Hard or fuzzy line between origins?

[biostem]

One thing I love and hate about CoH is how character origins have very little to do with your powers.  I love this, because people can make whatever they want, instead of being shoehorned into "powerset A always goes with origin X", but at the same time, it seems hard to reconcile summoning demons using "natural" means.  I know that there are some very creative people out there, who can craft the perfect narrative to explain why their character can "naturally summon demons", but sometimes it just bugs me.  I'd love to hear your folks' input on the matter.  Thanks in advance!

 

Some examples of blurred lines for me:

 

A serum that gave you superpowers seems like science, but what if you were implanted with a device that administers said serum whenever it's needed?  Does that become technology?

 

Let's say your character is a demon from a demonic realm?  Their ability to summon lesser demons may be inherent to their race/species, so would that make them natural?

 

What if a character utilizes advanced weapons and armor, but it is only because of their mutations, (improved strength & durability), that they can even wield that equipment properly?

 

 

Do you folks just take an "in the eye of the beholder" kind of approach?

Edited September 6, 2019 by biostem

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

I love this, because peopel can make whatever they want, instead of being shoehorned into "powerset A always goes with origin X", but at the same time, it seems hard to reconcile summoning demons using "natural" means.  I know that there are some very creative people out there, who can craft the perfect narrative to explain why their character can "naturally summon demons", but sometimes it just bugs me.  I'd love to hear your folks' input on the matter.  Thanks in advance!

I can see having a character whose parent is a demon lord/mistress who had a child with a normal human and the resulting child is like 90% human with no innate talent or inherent magical abilities...or the human who is partnered with said demon lord/mistress is standard 100% human.  Either the child or partner (whichever you want to use) is targeted by a certain group so said demon lord/mistress "assigns" you demon minion protectors that you literally yell their name and they come to your call.  Would have to excuse the animations though and use your imagination.

 

As for some of my characters, I have a whole line of Magitech defenders who are all one woman who just uses different suits.  Similar to Iron-man, she's tech but the powers of her suit are basically magical attributes regulated and manipulated by tech so as they are usable by normal people.  Her whole backstory focuses on how her tech can be controlled from use for evil intent before it truly falls into the wrong hands. 

 

It's always a fun exercise to come up with ways to blend magic and tech to explain her powers.  Like for dark/sonic def, she ended collabing with a medium (she herself is actually quite apt at basic magic, spells and spirituality too) who got in contact with a shadow spectre from a dark realm who took over the medium and caused havoc.  With the help of other heroes, they manage to free the medium but only if Sandra (my character) agreed to let his voice be heard.  Using portal tech and some advanced spirit box-like methods, they sent the spectre a microphone that projects his voice.  Just so happens the guys voice is pretty knarly when aimed and tends to leave a miasma residue in the aftermath.

 

 

 

[Steampunkette]

I have a Science character with Magic Boots and stuff. She's an Archer-Scientist who studies magic the same way she studies physics.

 

I had a Magic Brute. She was a Mutant exposed to Cage Chemical Runoff on Sharkhead when her cop-partner tried to murder her but ultimately it was the Red Coral that saved her life and empowered her split personality into a true hero.

 

They're fuzzy as hell, for me. 😄

[Jon]

Cosmic characters are always a great way to highlight the limitation of the origin system. A lot of them could be any blend of all 5 origins, depending on the character.

 

I usually pick the origin that fits my characters best but I don't ever let the in-game origins limit my character's actual concept.

Edited September 7, 2019 by Jon

[Heraclea]

Fuzzy for me.  Clear distinctions between Science and Technology are particularly hard.  I've taken to making Science characters out of many characters that probably should have other origins.  I simply expand Science to include sciences like alchemy, part of the shared Roman Amazon backstory, and Gwyneth Paltrow's website and the science it promotes.  Whatever that is. 

 

(I also do this because the Science attack is useful in late game for things like the Lady Gray TF.  And I didn't know those things could be swapped out at the P2W vendor.) 

