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Archetype Proposal Amalgamation Thread


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Just under two and a half hours left for voting in the Great Archetype Concept Battle, and before we go to the semi-finals, I would like to take a look at the breakdown of the quarterfinal ATs...

 

Manipulation/Assault

Melee/Support

Assault/Armor

Assault/{Pet/Armor/Support}

Melee/{Support/Armor}

Assault/{Armor/Control}

Support/Melee

Melee/{Support/Armor}

 

Just taking a look at that, every set is either melee or assault (half and half) and six of the eight are paired with a type of support. What I'm reading is that the type of new AT people would want would be either a Melee or Assault set paired with a Support-like secondary. Five of the proposals have armor mixed into the secondary (only one is pure armor). In other words, the voting thus far suggests that the community would like an assault or melee primary with a mixed secondary that is some combination of armor and support (with either control or pets mixed in).

While I am going to continue the Great Archetype battle, I thought that this would be a good time to start putting together a community-designed Archetype proposal. I would like to start off with a short discussion of the Powerset composition that we think would be the best. The goal here is to aim towards a consensus, not to make personal proposals or tear eachother down. Our goal is to come together as a community and talk about what would be the best new Archetype to expand into City of Heroes.

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Archetype Concept Compilation -- Powerset Concept Compilations: Assault Melee

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The Great Archetype Concept Battle: Final Round

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Archetype Proposal Amalgamation

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I can only really speak from personal preference and opinion, at least to get the conversation rolling,

 

Personally I would really like a Melee/Support AT, mixing armor into the secondary is simply something that feels like a necessary compromise.

 

As far as assault I think that's another I'd be willing to compromise on. As I know some people do really enjoy them, and adding a touch of ranged damage to the AT might help it not melt quite so quickly in higher end content. This would also allow their to be a Assault Primary AT capable of actually dealing a bit more damage than a Dominator Though not all that much more depending on the Secondary, and the General Focus of the AT as a whole.

 

Some people seem to like the Idea of a Flex AT, while this is not my ideal outcome, it might be interesting to see an AT that can Swap Between Support, Tank, and DPS. Though I fear such an AT would be a bit too busy.

 

A lot of people myself included seem to want a an AT that fills the same roll as a Paladin would in other games, a Front Liner or Tank with Group Support. Personally I would settle for a Scrapper Level Defence, with reduced damage and solid Group Support. But If a Tank/Support AT is possible I think it might be an interesting addition.

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My suggestion would be to go with Assault as the primary, as it is underused. This would also make sense for Paladins, as they tend to have a mix of melee and ranged attacks. This would also help differentiate them from the other melee classes.

 

The secondary is more complex. I would recommend a mix of defense, control, and buffs. The defense would likely be Scrapper levelish for individual powers, but would end up being Sentinel levelish because fewer powers are used to get to the end result.

The general breakdown I am thinking is:

T1 broad-based defense, resist, absorb, or mixture thereof.

T2 PBAoE or TAoE heal

Followed by 3 more defensive powers, 2-3 buffs or debuffs, and 1-2 AoE control.

This would provide a good breadth of abilities with suitable sustainability, but minimal toestepping.

 

Anyone else have thoughts?

Archetype Concept Compilation -- Powerset Concept Compilations: Assault Melee

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The Great Archetype Concept Battle: Final Round

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Archetype Proposal Amalgamation

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20 minutes ago, Zepp said:

My suggestion would be to go with Assault as the primary, as it is underused. This would also make sense for Paladins, as they tend to have a mix of melee and ranged attacks. This would also help differentiate them from the other melee classes.

 

The secondary is more complex. I would recommend a mix of defense, control, and buffs. The defense would likely be Scrapper levelish for individual powers, but would end up being Sentinel levelish because fewer powers are used to get to the end result.

The general breakdown I am thinking is:

T1 broad-based defense, resist, absorb, or mixture thereof.

T2 PBAoE or TAoE heal

Followed by 3 more defensive powers, 2-3 buffs or debuffs, and 1-2 AoE control.

This would provide a good breadth of abilities with suitable sustainability, but minimal toestepping.

 

Anyone else have thoughts?

Should avoid making the AT too busy if we are indeed going to go with Assault/(Support/Defense) adding the CC on top is going to make the AT far too Broad and only add to it's overall identity issues. That being said this could differ from powerset to powerst as many Defender primaries have one, two, or even three CC abilities built in (Looking at you Storm Summoning you magnificent bastard). The AT already has issues with Support/Defense as one of it's powersets. Adding on top of that assault is bad enough, and then on top of that adding CC, is just going to end in tragedy. 

 

One way to mitigate some of the classes issues is to do something akin to the original Interceptor concepts, having a Tankier mode, A Support mode, and or a DPS mode. Or more Ideally a more Defensive mode and a more Supportive mode with DPS being more or less consistent. This could be done either Via a Toggle or some kind of Mechanic that triggers the different modes under different circumstances. This way the AT can either be a Tank with juwst a bit of support, or a Support with just a bit of Tank, but rarely both at the same time.

 

Of course their are already a ton of Melee/Support AT suggestions out there. What if instead we paired the two most underused Powersets together. Assault, and the Blaster secondary's... Bakeing an Assault Primary AT intended to sit right next to the Scrapper and the Blaster on the DPS charts. 🙂

 

Edited by Pbuckley818
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7 minutes ago, Pbuckley818 said:

Of course their are already a ton of Melee/Support AT suggestions out there. What if instead we paired the two most underused Powersets together. Assault, and the Blaster secondary's... Bakeing an Assault Primary AT intended to sit right next to the Scrapper and the Blaster on the DPS charts. 🙂

 

I suggested that with the Zoomer (I placed manipulation in front, but it would work as well in the opposite direction). How about taking that combo, removing the T1 immobilize and replacing it with a broad-based PBAoE click defense/resist power (something similar to Mind Link).

