Hamidon Bug

[Profit]

Somewhere Hamidon was changed from get 1 hit to get the reward to do 10% dmg done to get the reward. This has resulted in loss of rewards for the mito aggro team when utilizing new strategies that have been developed. This needs to be fixed.

 

As an addendum, the zone cap of 50ish people, paragonwiki says 50 but I thought it closer to 100, needs to be reinstated. When 5 full leagues show up for a hami raid the lag is unbearable. So this also needs to be fixed.

[Foxfyre]

10% in no way is correct.  The math doesn't even add up on that.

Let's break it down..... So, we already know that hami damage is per TEAM, not per person. So your TEAM has to do enough damage, not just you individually.

We typically have AT LEAST 3 full leagues. 3 full leagues = 18 teams.  If 18 teams had to do 10% damage that's 180%.

If each team had to do at least 10% damage there would be entire teams that weren't getting the reward table. And the effects would just keep getting worse as we hit 4 and 5 leagues.  Which can and has happened.  Even when you consider Hami's healing.....hami doesn't get the chance to heal THAT much when you throw as many people at him as we do.

[Foxfyre]

Oh, not to mention.....

The way we run raids right now, here's what the Aggro team looks like:

1 Tank taunting Hamidon
6 yellow Mito aggro Tanks
1 Hami Attacker.

Total:  8 people (1 full team)

We assign the 1 person for the team as an "attacker" so that the other tanks can go taunt and not have to worry about not getting their reward because they aren't attacking.

So....you're telling me that ONE person managed to do 10% damage to Hami?  Really? 

[Apparition]

56 minutes ago, Profit said:

As an addendum, the zone cap of 50ish people, paragonwiki says 50 but I thought it closer to 100, needs to be reinstated. When 5 full leagues show up for a hami raid the lag is unbearable. So this also needs to be fixed.

 

I 110% agree.  It's why I haven't been in The Hive nor The Abyss in over two weeks now.  It is ridiculous.  FWIW, I made the suggestion about a month and a half ago to keep the current 200 player cap in The Hive but to lower it back to 50 in The Abyss.  That way the people that are fine with the 2 FPS in The Hive can keep doing Hamidon raids that way, and people who want more than 2 FPS can do it the old way in The Abyss.

[subbacultchas]

I don't know about the last part, I'm not sure how comfortable I feel capping the amount of people in Hive. I get the lag concerns, I've been running it about 4-5 nights a week for a couple of months now, and the lag has grown appreciably worse. I don't like it any more than you do, but I think capping the folks in the Hive is going to lead toward a lot of resentment issues and all around griping about elitists. I do remember way way back when Hamidon raids were organized often by SGs, the zone cap was in place, and lord forbid you showed up as a rando and would get yelled at or GMs trained on top of you until you left so the "reserved" folks could zone in. I don't want to see a return to this type of thing. As it is, word of Hamidon raids have slowly grown and we are seeing people show up now to reap the benefits we've been reaping. I want them to continue to have that chance, and I'll suffer the lag for them to do it.

I'm more than amenable to something that fits in between, like say multiple Hive instances once one hits a certain level and caps. 

[subbacultchas]

1 minute ago, Apparition said:

FWIW, I made the suggestion about a month and a half ago to keep the current 200 player cap in The Hive but to lower it back to 50 in The Abyss.

 I like this approach a whole lot better.

[Foxfyre]

What's ridiculous about it?  Even with the lag, in 30 minutes or so you walk away with a Hami-O and 120 merits.  

Reward > Annoyance.

Although I will agree that turning the Abyss into a zone capped area for hami is a good idea.  You could even cap the Abyss at 100 (2 Leagues) and still not have much lag.

While I agree with the intent behind capping at 50, it's not realistic.  With only 50 people able to enter the zone....if you don't get enough damage, or enough holds for the greens, or enough tanks that can hold aggro.....you could wind up being boned. Because people would be resistant to switching to alt that could be of more help because in the time it took them to switch, someone else would enter the zone and take their spot.    I'd say 100 is better.