[Coyotedancer]

My own crew tend to be exclusively Magic origin... It's just a side effect of the type of characters I play... So it's rarely been an issue for me. I can see where others without such a clear-cut bunch might have trouble picking, though.

 

"Fuzzy" seems to be the best call in that case.

Go with 'The Rule of Cool'... What feels like the more interesting, more entertaining or more creatively inspirational choice.  

[Cyrickain13]

Origins can get fuzzy.

 

I run Mutants and Magics  mostly. 

 

I try to run all 5 Origins and kept them separated in my head. Most of Science characters were not created by themselves, and most of my Technology characters were. 

 

Naturals for me usually mean Aliens as well. 

[ChairKicker]

Science and Mutation in particular can be particularly fuzzy, I find. Sometimes, all powers don't fit neatly in a certain category, but it still can be hard even if you focus on the main set/theme. I try to think in terms of enhancements if I have any hesitation: would a character benefit more from selected exposure to Macguffinium, or additional Unobtainium plating? Enchanted relic, or genetic splicing with animal genes? Do genetics even make sense for this character? If they would take the relic, is it because of its inherent power, or because they understand how it works, or because they want to study it?

The fuzziest character in that aspect that I think I have is the Voodoo Dollmaker. Voodoo doll part comes from her being a Spines/Regen Brute. At her base, her Origin is Mutation: her body is weird and resilient, and so, she can store inside herself metal spikes without an ill-effect to herself; because she could do it since she was a child, she was ostracised for it, which contributed to her misanthropic personality and current role as a Villain.
That's the voodoo doll part, but then there's the dollmaker part. Well, she makes voodoo dolls, obviously. Except she wants them to be her servants. So she steals or makes dead bodies, and uses them in the process of making obedient, human-sized voodoo doll minions. She doesn't have any background or reason to be knowledgeable in technology, so she uses voodoo-esque magic to that end; makes more sense since her "day" job is that of a mystic/medium (not necessarily a very legitimate one, mind). The process likely involves the same metal spikes she uses to attack. All in all, she dabbles in magic, and might learn a few powers relying on it rather than her base mutation, but Magic is not her main source of power; it's more of an additional trick or background element. I could have made her a Magic Origin, but 1, I have way too many of them already, and 2, Mutation still makes sense, works better with the background of being rejected by society since childhood, and she would certainly benefit from genetic enhancement.
It's like the Hulk being outfitted with a special-made armour to face specific threats or Doctor Doom learning and practicing magic on top of his technological prowess 'cause you can't tell him he's not good enough to master both (or you can, but he doesn't listen, and you'll die first for even thinking that).

[Captain Valiant]

It's definitely an "eye of the beholder" thing, as you suggest.

Take Superman, for example:
Natural - All Kryptonians have the same potential superpowers, given the same environment;
Science - It's the radiation of a yellow sun that gives Kryptonians their powers;
Technology - It takes a space vessel to transport a Kryptonian to an environment where powers manifest;

The only difference, in CoH, is how you would roleplay the character.

[Ashlaylay]

I normally don't pay much attention to in-game origin. I've retconned characters into completely different concepts at level 50 because the original one just wasn't doing it for me. Made a character go from a mutant to a magic user and paid no mind to the fact that her in-game origin said mutation.

[Moka]

21 minutes ago, Ashlaylay said:

I normally don't pay much attention to in-game origin. I've retconned characters into completely different concepts at level 50 because the original one just wasn't doing it for me. Made a character go from a mutant to a magic user and paid no mind to the fact that her in-game origin said mutation.

Same here.

[Six-Six]

Before I discovered p2w lady, I always picked the technology because I preferred the taser darts. I didn't know you could exchange them. 😃
 

[Marine X]

You see this in Comics all the Time:

 

Nightcrawler- ( Mutant ) son of Mystique ( Mutant ) and Azazel ( Demon )

Forge- ( Mutant ) Has the ability to Construct Technology and Intuitively Understand Tech. ( Tech? ).