Archetype Concept Compilation -- Powerset Concept Compilations: Assault Melee

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The Great Archetype Concept Battle: Final Round

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Archetype Proposal Amalgamation

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1 minute ago, Zepp said:

I suggested that with the Zoomer (I placed manipulation in front, but it would work as well in the opposite direction). How about taking that combo, removing the T1 immobilize and replacing it with a broad-based PBAoE click defense/resist power (something similar to Mind Link).

Not sure but a little added defense wouldn't hurt, though some might not needed it as badly as others.

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Melee/Support, on its face, will not function. I know that's what everyone wants, but it just will not work as the powers are currently implemented.

 

Melee/Armor-Support could function to a limited degree, since it could focus on AoE protection for defensive sets, but Resistance Sets would be SoL, and the AT as a whole would have a lot of trouble soloing.

 

For a true "Melee/Support Hybrid" we'd need a specific type of power: Group Defenses. Things like Forcefield's and Sonic's big-bubbles, or the Leadership functions of VEATs.

 

So instead of having Invuln/Empathy with 3-4 empathy powers and 5-6 Invuln Powers we'd need a straight up 9 tier powerset that provides a small benefit to the character using them and a small benefit to their allies. And they could -not- function as Force-Multipliers like Defenders or Corruptors can.

 

For the sake of argument let's use Invuln and call the AT "Paladin" as a test case for this idea:

 

Invulnerability_ResToPhysicalDmg.png Resist Physical Damage > Increased Durability: Auto. Provides 3.5% S/L Resistance and 25% Defense Debuff Protection to the Paladin that is unenhanceable and a further 4% S/L Res to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft that can be enhanced.

Invulnerability_TemporaryInvulnerabilty. Temporary Invulnerability > Shared Resilience: Toggle. Provides 11.25% S/L Resistance to the Paladin that is unehanceable, and a further 11.25% SL Resistance to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft that can be enhanced.

Invulnerability_DullPain.png Dull Pain > Inure to Pain: Click. Provides 19.99% +Max HP and 19.99% healing to the Paladin that is unenhanceable and a further 20% +Max HP and Healing to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft that can be enhanced.

Invulnerability_ResToSpecialDmg.png Resist Elements > Elemental Protection:  Auto. Provides 3.5% F/C Resistance and 25% Defense Debuff Protection to the Paladin that is unenhanceable and a further 4% F/C Res to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft that can be enhanced.

Invulnerability_UnyeildlingStance.png Unyielding > Unbowed: Toggle. Provides Mez Protection to the Paladin that cannot be enhanced. Provides 3.75% Resistance to all damage except Psionics to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft which can be enhanced.

Invulnerability_ResToCosmicDmag.png Resist Energies > Energy Protection: Auto. Provides 3.5% E/N Resistance and 25% Defense Debuff Protection to the Paladin that is unenhanceable and a further 4% E/N Res to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft that can be enhanced.

Invulnerability_Invincibility.png Invincible > Enduring: Toggle. Provides 7% Defense to all types to the Paladin that is unenhanceable. Provides 3.5% defense to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft that can be enhanced.

Invulnerability_ToughHide.png Tough Hide > Thick Skin: Auto. Provides 3.75% Defense to all types to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft. This value can be enhanced.

Invulnerability_Unstoppable.png Unstoppable > Unleashed: Click. Provides 25% Resistance to all types except Psionic to the Paladin that cannot be enhanced. Grants 25% resistance to the Paladin up to 8 allies within 20ft that can be enhanced. When this power ends the Paladin is left Exhausted and has their endurance reduced to 0 and their endurance total reduced by 50 for 30 seconds.

 

Assuming the Paladin slots for as much buff as possible:

 

Resistances for Allies

S/L 28.5%

F/C 10.5% 

N/E 10.5%

 

Defenses for Allies

All Types 10.5% 

 

Max HP: +40%

 

And for themselves:

S/L 45.5%

F/C 14%

N/E 14%

Defenses: 17.5% all types

Max HP: +59.9%

 

Each Defensive set could be modified in this way, to provide half it's bonus to the Paladin and a further (and enhanceable) half to the Paladin and nearby targets. But certain powersets, like Dark or Bio Armor, would create some sticky wickets. It would be best to simply remove them as potential defensive sets for the "Meleefender" archetype, regardless of what you name it.

 

This way the Paladin in the proposal is not as well defended as a scrapper while also providing support. Coming out, in the end, a bit like a Sentinel as far as it's survivability goes. With some slotting it could hit Defensive or Resistance caps... but it wouldn't get there overnight.

 

@ZeppIs this what you wanted?

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4 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Melee/Support, on its face, will not function. I know that's what everyone wants, but it just will not work as the powers are currently implemented.

 

Melee/Armor-Support could function to a limited degree, since it could focus on AoE protection for defensive sets, but Resistance Sets would be SoL, and the AT as a whole would have a lot of trouble soloing.

 

For a true "Melee/Support Hybrid" we'd need a specific type of power: Group Defenses. Things like Forcefield's and Sonic's big-bubbles, or the Leadership functions of VEATs.

 

So instead of having Invuln/Empathy with 3-4 empathy powers and 5-6 Invuln Powers we'd need a straight up 9 tier powerset that provides a small benefit to the character using them and a small benefit to their allies. And they could -not- function as Force-Multipliers like Defenders or Corruptors can.

