CompSciNerd
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Posts posted by CompSciNerd
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34 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:
Perceptual bias is alive and thriving.
That's how humanity works. Watch:
Your perception of my perceptual bias is biased and alive and thriving.
See? Everyone has one.
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14 minutes ago, Captain Fabulous said:
Imma just leave this here...
Yup. Well done Cap. I like your idea(s) and you guys have moved the ball forward. Awesome.
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5 minutes ago, Wavicle said:
Well that’s dumb, that’s not my suggestion.
a toggle on your bar, so you can switch ANYTIME
Yeah I agree. I have moved passed the idea this should be done at the trainer or some other npc. It should be able to be done on the fly, any time, with a minimally allowed cool down. It is better this way. If my last post didn't reflect that, it was meant to.
No npc involved unless people want to be able to buy the toggle at the p2w vendor. Where you get it I don't care. I would like it available from character creation in case someone wants to build a character theme around their powers.
I can update the original post when I get a chance.
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So here is the thing, right? What 14 different Arch types? Each with its own play style. Dozens of powers, primary and secondary. They each play differently. You combine 2 of them. Those play differently. And it's not just the min/max numbers for DSPs, holds or heals, people somewhere in their mind RP a bit after they make their toon how their character would act, even if it is a little.
Now take all of that... and if you’re not exclusively soloing... you have 8 people with different likes and attitudes on a team, all with a different idea on how to play: What an ideal team make up is, and how an ideal team behaves.
Honestly the time I have had the most fun in the game were with the strangest team make ups, and the oddest people. All of this is what makes COH awesome.
So sure, for people to kind of be on the same page and to have fun certain edict has risen up. This isn't crazy. This happens in all communities.
Now it may be the case you think you're God's gift to Scrappers... And that Controller? He is an idiot and doesn't know what he is doing... That controller? He thinks you’re the problem and he is the best. Has all the best techniques. Been around forever. What does he know?
Ok... Maybe you don't mesh well. Or maybe, both of you, are not as good as you think you are... Does it matter? This is a game, hopefully we are having fun. To that end…
I like the idea of a toggle KB->KD. And I think it would be fun. One of the things I like about Kelds is on a team, if one thing isn't working for you, you have a lot of options to pick from. Modes to switch into as scenarios change, as people come and go on the team. Because team dynamics change all the time. Same for Pistols. You can switch on the fly what you need. If you team already have a lot of DPS, you set to Rad and help debuff. Or switch to Fire if need more DPS. This sort of flexibility I like, even if I don't think the power set is that strong otherwise.
The same could be true for a KB->KD toggle. You can help the team out depending on how the play is going. If you are a pro KB person, toggle it on KB when there is good opportunity to knock someone against a wall, or some other technique, whatever. Toggle on KD on when the angle / scenario isn't that good, and you just want to play through. If you are a pro KD person, use the KD and toggle KB if you have an annoying Foe you want to knock off a bridge 🙂
If you are trying to use KB to knock foes into the Tank or some debuff / damage field and it is working, great.
If it isn't working this time for you or the team, sure maybe the Tank just isn't getting it... You have the option to switch it up.
Maybe you are learning or experimenting with new / better KB techniques or maybe you just aren't as good as you think you are. You can toggle and still help the team, and politely leave if it isn't you bag after the mish is over.
Maybe you prefer the KD but use the KB when you are in trouble or experiment when you see the opportunity.
Covers multiple techniques. Multiple scenarios. Flexibility. Fun. Sounds awesome to me.
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17 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:
This. If I'm leading and someone is using KB to the detriment of the party I will politely ask them to refrain from using those powers in that way. Sometimes people just don't understand the mechanics and explaining it to them is all that's needed. Sometimes people take great offense, cuss me out, and rage-quit. 🤷♂️
If I'm on someone else's team I'll finish the mission and then politely leave. This happened not that long ago; the team lead had Hurricane on the entire team and the Peacebringer kept knocking things all over the place with his AoEs (I was playing a Scrapper and it got old really quickly).That's the classy way to handle it Cap.