Spiderman- ( Science ) wall crawling and strength from Radioactive Spider Bite, ( Tech ) web slingers

Powerhouse/Franklin Richards- ( Mutant ) hard to classify his powers ( Science ) His parents Mr Fantastic / Invisible Woman got their powers from Cosmic Rays.

Captain Britain- ( Magic ) and they never explain how ( Mutant ) Psylocke is his sister.

Cable- ( Mutant ) Son of Cyclops and Jean Grey ( Mutant ) but most of his abilities are tied to ( Tech ) and his metal body parts to a techno-organic virus ( Science? )

Beast- ( Mutant ) had his strength and dexterity but modified himself ( Science ) to become Blue and Furry so no one knew it was him, but it became permanent, oops.

Hawkeye/Clint Barton- ( Natural ) as an Archer but then ( Science ) when he became Giant Man/Goliath.

Northstar & Aurora- ( Mutant ) but it's later revealed they were Part Elven ( Magic ).

Thanos- ( Natural ) from his Alien Parentage on Titan but ( Mutant ) because he had Inherited Genes from Deviants that gave him most of his Strength and Appearance.

Scarlet Witch- ( Mutant ) for her Hex Power but ( Magic ) after Agatha Harkness trained her to use Magic to focus and Control her abilities.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Marine X

[Bastille Boy]

The line between natural and mutation is also fuzzy. Mutation is a natural process. So is training hard to develop a genetic gift.

 

We have to identify a single origin for all of a character's powers, but in character bios and RP, it often makes sense for the primary and secondary powersets to have different origins.

 

Since the official origin setting only has a minor effect on gameplay, I don't worry about it too much. I do care about making my characters' powers consistent with their origin story. (So, e.g., I chose super jump rather than flight for my Invuln/SJ tanker, since his origin story involved a genetic gift for taking punches + training at the gym.)

 

 

 

[Heraclea]

If your character uses anything but their hands to attack - say, a broadsword - that in itself justifies a Technology origin.  A broadsword is technology, 

 

Mind you, most of my broadsword characters would be at a loss to explain how their broadsword works. 

[Six-Six]

As a newcomer to the game, I was half expecting the origins to have more impact on the game. I guess they could improve/expand the storylines for origin contacts in the city hall basement -- like the warshade and peacebringer tried. It would have been more meaningful to have those as a starting point of orientation other than Matthew or Twinshot. Each origin would have a certain limitation as well as advantage towards certain type of villains, say technology would be pitted against clockwork and freakshow the way warshades/pb are set to fight quantum nebulas right off the bat. As they progress, then it makes sense that their powers and mastery become better and so the lines do get blurred between origins. It would encourage teaming up early in game since as a certain origin, you can't hope to deal with a certain type of villain at some early point of your heroic career.

Moreover, it half-bothers me that as a natural-origin guy with a gun, I have to go and "shoot" at vampyrs, ghosts and demons. I would have liked to be able to choose or  limit my villains to skulls, 5th column, malta, family, and similar mobs. And not to mention redside/goldside yet.

[Marine X]

When the game first started the Origins were more impactful because Matthew and Twinshot did not exist, neither did, Crafting or Invention Origin Enhancements. Dual Origin enhancements were available through stores in Certain Zones. You often had to do Missions for an Origin Appropriate Contact to be able to Purchase Single Origin Enhancements. The games power balancing was all based on Single Origin Enhancements. There was no Wentworth's ( Auction House ). You either followed the chain of Origin Specific Contacts or you wouldn't have the right enhancements to be competetive and that was no fun. Hamidon Origin enhancements in the late game were extremely sought after for their Multiple Boosts.

 

With Crafting and the Auction system in place, it really kind of made Origin a bit meaningless except for Backstory and Roleplay.

[Blackbird71]

On ‎9‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 2:25 PM, biostem said:

A serum that gave you superpowers seems like science, but what if you were implanted with a device that administers said serum whenever it's needed?  Does that become technology?