 

For the sake of argument let's use Invuln and call the AT "Paladin" as a test case for this idea:

 

Invulnerability_ResToPhysicalDmg.png Resist Physical Damage > Increased Durability: Auto. Provides 3.5% S/L Resistance and 25% Defense Debuff Protection to the Paladin that is unenhanceable and a further 4% S/L Res to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft that can be enhanced.

Invulnerability_TemporaryInvulnerabilty. Temporary Invulnerability > Shared Resilience: Toggle. Provides 11.25% S/L Resistance to the Paladin that is unehanceable, and a further 11.25% SL Resistance to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft that can be enhanced.

Invulnerability_DullPain.png Dull Pain > Inure to Pain: Click. Provides 19.99% +Max HP and 19.99% healing to the Paladin that is unenhanceable and a further 20% +Max HP and Healing to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft that can be enhanced.

Invulnerability_ResToSpecialDmg.png Resist Elements > Elemental Protection:  Auto. Provides 3.5% F/C Resistance and 25% Defense Debuff Protection to the Paladin that is unenhanceable and a further 4% F/C Res to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft that can be enhanced.

Invulnerability_UnyeildlingStance.png Unyielding > Unbowed: Toggle. Provides Mez Protection to the Paladin that cannot be enhanced. Provides 3.75% Resistance to all damage except Psionics to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft which can be enhanced.

Invulnerability_ResToCosmicDmag.png Resist Energies > Energy Protection: Auto. Provides 3.5% E/N Resistance and 25% Defense Debuff Protection to the Paladin that is unenhanceable and a further 4% E/N Res to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft that can be enhanced.

Invulnerability_Invincibility.png Invincible > Enduring: Toggle. Provides 7% Defense to all types to the Paladin that is unenhanceable. Provides 3.5% defense to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft that can be enhanced.

Invulnerability_ToughHide.png Tough Hide > Thick Skin: Auto. Provides 3.75% Defense to all types to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft. This value can be enhanced.

Invulnerability_Unstoppable.png Unstoppable > Unleashed: Click. Provides 25% Resistance to all types except Psionic to the Paladin that cannot be enhanced. Grants 25% resistance to the Paladin up to 8 allies within 20ft that can be enhanced. When this power ends the Paladin is left Exhausted and has their endurance reduced to 0 and their endurance total reduced by 50 for 30 seconds.

 

Assuming the Paladin slots for as much buff as possible:

 

Resistances for Allies

S/L 28.5%

F/C 10.5% 

N/E 10.5%

 

Defenses for Allies

All Types 10.5% 

 

Max HP: +40%

 

And for themselves:

S/L 45.5%

F/C 14%

N/E 14%

Defenses: 17.5% all types

Max HP: +59.9%

 

Each Defensive set could be modified in this way, to provide half it's bonus to the Paladin and a further (and enhanceable) half to the Paladin and nearby targets. But certain powersets, like Dark or Bio Armor, would create some sticky wickets. It would be best to simply remove them as potential defensive sets for the "Meleefender" archetype, regardless of what you name it.

 

This way the Paladin in the proposal is not as well defended as a scrapper while also providing support. Coming out, in the end, a bit like a Sentinel as far as it's survivability goes. With some slotting it could hit Defensive or Resistance caps... but it wouldn't get there overnight.

 

@ZeppIs this what you wanted?

That looks about like what would have to be done, though personally I feel like willpower or regeneration matches up better (at least thematically) with the Psychic Healing (Empathy, and Pain Domination) powersets. Maybe Invuln and Forcefield?

 

If we did this I'd personally want at least half as many options as their are for assault.

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19 minutes ago, Pbuckley818 said:

That looks about like what would have to be done, though personally I feel like willpower or regeneration matches up better (at least thematically) with the Psychic Healing (Empathy, and Pain Domination) powersets. Maybe Invuln and Forcefield?

 

If we did this I'd personally want at least half as many options as their are for assault.

I wasn't crossing Invuln with Empathy in that powerset. I was saying that there's people who would want to put together a sprinkle of Support Powers into a Defensive Powerset. It's just not a reasonable idea because you wind up with characters who can't take care of themselves -or- their team.

 

Which is why I came up with the idea of splitting defensive powers between the character and their allies, and to offset the increased power make half the value unenhanceable and apply only to the caster. That way the support increases aren't -huge-, but don't leave the melee-fighting support character with giant gaps in their defenses.

 

Would you like me to do Willpower next? I could.

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2 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

I wasn't crossing Invuln with Empathy in that powerset. I was saying that there's people who would want to put together a sprinkle of Support Powers into a Defensive Powerset. It's just not a reasonable idea because you wind up with characters who can't take care of themselves -or- their team.

 

Which is why I came up with the idea of splitting defensive powers between the character and their allies, and to offset the increased power make half the value unenhanceable and apply only to the caster. That way the support increases aren't -huge-, but don't leave the melee-fighting support character with giant gaps in their defenses.

 

Would you like me to do Willpower next? I could.

It does seem a pretty good solution.

If you have time. Yes.

I hadn't thought about working with the Defenses as a base, but it might work better this way, at least for the most part. I really want a Storm Melee guy though, so maybe I could piecemeal something?

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Willpower_HighPainTolerance.png High Pain Tolerance > Comfortably Numb: Auto. Grants the Paladin 2%  Resistance to all damage types and +9.99% additional Max HP, that is unenhanceable and a further 3.63% Resistance to all damage types and +10% additional Max HP to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft that can be enhanced.