[Profit]

1 minute ago, subbacultchas said:

I don't know about the last part, I'm not sure how comfortable I feel capping the amount of people in Hive. I get the lag concerns, I've been running it about 4-5 nights a week for a couple of months now, and the lag has grown appreciably worse. I don't like it any more than you do, but I think capping the folks in the Hive is going to lead toward a lot of resentment issues and all around griping about elitists. I do remember way way back when Hamidon raids were organized often by SGs, the zone cap was in place, and lord forbid you showed up as a rando and would get yelled at or GMs trained on top of you until you left so the "reserved" folks could zone in. I don't want to see a return to this type of thing. As it is, word of Hamidon raids have slowly grown and we are seeing people show up now to reap the benefits we've been reaping. I want them to continue to have that chance, and I'll suffer the lag for them to do it.

I'm more than amenable to something that fits in between, like say multiple Hive instances once one hits a certain level and caps. 

I think this is a non issue. If an SG is doing a SG only raid, why are they announcing it in a global channel? For scheduled raids, it ensures that people are there early/on time to get their spot on the raid team. It also helps ensure that the people who are going to participate are going to be there. If they don't make it to the hive in time to get a spot, eh. We also on live would get to the hive, see have 2 and hive 1 full, and someone would go into hive 2 to keep open, if there was enough interest a second raid would be held at the same time as the first raid insureing everyone got a reward. If not enough interest, most raiders would wait around and goto hive 2 to raid and help the people who didn't get in on the first raid. At least that's how it was on Justice.

[Foxfyre]

1 minute ago, Profit said:

I think this is a non issue. If an SG is doing a SG only raid, why are they announcing it in a global channel? For scheduled raids, it ensures that people are there early/on time to get their spot on the raid team. It also helps ensure that the people who are going to participate are going to be there. If they don't make it to the hive in time to get a spot, eh. We also on live would get to the hive, see have 2 and hive 1 full, and someone would go into hive 2 to keep open, if there was enough interest a second raid would be held at the same time as the first raid insureing everyone got a reward. If not enough interest, most raiders would wait around and goto hive 2 to raid and help the people who didn't get in on the first raid. At least that's how it was on Justice.

See my above post.  A limit of 50 is too restrictive....and actively discourages players from alting to a more needed AT due to fears of losing their spot.

 

[Apparition]

1 minute ago, Foxfyre said:

What's ridiculous about it?  Even with the lag, in 30 minutes or so you walk away with a Hami-O and 120 merits.  

Reward > Annoyance.

Although I will agree that turning the Abyss into a zone capped area for hami is a good idea.  You could even cap the Abyss at 100 (2 Leagues) and still not have much lag.

While I agree with the intent behind capping at 50, it's not realistic.  With only 50 people able to enter the zone....if you don't get enough damage, or enough holds for the greens, or enough tanks that can hold aggro.....you could wind up being boned. Because people would be resistant to switching to alt that could be of more help because in the time it took them to switch, someone else would enter the zone and take their spot.    I'd say 100 is better.

 

Not dealing with Annoyance >>>> Reward.  There are plenty of other ways to get reward merits, and obtain Synthentic Hami-Os.  The lag was so bad during the one raid two and a half weeks ago that I up and left during the second Hamidon raid and haven't been back since.

 

As for capping at 50, it's fine.  Raids were run that way every week for years on Champion and Exalted, and they went just fine.

[Apparition]

1 minute ago, Foxfyre said:

See my above post.  A limit of 50 is too restrictive....and actively discourages players from alting to a more needed AT due to fears of losing their spot.

 

 

I never saw nor experienced that in years of leading Hamidon raid teams on Champion and Exalted.

[Foxfyre]

3 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

Not dealing with Annoyance >>>> Reward. 

Hamidon dies usually within one minute from the time we send everyone into the goo.  Once hami dies you're free to fly away from the bowl and get away from the lag.

We kill Hami 3 times a night.

 
Reward > 3 minutes of lag.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Foxfyre

[Foxfyre]

2 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

I never saw nor experienced that in years of leading Hamidon raid teams on Champion and Exalted.

A comparison to what happened on Live isn't really accurate here.