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3 hours ago, Luminara said:
Summation of the objections to a KB->KD toggle from other threads:
- The existence of such an option could result in mandated use by teammates/leaders, forcing players to either accept the dictates of others ("Play my way or GTFO"), or eschew teaming. If this option ceases to be optional, or leads to players being ostracized if they choose not to exercise that option, it would be detrimental to the game for many players, and give abusive players a strong foothold from which to begin building a larger community (in other words, the assholes might take over).
- Knock is control, as effective as Holds when used well. Powers with high KB, or sets with several powers which cause KB, are set to knock enemies back specifically so players can't use them as ghetto control right out of the box. If the player has to pursue the enemy after knocking it back, it's more balanced. KB->KD enhancements are allowed specifically because they require an investment, a slot which the player is dedicating to not Damage, or Endurance Reduction, or Recharge Reduction, or Accuracy, or some other attribute, thus maintaining a degree of balance across the entire build. Removing that investment cost for the control offered by Knock would require a subsequent review and rebalance of every power and set affected.
- There is no granularity with a toggle. If a player wants certain powers to KB and others to KD, a toggle denies him/her that option. Some players need at least one strong KB power to maintain distance from enemies. Others enjoy having at least one power with strong KB simply for the entertainment value. With a toggled KB->KD setting, it's all or nothing, which would leave these players with fewer options than they had without the toggle.
- There are already ways to mitigate KB. Being above an enemy when a KB power is used causes that enemy to be knocked downward, and that can be accomplished via Combat Jumping, Hover, Fly, Teleport, Mystic Flight, Combat Teleport, Speed of Sound's Jaunt, Mystic Flight's Translocation, jet packs, or even Hurdle, a power everyone is given for free. Powers with KB can also be slotted with KB->KD enhancements. Numerous single-target and AoE Immobilization powers prevent all Knock, as well as some single-target powers, such as Gravity Distortion and Cryo Freeze Ray. Walls are remarkably easy to find in the game, and prevent enemies from travelling any distance, regardless of the magnitude of the KB.
- Every set is designed with some kind of secondary effect to specialize it. Some have multiple secondary effects, others are more focused. KB doesn't exist simply to add flair or fulfill a thematic role in sets, it's also a form of damage mitigation, similar to Dark's -ToHit, and KB is more effective mitigation than KD. The longer an enemy is in the air or bouncing backwards along the ground, the longer the ragdoll effect lasts, the greater the damage mitigation provided by KB. Globally reducing KB in these sets would also globally reduce the amount of mitigation provided per power, as an enemy which is knocked down is able to return to standing animation more quickly, and sometimes ignores subsequent KD effects until it's on its feet again.
- Creating and implementing a KB->KD toggle for a scant few sets would require developer investment and time, and compared to projects with wider appeal and/or more benefit for a larger number of players,
- No-one, in the entire history of the game, has ever been forced to play a character with heavy KB. There are other sets, and with power customization, anyone can play a blasty pew pew character which looks like it's shooting pure energy but doesn't knock anything around. Nor has anyone ever had a gun held to his/her head and given no choice but to remain on a team with someone who uses KB poorly or maliciously. You don't have to play a KB heavy set, or team with KB users, if it bothers you that much.
- KB isn't that bad. People losing their shit because an enemy was knocked away from them and they were forced to press W for 0.5 second, or having to move forward a few feet on your own character, isn't the end of the world. All life as we know it will not stop instantaneously, nor will every molecule in your body explode at the speed of light, if the W key is touched.
For more detailed breakdowns and arguments, type "KB toggle" into the search box (top right of the page) and review the previous discussions.
1) Someone noted this is already good protocol. I have seen teams not let people on because of this. People leave teams over this or have gotten booted over not handling KB well enough. I am completely with you those teams are probably not worth being on anyway. But... I t would still be a good option to have.
So they have all MM teams playing now all the time. Make a KB only team tradition in the game. Have fun with it. I think it would be a Blast (get it??). I'd play on that.