Willpower_HighPainTolerance.png Mind Over Body > Ignore Pain: Toggle. Grants the Paladin 6.88% Resistance to S/L/P that is unenhanceable and a further 10% S/L/P Resistance to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft that can be enhanced.

Willpower_FastHealing.png Fast Healing > Swift Mending: Auto. Grants the Paladin 25% Regeneration Rate that cannot be enhanced and a further 50% Regeneration and 25% resistance to Regen Debuffs to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft that can be enhanced.

Willpower_IndomitableWill.png Indomitable Will > Mental Fortress: Grants the Paladin Mez Protection, and grants the Paladin and all nearby allies 7.5% defense to Psionic Damage which can be enhanced.

Willpower_RiseToTheChallenge.png Rise to the Challenge > Challenger: Grants the Paladin 75% Regeneration Rate which cannot be enhanced, also grants a further 125% Regeneration Rate to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft that can be enhanced.

Willpower_QuickRecovery.png Quick Recovery > Enduring: Auto. Grants the Paladin 10% Endurance Recovery that cannot be enhanced, grants a further 20% endurance recovery to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft that can be enhanced.

Willpower_HeightenedSenses.png Heightened Senses > Awareness: Grants the Paladin 2.31% Defense to all types except Psionic that cannot be enhanced, grants a further 7.1% E/N/F/C Defense to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft that can be enhanced.

Willpower_Resurgence.png Resurgence > Down but not Out: Click. Self-Rez and Ally Rez targeting up to 8 allies within 20ft. Once rezzed, all allies gain a 20% ToHit and Damage Bonus for 90 seconds, the Paladin gains the same increase but after 90 seconds takes a 5% ToHit and Damage penalty for 45 seconds.

Willpower_StrengthOfWill.png Strength of Will > Conviction. Click. Grants the Paladin 7.5% Resistance to all damage types and 10% Endurance Recovery that cannot be enhanced, grants a further 10% Resistance to all damage types and 20% Endurance Recover to the Paladin and up to 8 allies within 20ft. At the end of 120s the Paladin's maximum Endurance is reduced by 50 for 30 seconds.

 

There y'go. Willpower.

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@Steampunkette, I like your ideas. That being said, I'm not sure adding a fifth AT to the Melee/Armor spectrum is the best way to go, which seems to be where you are heading with this.
 

I have two issues in particular. First, I think adding a second Assault AT would be better than adding a fifth Melee AT. Second, I think what the evidence suggests people are attracted to is the flavor of buff/debuff sets in a non-ranged AT. The issue is that with Assault (even moreso with Melee), there needs to be a degree of survivability. That is why the concept of a mixed set is so often suggested. The issue is that the powerscale for the powers in the mixed set would be difficult to balance between functionality and equipoise with other ATs.

 

That can be done in a number of ways. Your suggestion is one way. This provides a good deal of survivability and a team benefit. Unfortunately, it is a lot less flavorful than the buff/debuff or manipulation sets. Another way is to have four broader-spectrum defense/resist powers that provide Stalker/Sentinel-level defense/resist (or thereabouts) and a handful of buffs/debuffs. This is less survivable, and requires more development, but it does preserve the flavor. A third way is to use the Manipulation powersets, but replace the T1 with something that is like Hide for Stalkers, except closer to Mindlink in functionality. The combination of the T1 defense and the Manipulation sustain power would provide a lower level of protection, while offering a lot of flavor and providing sufficient distance from Defenders.

I tend towards the Assault/Manipulation* approach, but I'm open to hearing some other suggestions outside this list, or endorsements for the other two paths.

@Pbuckley818 You have inspired me to start working on a Storm Manipulation proposal...

Archetype Concept Compilation -- Powerset Concept Compilations: Assault Melee

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The Great Archetype Concept Battle: Final Round

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Archetype Proposal Amalgamation

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5 hours ago, Zepp said:

@Steampunkette, I like your ideas. That being said, I'm not sure adding a fifth AT to the Melee/Armor spectrum is the best way to go, which seems to be where you are heading with this.
 

I have two issues in particular. First, I think adding a second Assault AT would be better than adding a fifth Melee AT. Second, I think what the evidence suggests people are attracted to is the flavor of buff/debuff sets in a non-ranged AT. The issue is that with Assault (even moreso with Melee), there needs to be a degree of survivability. That is why the concept of a mixed set is so often suggested. The issue is that the powerscale for the powers in the mixed set would be difficult to balance between functionality and equipoise with other ATs.

 

That can be done in a number of ways. Your suggestion is one way. This provides a good deal of survivability and a team benefit. Unfortunately, it is a lot less flavorful than the buff/debuff or manipulation sets. Another way is to have four broader-spectrum defense/resist powers that provide Stalker/Sentinel-level defense/resist (or thereabouts) and a handful of buffs/debuffs. This is less survivable, and requires more development, but it does preserve the flavor. A third way is to use the Manipulation powersets, but replace the T1 with something that is like Hide for Stalkers, except closer to Mindlink in functionality. The combination of the T1 defense and the Manipulation sustain power would provide a lower level of protection, while offering a lot of flavor and providing sufficient distance from Defenders.

I tend towards the Assault/Manipulation* approach, but I'm open to hearing some other suggestions outside this list, or endorsements for the other two paths.

@Pbuckley818 You have inspired me to start working on a Storm Manipulation proposal...