Live never had the ability to have 3-5 leagues of people in a Hami Raid.  Homecoming can.  People are used to being able to get in no matter what.  It creates a totally different player dynamic.  For those who do manage to get in.....I doubt we'll see willingness for them to try to alt due to fears of losing their spot.

[Apparition]

1 minute ago, Foxfyre said:

A comparison to what happened on Live isn't really accurate here.

Live never had the ability to have 3-5 leagues of people in a Hami Raid.  Homecoming can.  People are used to being able to get in no matter what.  It creates a totally different player dynamic.  For those who do manage to get in.....I doubt we'll see willingness for them to try to alt due to fears of losing their spot.

 

That's why I suggested leaving The Hive the way it is, and lowering The Abyss' player cap back to what it was in live.  There's still lag with 100 people.

[Profit]

On live there was never an unwillingness to alt for fear of losing your spot.

 

Capping the zone accomplishes certain things, leechers aren't going to be bothered to get to the hive early to insure their spot so it get's more active participants.

 

Griefers, likewise aren't going to get their very early to insure their spot.

 

It cuts down on the slide show lag we are seeing.

 

And it turns hami back into a threat. Let's face it, Issue 9 hami wasn't designed for this many people to attack him and has become such a joke that people can't be bothered to even listen to the raid leader instructions. It shouldn't be that way. I'd be willing to say that except for a few raid leaders on excel nobody else on the server could run a raid at a zone cap. People would need to learn how to actually run the raid instead of just breaking the mechanics by 'throwing more explosions at it till they win'. That would also create players that would clean up their own mess when they triple bloom hami instead of being scared of it and just quitting leaving it for someone else to do.

[Apparition]

1 minute ago, Profit said:

On live there was never an unwillingness to alt for fear of losing your spot.

 

Capping the zone accomplishes certain things, leechers aren't going to be bothered to get to the hive early to insure their spot so it get's more active participants.

 

Griefers, likewise aren't going to get their very early to insure their spot.

 

It cuts down on the slide show lag we are seeing.

 

And it turns hami back into a threat. Let's face it, Issue 9 hami wasn't designed for this many people to attack him and has become such a joke that people can't be bothered to even listen to the raid leader instructions. It shouldn't be that way. I'd be willing to say that except for a few raid leaders on excel nobody else on the server could run a raid at a zone cap. People would need to learn how to actually run the raid instead of just breaking the mechanics by 'throwing more explosions at it till they win'. That would also create players that would clean up their own mess when they triple bloom hami instead of being scared of it and just quitting leaving it for someone else to do.

 

Nailed it in one.

[Ukase]

Lag. That seems to be the big factor in all this. What if we just changed our perspective? Perhaps we should just imagine the lag as one of Hami's defenses to overcome? Then what? 

My point is - we've been successful against Hami despite lag, more often than not. Way more often. I have no expectations of the Homecoming team to fix anything, because it's all working as expected. As intended originally? probably not. But we expect it. And most of us are still functioning just fine with it. Not great, but certainly good enough. 

The idea of a zone cap of 50, in my mind is too small. I think 100 would be just fine for both. That's more than enough to win against Hami in both the Abyss and The Hive. 

Lag has always been a part of CoH, and likely always will. Technology being what it is - there is always going to be a bottleneck somewhere. 

Got a new video card for $2k? Great! Guess what though - your cable company is throttling your download speeds...
Switch to U-verse by AT&T? Great - while your vid card and internet are now great, your cache size is too small, and you're still using an HDD, instead of a solid state drive. When's the last time you formatted that? Your system tries, but you turn it off because you're still playing..

You get the point. Homecoming could spend billions of their own money to magically smooth the code so it has no lag, and someone would still have lag because they're playing on a system that simply isn't that good. 

As for the lack of rewards, if there were a way for me to personally give 80 reward merits to @prophet, I would. The man is generous with his time and knowledge and should get a badge for it. But that's just my two inf. 

[Foxfyre]

1 minute ago, Apparition said:

 

Nailed it in one.

Except you're completely discounting human nature.  People would act as I said.