But this is moot point anyway. If you and others are playing KB so crazy good, the strategies / techniques so well used, well liked and adopted why would people still have issues with this? This is a rhetorical question. (Ans: Their not...)
2) I'm not getting your logic here. I agree they are form of control. So is knock down. A lot of powers have control aspects. Like cold for example. If you like chasing down foes that's fine. But as some of your other points even suggest foe scattering is highly dependent on the circumstances of use. Are you open area, a cave, a building. And they don't always scatter they way you expect. You can use some of these things to you advantage, but it is not consistent for the player, much less the team. And honestly, I don't care. I would just like to see the option available to players to choose for themselves.
Using an enhancement to mod the effect... You can. And a global option (toggle, etc.) would not change this... It really can't get my brain around why someone would want to "pay" for something that should already be theirs. I am amazed how many are interested in paying for a power design short coming.
BTW, you realize this ties you to one enhancement set if you want to get all the bonuses right? Aren't you even a bit put off that you must slot your power one and only one way? I mean it is already inefficient, much more so if really wanted to use a completely different set. You can, but never the way you want if you weren't tied to this enhancement. This is easy enough to fix.
3) Yes that is the point. This is a good thing. If you want the granularity use the slot method. If you don't use the global method. This is the whole point.
4) You are kidding right? Flying above a mob in a cave, or a hallway so you effectively create your own ad-hoc knock down? And walls, etc. are just fine if you can take the time to angle yourself just right, during team chaos. And it works. And you are not using a scatter foe power in your attack combination which would nullify the whole thing. I'm just going to assume this was just not thought through. You are exactly making my point for me.
5) I don't want to globally reduce KB. I want to globally be able to switch KB to KD. KB is a good mitigation technique. So is KD. As a foe gets up, you get a couple free swings at them. Often if is enough to get rid of one of your lowbie foes. You can't do that with KD ether because your chasing them, or waiting. They both have advantages and disadvantages. So why not have access to both? If you really think KD doesn't give you enough time, and I think it is fine by the next attack knocks them back down, but we could talk about the idea of adding time to them being on the floor... Now they are very close to the same effect.
6) Dev time? I haven't looked at code, but it can't be that bad. They already have the mechanic supported. A bunch of code must already support this. I don't think this is really that bad. They have good group here. There are moving in to making new sets already, tweaking others. It just has to on their list.
7) I agree with nearly everything you said here. I just think it would be more fun. Better.
8 ) I'm not saying KB is bad. I'm saying a global KD would be a (very) good option. Desirable. If it could be done on the fly as we had suggested at one point, I think that would be really cool.
9) I read a couple of the discussions, I had my own opinion and I thought I'd share it. I think the people here have already given some really good ideas on how this could be made better. We don't have to be angry about this. It is a good discussion.
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18 minutes ago, Rudra said:
I wholeheartedly disagree. The problem is a perceptual one or a play style one. I've been on full teams with KB heavy characters before, specifically Energy Blast, and there were no complaints because of how the Energy Blast player leveraged his/her character's abilities to work with the team. (Edit: Or because the Energy Blast player killed the KB'ed target(s) before the melees had to chase it down.) I've been on small teams where the moment someone realizes a character is a KB character, particularly Energy Blast, they very vocally and adamantly demand the KB player use KB2KD procs or leave the team. And if the vocal individual is the leader? Too often the KB player isn't even given the choice, let alone the opportunity to demonstrate how KB can be used, and is just booted. That is not an implementation problem. Nor is it a "KB is bad" problem.