That's what people are leaning towards, yeah. Everyone wants a Melee Support. As to making it Assault/GDefense... yeah okay. We could do that... but it'd just be a variation on the Guardian which was worked on and shopped to another server. They used 'Composition' as a secondary which is the 'Armor set but with a few Support powers sprinkled in' that I described, before.

 

Honestly, if we wanted to do Assault with the type of "Group Defense" powerset I've described, it would be better as a GDefense/Assault rather than Assault/GDefense archetype. That way both the self-buffing and group-buffing effects are the primary function and Ranged/Melee attacks are a secondary powerset.

 

If Assault is to be a primary it really needs a pretty solid Mitigation secondary. I could see a Defense/Control hybrid, but it doesn't feel like something we can reasonably expect, while a strictly defensive secondary is more reasonable.

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... what -would- a Defense/Control powerset spectrum look like...

 

Firstly it would need to rely on 'Lesser' controls to avoid overstepping onto the toes of a Controller or Dominator. Perhaps smaller areas and lower target counts rather than smaller magnitudes? Sleeps, Fears, Stuns. Stuff that provides absolute mitigation but doesn't create battlefield control...

 

Willpower/Mind Control as a 'Mental Protection' powerset

Bio Armor/Plant Control as a 'Wild Protection' powerset

Elec/Elec

Invuln/Earth

Energy/Energy

Dark/Dark

Fire/Fire

Ice/Ice

 

But using clicks from your defensive set to put down controls could also provide direct mitigation... Like instead of a 20 second Mass Hypnosis sleep you get a 10 second sleep on up to 8 targets in a 15ft radius and each target hit grants you a +Regen buff instead of Rise to the Challenge being a toggled Buff that grants regen based on enemies near you..?

 

That is another thing, since you'd need to get rid of taunt auras so these Assault Characters don't perpetually stand in melee.

 

Could have the Defensive Powers in the Protection Sets provide small Control Boosts, too? Like using High Pain Tolerance to get a durational increase on Holds while it's toggled on. Or it increases the Knockback of some Telekinesis style "push 'em around" power that comes later in the set...

 

 

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Thank you for mentioning the other issue with doing Assault/{Armor/Support}, it  would closely resemble what is already being done on another server. I understand where you are coming from, in terms of either moving mitigation to the primary or having a solid mitigation secondary, but I think that having a lower level of mitigation can encourage placement as mitigation (to focus on using the full Assault set), while also making them better at Support. I think we are looking at an AT that has a more balanced approach to DPS/Mitigation/Support rather than focusing only on one or two.

Archetype Concept Compilation -- Powerset Concept Compilations: Assault Melee

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The Great Archetype Concept Battle: Final Round

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Archetype Proposal Amalgamation

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11 minutes ago, Zepp said:

Thank you for mentioning the other issue with doing Assault/{Armor/Support}, it  would closely resemble what is already being done on another server. I understand where you are coming from, in terms of either moving mitigation to the primary or having a solid mitigation secondary, but I think that having a lower level of mitigation can encourage placement as mitigation (to focus on using the full Assault set), while also making them better at Support. I think we are looking at an AT that has a more balanced approach to DPS/Mitigation/Support rather than focusing only on one or two.

With the proposed Group Defense Sets concept I included upthread placement is a nonstarter. You'd -have- to be so close to the people you're providing buffs to that ranged damage really isn't much of an option. And because it would be a leashed effect rather than a buff applied to target, corner positioning and the like means your buffs drop off your allies.

 

And standing within 20 feet of a mob and attacking means they have the time to close the distance in the time it takes you to make a single attack, so assault sets don't really make a whole lot of sense. You're not getting a real 'defensive benefit' from range because you have to hang near the melees.

 

Now if the SENTINEL were to use these Group Defense sets then they'd be a "Stack Guarder". Hang out with the squishies at longish range providing some dps and increased safety to controllers/defenders/etc to encourage team-movement... But even that I'm iffy on.

 

Group Defense really just strikes me as a D&D Paladin sharing her Auras with nearby party members on the front lines. Small area, small bonuses, but big impact thanks to stacking. I.E. the Tanker/Brute/Scrapper/Stalker has 'decent' defensive abilities at 24, this character makes them all better without sacrificing too much of their own survival in the process.

 

I feel like an Assault character would be best suited as a mitigator. Mitigating damage through movement/range, mitigating damage through defensive abilities, and maybe mitigating damage through control.

1 minute ago, Rylas said:

Personally, I'm crossing my fingers for the Assault/{Armor/Control}. I know it's not the likely favorite, but it offers a broad mix that could make for some unique play; ranged, melee, armor and control. 

I'd love that, too... but it's just not what people want. They want 'Paladins' by any other name.

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The Duo is cleaning the floor with a Paladin-esque AT proposal atm, so that is another option we should consider. Some people do want a Paladin-esque AT, but how do we do that in the CoH framework. Also, what exactly do people want from a Paladin-esque AT. Depending on the context you are looking at, some Paladins are designed like Defenders, others are more like Tankers, while there are also some Melee/Ranged versions as well. What it appears the data suggests is that Assault is fairly popular, as is Melee. People also seem to want a Support or Support-ish set.

Then the discussion goes to, how can we best meet that need while not stepping on the toes of other ATs or "stealing" Guardians from Rebirth.

 

The idea of a Melee/Armor* set is a good one, but it would be joining four other Melee/Armor sets, and if some Tankers are mad about Brutes now, just think about how they'll feel with that version of Paladins...

