 2 in the other two but only get about 2 mins on a pylon.

You wanna play wih procs? 😄 Holds that do damage can take a LOT.

[aethereal]

The +damage in follow up is as good for proc builds as it is for non-proc builds, unless you use some power with no essentially no base damage like the blaster holds.  But you won't do that as a scrapper.

[Bill Z Bubba]

You are all correct. Still can't bring myself to do it. Probably because if I do fall down this procmonster hole I wouldn't be able to crawl back out of it.