The number of people who afk on the gathering rock during the whole process except when it's time to go in and attack Hami, and then run right back to the rock without assisting in clearing the buds or attacking GM's is proof enough.  The number of people who still pull GM's to the rock to troll people and refuse to stop despite multiple requests is proof enough.

The current Hami raid has spoiled people.  And it would take weeks if not months to get people back to the mindset of how it worked on Live.

[Foxfyre]

All that said tho.....I still agree with capping the Abyss and leaving the Hive the way it is.  Best of both worlds.

[Profit]

2 minutes ago, Foxfyre said:

All that said tho.....I still agree with capping the Abyss and leaving the Hive the way it is.  Best of both worlds.

I personally want it reversed, give the dirty villains the uncapped zone. Hero's are better than that and don't need to cheat to get a hami o.

[Apparition]

2 minutes ago, Foxfyre said:

Except you're completely discounting human nature.  People would act as I said.

The number of people who afk on the gathering rock during the whole process except when it's time to go in and attack Hami, and then run right back to the rock without assisting in clearing the buds or attacking GM's is proof enough.  The number of people who still pull GM's to the rock to troll people and refuse to stop despite multiple requests is proof enough.

The current Hami raid has spoiled people.  And it would take weeks if not months to get people back to the mindset of how it worked on Live.

 

 

You also discount human nature.  I've noticed all of those things, believe me.  I also agree that the current Hamidon raid has spoiled people.  That is why I suggest leaving The Hive the way it is.

 

But for those who want to do it as it was on live like myself would be more motivated to keep it together.  Because there would be fewer people, there'd be more personal responsibility.  People stay at the rock and AFK because "Eh, there's 150 other people here, it doesn't matter if I go help them."  If you limit it to 50, those same people (if they bother to come at all), will be more motivated to help, and will also be more noticed if they don't.

[Foxfyre]

15 minutes ago, Ukase said:

As for the lack of rewards, if there were a way for me to personally give 80 reward merits to @prophet, I would. The man is generous with his time and knowledge and should get a badge for it. But that's just my two inf. 

It's your lucky day, @Ukase!  You can transfer Merits.  I believe you have to convert them to Hero Merits first....but you can definitely do that.

While you're at it, send me 80 as well :P

[Profit]

5 minutes ago, Foxfyre said:

It's your lucky day, @Ukase!  You can transfer Merits.  I believe you have to convert them to Hero Merits first....but you can definitely do that.

While you're at it, send me 80 as well 😛

Should send foxy more than 80, he's been actively leading, I've just been helping and sharing my raid call out popmenu with people who want to actively lead. 😄

 

also Ravey, don't forget Ravey., 😄

Edited August 22, 2019 by Profit

[subbacultchas]

1 hour ago, Profit said:

I think this is a non issue. If an SG is doing a SG only raid, why are they announcing it in a global channel? For scheduled raids, it ensures that people are there early/on time to get their spot on the raid team. It also helps ensure that the people who are going to participate are going to be there. If they don't make it to the hive in time to get a spot, eh. We also on live would get to the hive, see have 2 and hive 1 full, and someone would go into hive 2 to keep open, if there was enough interest a second raid would be held at the same time as the first raid insureing everyone got a reward. If not enough interest, most raiders would wait around and goto hive 2 to raid and help the people who didn't get in on the first raid. At least that's how it was on Justice.

More of a "you happened to show up at the time it was running thing", but it's all good. 

I don't have an issue if more hives are opened, and more people can still fight hamidon during this. None at all, although I greatly prefer Apparitions idea of leaving Hive open and Abyss locked. I'm just really worried that after a couple months of smooth and consistent runs, we begin to make it harder for new players and new toons to get  in. I'd like ultimately for them to have the same experience and opportunities we've had doing this. 

[Cherry]

Lets be real here.. how many of the players during a raid have multiple alts in the zone? Thats the bitch i have. 

My SG led them regularly with the zone at its cap back on live .. Id like to see the cap go back so you actually have to work for it, not just toss all the attacks at it. This game has gotten STUPID easy and it kinda sucks... BUT.. id rather have a stupid easy COH to play instead of nothing.