 

I love control, but my personal enjoyment of that playstyle does not seem to be reflected in the desire for a buff/debuff oriented AT. Looking at Manipulation, it offers some good ideas. That being said, Manipulation sets tend to have four-five (on average) damage-focused attacks, and insufficient support. However, moving to Assault would allow Melee attacks in the primary, opening up four-ish slots for group Buffs/Debuffs. Again, I think a T1 Mindlink-ish power that is universal across sets in addition to the Sustain power already in these sets would provide sufficient mitigation. Add in the self-buffs from these sets, and some team buffs, and the sets look like they have a the right mix for a Support AT that can be in Melee, but maybe not all the time.

Archetype Concept Compilation -- Powerset Concept Compilations: Assault Melee

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The Great Archetype Concept Battle: Final Round

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Archetype Proposal Amalgamation

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Actually, I am rethinking Manipulation sets. Rather than using them as a base, it may be better to have Mindlink T1, Manipulation sustain power T4-T5, and the rest just based on Support sets.

Archetype Concept Compilation -- Powerset Concept Compilations: Assault Melee

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The Great Archetype Concept Battle: Final Round

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Archetype Proposal Amalgamation

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A GDefense/Melee character could be a viable alternative to 'Another Melee/Defense', though.

 

By putting the GDefense first we wind up increasing the overall buffing output by around 30% and create a commensurate DPS drop through secondary attacks. Without aggro gathering abilities (We could swap Confront/Taunt for Placate, even) it shouldn't step on the toes of anyone, really. A Buffer who deals slightly better than tanker damage in melee but has neither the aggro control nor the durability of a Tanker.

 

As to the "Mindlink T1" that's way too powerful an ability for an early game character, to start with, and due to it's intentionally long recharge time (Because recharge rate buffs exist) you'd wind up using it to provide way too much buffing way too infrequently.

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I do feel it is important to remember that enemy debuffing particularly -res take a great deal of priority whene it comes to the Buff/Debuff sets. Simply adding an AT that's buffs group Defense and maybe Heals a bit, won't fill that same Niche. Yet we also have to worry about the danger of creating what is essentially a defender with better defense. One idea to build a set that gives you all the essential powers, while removing a lot of the fun/fancy utility powers that defenders enjoy. Though would anyone really want a Kinetics Meleefender if they didn't get the speedboosts?

 

As far as my concern is, I personally want a support character that fight's on the front line, as far as I am concerned Assault is to a degree a compromise to achieve this in a feasible way. But if in the process of making the AT it looses the ability to be what I wanted in the first place, would I really be interested in playing it? Their have been some interesting suggestions made, at this point I feel like their would need to be unique Support/Defense powersets made using a combination of two thematically complimentary Support and Defense powers. On top of that we would likely need to adopt some of Steampunkettes idea, poarticularly the part about the defensive buffs granting just a bit more defense to the subject but only has a flat buff.

 

I think I already have a pretty good place to start from.

 

Spoiler
Charged Armor

When you toggle on this power, you surround yourself in a charged field that makes you resistant to Smashing, Lethal, and Energy damage.


Recharge: Fast. Effects; Toggle, Self+Resistance (Smash, Lethal, Energy).


Note: Make this into a PBAoE that functions akin to the way Steampunkette suggested.

Second Wind

Saturate the air around yourself with rich oxygen and take a deep breath, healing yourself and nearby allies. This second wind will provide protection against Sleep, Stun, & Endurance Drain Effects. (Uses O2Boost Visual Effect)


Recharge: Moderate. Effects; PBAoE, Team: Heal + Resistance (Disorient, Sleep, Endurance Drain)


Note: Frankly this is how O2 Boost should function to begin with. Maybe make it heal the AT for a bit more (albeit a flat amount)

Chilling Embrace

While Active, You Dramatically Lower the Temperature around yourself, Slowing the Attack Rate of All Nearby Foes, as well as their Movement Speed. (The Taunt has been Removed)


Recharge: Very Fast. Effects; PBAoE Toggle, Foe -Recharge -Speed -Damage.


Note: No change.

Steamy Mist

Your mastery of the elements allows you to hide yourself and all nearby allies within a Steamy Mist. Steamy Mist makes you and your allies harder to see and increases your Defense bonus to all attacks, while reducing Fire, Cold, and Energy damage, as well as your Foes ability to Confuse you and your allies. You cannot use any other Concealment type powers while using Steamy Mist. (No Change)


Recharge: Slow. Effects; PBAoE Toggle, Team Stealth, Team +Defense (All) +Resistance (Fire, Cold, Energy, Confuse).


Note: Add a flat def/res buff to the casterer.

Freezing Rain

Summons Freezing Rain at a targeted location. Freezing Rain deals minimal Cold damage to anything that passes through the storm. It also Slows the affected foes and severely reduces their Defense and resistance to damage. Many foes may even slip and fall trying to escape the storm. (No Change)


Recharge: Long. Effects; Ranged (Located Area of Effect, Foe -Speed, -Recharge, -Defense, -Resistance.


Note: No change.

Vortex

You form a barrier of swirling wind and rain around yourself, the powerful winds surrounding you will grant yourself an all nearby allies increased ranged and AoE Defense, as well as reduce the range and accuracy of all nearby foes. (Uses Hurricane’s Animation)


Recharge: Slow. Effects; PBAoE Toggle, Self+Defense (Ranged, AoE), Foe -Range -Accuracy.


Note: No change.

Thunderclap

You can call forth a tremendous Thunderclap that will Disorient most foes in a large area around you.


Recharge: Slow. Effects; PBAoE, Foe Disorient.


Note: No change.

Power Sink

Power Sink leeches’ energy directly from the bodies of all nearby foes, draining their Endurance. Each foe you draw energy from increases your Endurance. If there are no foes within range, you will not gain any Endurance.