KB is one of those game mechanics that can be tricky to fully master. It is also one where vocal players won't even grant opportunities to see it can actually benefit the team. Yes, poor use of KB is detrimental to teams, but so is poor use of other game mechanics like immobilization. You think players can't "accidentally" immobilize targets outside of the other players' effect radii? Keeping the already scattered mobs scattered without stopping them from attacking? Which still forces those players that complain about KB to have to chase down the scattered mobs. Or how about spamming fear effects to make the mobs the Tanker is managing just up and scatter out of his/her/its reach? If trolls want to troll a team and make it look like "an honest mistake", they don't need KB to do so. However, players are typically willing to cut those other players slack "because they are obviously a noob and just need to learn how to use their abilities right". If a player doesn't know how to leverage a set's benefits, they can play poorly regardless of what secondary effects, or even primary effects in some cases, their character uses.
The OP you proposed is not a fix. It is a cheat trying to get an enhancement's benefit without having to get and use the enhancement so you can devote that enhancement slot to something you deem 'better', or it is a cop out to the demands of players that won't even consider the benefits of KB, or worse, both. The first possibility is the desire to play ever more powerful characters in a game that already can't deal with all the power creep it has requiring the devs to come up with a whole new set of difficulties to try to compensate. The second possibility is just surrendering to others' demands that you play the way they want rather than the way you want. The third possibility is a surrender that seeks to eke out even more power as compensation.
Edit: And no, I am not against having more options in the game. What I am against in this thread is trying to get a benefit without having to use what grants that benefit. No free procs. If you want the effect of an enhancement, then slot the enhancement. And for those getting ready to argue that set bonuses grant you enhancement bonuses without having to slot an enhancement for it? You're wrong. You have to slot 2-6 enhancements from a pre-defined set to get those benefits.
Well I respect the fact you disagree.
I am also glad we agree on more options being available to the player.
I am just not thinking of this the same way. I think this was a power set design problem that they would have had no way of knowing about at the time they issued it. Not their fault. Now we can plus up and add to the power sets out there, if they choose. I'm saying its fine that we have the enhancements. There are better ways to handle it now.
I recognize this work for your play style. That is awesome. I don't think it is fair to characterize it as a perceived problem if people are actually having issues or would like it differently. The solution is not to teach people to play like you want. You may very well have good pointers to show people. If you have time to do it politely, in game, when chaos is going on all around. And I'm sure there is a peer pressure component as well. But this way the player can still choose how to play their toon.
I am framing this as if you are a dev and you design a blaster power set that does X damage and has some secondary side effect. The secondary works well for some players and for others they would like a tweak. This is not a cheat. It is a design decision. You could make a whole new power sets with a whole new secondary for every set out there that behaves this way or..., non-destructively add functionality to the power sets everyone is using now. Everyone wins. I'm just suggesting a global option.
Calling it a secondary effect is really misleading. That effect does a lot of things for the player. Very often defines your character in terms of RP. In terms of play style. So if you want a certain theme you should have access to it from the start. Make the effect part of the powerset somehow in terms how you are playing you character. All it usually profound enough that it impacts the theme of your toon and the backstory of your character. A toggle you get at the p2w is fine.
You realize that they started introducing powersets that behaved exactly the way the people here are describing? The pistols set. Option 1: Shoot them plain. Options 2, 3, 4: toggle between three other side effects... The mechanic is already established and is not considered a cheat. If someone wanted to update the pistols and add a 5th... Maybe electric... I would be like Cool... And I wouldn't think it broke anything. It is a power set design issue.
One person here suggested knock ups. I think that is Hi-larious. Maybe another global option. I'm easy.
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34 minutes ago, Rudra said:
The pushback is the OP wants the benefit of an enhancement without having to slot it. So if the request is for an enhancement's benefit without having to slot it, then the price should be an enhancement. Ergo, -42.4% damage penalty. The effects of a single level 50 IO damage enhancement. The flexibility to use or not use knockback is already available in the multiple builds every character gets and the availability of knockback to knockdown enhancements. Make one build with the knockback to knockdown enhancements and another build without them. Voila. Now you have the flexibility to use or not use knockback as you see fit.
With respect, that not true at all. Not in the least.
I am glad they added an enhancement that gives people options for their build... I would say that about any enhancement, or any set. There wasn't always an enhancement for this. Not for a long time. And the fact that they tackled this issue at all tells us two things:
1) There is an issue, at least for some people. People asked for something (that how it works). And they got this as a solution.