For this specific example, I'd say it's clearly still science.  The serum is still the source of the power, the method of administering the serum doesn't change that.

 

It can be a bit fuzzy though.  I have an archer character.  Now, she could be Natural, because of her archery skill, but instead I made her Technology, as she invents and uses an advanced bow, targeting system, trick arrows, and other devices.  It's kind of like Batman; is he natural because of his physical strength and fighting ability, or tech because of all of his gadgets? 

 

The way I figure it out is by looking at where the focus is; what's the main source of the power?  Even if it just comes to 51% of the character, that's the way I'll lean.

[Flashtoo]

Fuzzy line is canonical both by lore history (i. e. calling them the five MODERN origins, and the bit about how 'psychic' used to be considered an origin in its own right) and by, I would argue, game mechanics in the form of dual origin enhancements. In theory you could slot up a low-mid level character with nothing but "relic" style DOs and, imagining that your character is actually making use of things like enchanted earrings and esoteric techniques, a Magic origin would be narratively indistinguishable from a Natural. If there's a new-agey psychic who uses things like crystal foci and divining rods and dreams, can we tell if she's a mutant or a mage, really? 

[Odhinn]

On 9/10/2019 at 3:47 AM, Six Six said:

As a newcomer to the game, I was half expecting the origins to have more impact on the game. I guess they could improve/expand the storylines for origin contacts in the city hall basement -- like the warshade and peacebringer tried. It would have been more meaningful to have those as a starting point of orientation other than Matthew or Twinshot. Each origin would have a certain limitation as well as advantage towards certain type of villains, say technology would be pitted against clockwork and freakshow the way warshades/pb are set to fight quantum nebulas right off the bat. As they progress, then it makes sense that their powers and mastery become better and so the lines do get blurred between origins. It would encourage teaming up early in game since as a certain origin, you can't hope to deal with a certain type of villain at some early point of your heroic career.

Moreover, it half-bothers me that as a natural-origin guy with a gun, I have to go and "shoot" at vampyrs, ghosts and demons. I would have liked to be able to choose or  limit my villains to skulls, 5th column, malta, family, and similar mobs. And not to mention redside/goldside yet.

You can still go into the City Hall and use your origin's contact to start of with a story line more geared to your specific origin.

I think you can speak to any of the origin contacts actually.

[ZeeHero]

Origins are super fuzzy. if I had designed the origin system I'd allow people to pick a "Primary" and "Secondary" origin. Picking the same for both  would simply mean the character just has simply one origin.

[ZeeHero]

On 9/10/2019 at 2:18 AM, Heraclea said:

If your character uses anything but their hands to attack - say, a broadsword - that in itself justifies a Technology origin.  A broadsword is technology, 

 

Mind you, most of my broadsword characters would be at a loss to explain how their broadsword works. 

Not neccesarily. You could easily be a mutant who is super fast and strong but lacks enough destructive power to take on higher level villains- and hence has taken up a giant heavy weapon.

[Heraclea]

3 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Not neccesarily. You could easily be a mutant who is super fast and strong but lacks enough destructive power to take on higher level villains- and hence has taken up a giant heavy weapon.

That works too.  But a broadsword (axe, mace, gun, bow) is a tool; all tools are technology; therefore any weapon is technology. 

[Flashtoo]

9 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Not neccesarily. You could easily be a mutant who is super fast and strong but lacks enough destructive power to take on higher level villains- and hence has taken up a giant heavy weapon.

Justifies technology, not demands it. Nobody's implying the mutation can't be the more important part of the character even when a piece of technology is key to their MO, like your proposed super-strong Titan Weapon wielder (who might not be able to handle a weapon like that without that mutant strength) or my archer (a tactile-telekinetic; any projectile leaving her hand homes in on its target). However, in both cases, if you felt like it you could justify a technology origin, because without their weapons they'd be very different characters, right?

[ZeeHero]

This is why a system which allows a Primary and Secondary origin woulda been nicer.