Recharge: Long. Effects; PBAoE, Self +Endurance, Foe -Endurance.


Note: won't lie this choice was a bit lazy, needed to get rid of tornado, and was thinking the endurance drain would be useful. At the same time though an actual defensive power might be better to have overall. Thene again with the AT going Assault maybe it's best to leave this one.

Lightning Storm

You can create a massive Lightning Storm that will strike any foe that approaches you. Lightning from this storm can knock down and damage all nearby foes and can even instill panic. Lightning bolts will continue to fall as long as the storm remains.


Damage: High Damage (Energy). Recharge: Long. Effects; Create Storm: Ranged, High Damage (Energy), Foe -Endurance.


Note: No change.

 

 

The main issue with powersets like this would be Endurance upkeep which could be solved via the AT'a inherent.

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9 minutes ago, Pbuckley818 said:

I do feel it is important to remember that enemy debuffing particularly -res take a great deal of priority whene it comes to the Buff/Debuff sets. Simply adding an AT that's buffs group Defense and maybe Heals a bit, won't fill that same Niche. Yet we also have to worry about the danger of creating what is essentially a defender with better defense. One idea to build a set that gives you all the essential powers, while removing a lot of the fun/fancy utility powers that defenders enjoy. Though would anyone really want a Kinetics Meleefender if they didn't get the speedboosts?

 

As far as my concern is, I personally want a support character that fight's on the front line, as far as I am concerned Assault is to a degree a compromise to achieve this in a feasible way. But if in the process of making the AT it looses the ability to be what I wanted in the first place, would I really be interested in playing it? Their have been some interesting suggestions made, at this point I feel like their would need to be unique Support/Defense powersets made using a combination of two thematically complimentary Support and Defense powers. On top of that we would likely need to adopt some of Steampunkettes idea, poarticularly the part about the defensive buffs granting just a bit more defense to the subject but only has a flat buff.

 

I think I already have a pretty good place to start from.

 

  Hide contents
Charged Armor

When you toggle on this power, you surround yourself in a charged field that makes you resistant to Smashing, Lethal, and Energy damage.


Recharge: Fast. Effects; Toggle, Self+Resistance (Smash, Lethal, Energy).


Note: Make this into a PBAoE that functions akin to the way Steampunkette suggested.

Second Wind

Saturate the air around yourself with rich oxygen and take a deep breath, healing yourself and nearby allies. This second wind will provide protection against Sleep, Stun, & Endurance Drain Effects. (Uses O2Boost Visual Effect)


Recharge: Moderate. Effects; PBAoE, Team: Heal + Resistance (Disorient, Sleep, Endurance Drain)


Note: Frankly this is how O2 Boost should function to begin with. Maybe make it heal the AT for a bit more (albeit a flat amount)

Chilling Embrace

While Active, You Dramatically Lower the Temperature around yourself, Slowing the Attack Rate of All Nearby Foes, as well as their Movement Speed. (The Taunt has been Removed)


Recharge: Very Fast. Effects; PBAoE Toggle, Foe -Recharge -Speed -Damage.


Note: No change.

Steamy Mist

Your mastery of the elements allows you to hide yourself and all nearby allies within a Steamy Mist. Steamy Mist makes you and your allies harder to see and increases your Defense bonus to all attacks, while reducing Fire, Cold, and Energy damage, as well as your Foes ability to Confuse you and your allies. You cannot use any other Concealment type powers while using Steamy Mist. (No Change)


Recharge: Slow. Effects; PBAoE Toggle, Team Stealth, Team +Defense (All) +Resistance (Fire, Cold, Energy, Confuse).


Note: Add a flat def/res buff to the casterer.

Freezing Rain

Summons Freezing Rain at a targeted location. Freezing Rain deals minimal Cold damage to anything that passes through the storm. It also Slows the affected foes and severely reduces their Defense and resistance to damage. Many foes may even slip and fall trying to escape the storm. (No Change)


Recharge: Long. Effects; Ranged (Located Area of Effect, Foe -Speed, -Recharge, -Defense, -Resistance.


Note: No change.

Vortex

You form a barrier of swirling wind and rain around yourself, the powerful winds surrounding you will grant yourself an all nearby allies increased ranged and AoE Defense, as well as reduce the range and accuracy of all nearby foes. (Uses Hurricane’s Animation)


Recharge: Slow. Effects; PBAoE Toggle, Self+Defense (Ranged, AoE), Foe -Range -Accuracy.


Note: No change.

Thunderclap

You can call forth a tremendous Thunderclap that will Disorient most foes in a large area around you.


Recharge: Slow. Effects; PBAoE, Foe Disorient.


Note: No change.

Power Sink

Power Sink leeches’ energy directly from the bodies of all nearby foes, draining their Endurance. Each foe you draw energy from increases your Endurance. If there are no foes within range, you will not gain any Endurance.


Recharge: Long. Effects; PBAoE, Self +Endurance, Foe -Endurance.


Note: won't lie this choice was a bit lazy, needed to get rid of tornado, and was thinking the endurance drain would be useful. At the same time though an actual defensive power might be better to have overall. Thene again with the AT going Assault maybe it's best to leave this one.

Lightning Storm

You can create a massive Lightning Storm that will strike any foe that approaches you. Lightning from this storm can knock down and damage all nearby foes and can even instill panic. Lightning bolts will continue to fall as long as the storm remains.


Damage: High Damage (Energy). Recharge: Long. Effects; Create Storm: Ranged, High Damage (Energy), Foe -Endurance.


Note: No change.

 

 

The main issue with powersets like this would be Endurance upkeep which could be solved via the AT'a inherent.

So... what I see, here, is a melee character with a bunch of buff/debuff. But their defensive abilities include 2/3rd of a personal resistance power on SLE, the Defense and Resistance from one Stealth Power, some AoE/Ranged Defense from one power... and nothing else.

 

So we're looking at 20ish% resistance to SLE, a further 10-14% resistance to Cold, Fire, and Energy, 3-5% Defense to most stuff and around 12-15% Defense to AoE and Range.

 

This character would not survive getting aggro and would probably get murdered by AoE in Melee unless they also happened to have a Defender/Corruptor on the team explicitly buffing their survivability. 

 

This is why "Take a Support Set and add some Defense to it!" doesn't work as a design method. It's a cool powerset, don't get me wrong. Nifty effects. But it's just not enough personal survivability to make it viable for melee, whether from Assault powersets or otherwise.

 

For a character to be reasonably durable we're looking at 60% resistance to S/L at the very least. Or 28% Defense to S/L or some combination of the two. Otherwise they're just gonna get hammered down.

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16 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

So... what I see, here, is a melee character with a bunch of buff/debuff. But their defensive abilities include 2/3rd of a personal resistance power on SLE, the Defense and Resistance from one Stealth Power, some AoE/Ranged Defense from one power... and nothing else.

 

So we're looking at 20ish% resistance to SLE, a further 10-14% resistance to Cold, Fire, and Energy, 3-5% Defense to most stuff and around 12-15% Defense to AoE and Range.

 

This character would not survive getting aggro and would probably get murdered by AoE in Melee unless they also happened to have a Defender/Corruptor on the team explicitly buffing their survivability. 

 

This is why "Take a Support Set and add some Defense to it!" doesn't work as a design method. It's a cool powerset, don't get me wrong. Nifty effects. But it's just not enough personal survivability to make it viable for melee, whether from Assault powersets or otherwise.

 

For a character to be reasonably durable we're looking at 60% resistance to S/L at the very least. Or 28% Defense to S/L or some combination of the two. Otherwise they're just gonna get hammered down.

I mean that's why I posted this here, I never got any real feedback like this in order to make the proper alterations. SO if we trade out the T8, change Votex to a flat Def buff, remember to factor in Chilling Embrace and Vortexes embrace's damage bebuff's on nearby enemies. What else would need to change? Protector currently has an inherent that can and does function as an additional Defensive toggle with both Resist(all) and Def which we could rip from that design. But that effect waxes and wanes based on gameplay.

 

Edit: Second wind is just slightly more usefull than O2 boost, so it might also be prudent to swap that one out for a PBAoE Resist toggle? Keeping in mind we have all of Icy and Electric Armor to pick from and 1-2 Slots we can swap out, What would you suggest? (This is keeping in mind the fantasy of Storms has always been more it's debuffs and knockdowns.

Edited by Pbuckley818
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3 minutes ago, Pbuckley818 said:

I mean that's why I posted this here, I never got any real feedback like this in order to make the proper alterations. SO if we trade out the T8 change Votex to a flat Def buff, remember tio factor in Chilling and vortexes embrace's damage bebuff's on nearby enemies. What else would need to change? Protector currently has an inherent that can and does function as an additional Defensive toggle with both Resist(all) and Def which we could rip from that design. But that effect waxes and wanes based on gameplay.

 

Edit: Second wind is just slightly more usefull than O2 boost, so it might be prudent to swap that one out for a PBAoE Resist toggle? What would you suggest?

Any damage debuffs are going to be subject to both enemy rank and the purple patch, so their scaling will be wonky no matter what and thus they're not a great measure of survivability. An AV, for example, is always going to ignore almost all of any debuff you put on them, rendering that debuff-as-defense essentially useless.

 

No single toggle or click will fix the deficit that we've got on our hands with this set. It needs to be redesigned away from "Click Debuffs on enemies" of which this set has 4. Okay, arguably Thunderstorm is a pet but the principle is the same, it's not providing any defensive benefit directly to the character, so it's leaving the player vulnerable... Freezing Rain and the like, by the way? BIG Aggro Magnet powers. You're going to be drawing a ton of aggro that you just can't take.

 

For this kind of character we'd need to imagine every power, or -nearly- every power, as defense and support with values that are less than either a Scrapper or a Corruptor provides.

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8 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Any damage debuffs are going to be subject to both enemy rank and the purple patch, so their scaling will be wonky no matter what and thus they're not a great measure of survivability. An AV, for example, is always going to ignore almost all of any debuff you put on them, rendering that debuff-as-defense essentially useless.

 

No single toggle or click will fix the deficit that we've got on our hands with this set. It needs to be redesigned away from "Click Debuffs on enemies" of which this set has 4. Okay, arguably Thunderstorm is a pet but the principle is the same, it's not providing any defensive benefit directly to the character, so it's leaving the player vulnerable... Freezing Rain and the like, by the way? BIG Aggro Magnet powers. You're going to be drawing a ton of aggro that you just can't take.

 

For this kind of character we'd need to imagine every power, or -nearly- every power, as defense and support with values that are less than either a Scrapper or a Corruptor provides.

It is important to note that we are opening up 1-3 additional defensive powers without even touching Freezing rain (Which is a -Res and thus literally cannot be removed if we want to keep the powerset functional and desired) Thunderclap or Thunderstorm. if we made the support/Armor the primary things would end up even better, as it would be damage that takes a hit putting their DPS closer to a Tanker or Dominator depending on if it's melee or assault.

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