2) The problem still exists or people would have stopped talking about it. So there is an implementation problem.
IMHO: The solution for these powers should never have been adding in an enhancement to address this issue at all. That was a band-aid fix. And as you can see, there nothing so permanent as a band-aid fix. There should have some sort of global solution to the problem from the start. I'm glad it's there. It is one way to do it. It gives more options... But it should not have been the first goto for adding this functionality.
I want to be clear here to. I don't want to misunderstand the term "fix" ether because KB isn't broken. Those powers are performing exactly as advertised and the people that like it that way, more power to you. And I count myself among them on occasion. When I use the term "fix" I mean in terms of how it was implemented. We are several more years down the road now, with experience. Keep the system we have, but improve it. I think it can be done better. This is how we move ahead.
And I haven't looked at the code, I know it's available, but I don't see this as a major code change ether. Not earth shaking.
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2 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:
Honestly I'd like to see such a power available to everyone from the P2W vendor. A zero-endurance toggle that reduces all KB to KD. This way one can choose this if you want it to cover all your powers (and have the ability to turn it on or off at will) or opt for IOs if you just want to convert specific powers.Yes. I like it.
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2 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:
How about no? More options = better. Having to burn an enhancement slot isn't always ideal. Having a zero-cost passive or toggle power isn't always ideal either. But the more options we have the better. I really do not understand the pushback here.
If I suggested that all KB in the game be reduced to MAG 0.67 so that it's KD, with the excuse that you could then slot KB enhancers to turn it in KB if you wanted to, with a massive -tohit and/or -dmg penalty, you'd lose your GD mind. So why is the reverse OK?
Sometimes KB is a good thing and sometimes it's not. Giving us the flexibility to control it better is a plus, not a minus, especially since no one will ever force you to use said options if you choose not to.Exactly this.
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8 minutes ago, Wavicle said:
Actually I was imagining a passive. Always on, no end cost. But I specifically imagine it as an Incarnate power, so it’s not available until 50 (45 when Exing) and it locks out whatever else could have gone in that Incarnate slot.
Hmmm... I like the passive, no endurance idea. But when I'm building my toons I like to know what they are going to do up front. That way I can think about how I'm going to build him, get used to any nuances as I play, etc. A lot of the times the theme off my character depends on this stuff too. I would want to have this available from the get go.
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1 hour ago, Wavicle said:
The only way I will support this kind of thing (which normally would be better at Null the Gull than anywhere else) is if it is added as a Power of some kind (Normal or Incarnate), so that it comes with an opportunity cost.
So your thinking an extra toggle power you could put in your tray that modifies other powers? Sort of like "walk" modifies your toons natural stride changing it on the fly? I could get behind that idea too.
Not bad.
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20 minutes ago, Rudra said:
Not this again....
No. If you want to turn knockback into knockdown, slot the enhancements that do so. It's that simple. Solution already exists in the game.
Edit: And you can still use both builds to do what you are saying. One build has the KB-KD enhancements slotted while the other build does not. Now you are free to use KB when you want and KD when you don't. Problem already solved.
Edit again: And as someone who has played the game almost from launch, not HC but original launch, I wholeheartedly disagree with your "But anyone who has played this game for more than a few levels knows knock back on some powers can at a minimum be more annoying than the power set itself is worth. " statement.
TBH, I haven't spent a lot to time in the forums. If this is a topic that is being brought up again, clearly people are not happy with the current solution. So it is not solved to the satisfaction of the players.
This supports my point. There is a better way to handle this.
You can have multiple builds. But, why would want to waste enhancement slots on something that there is wide support that should behave differently? The Energy Blast set alone means you are going to burn 8 slots. What could you do with 8 extra slots...? That is a band-aid solution. A global switch on the toon's build makes more sense. Nothing changes for people that like the enhancement option if that is what you want. I'm not suggesting we take away functionality. I'm saying they add in options.
More options, more play styles supported. Win, win.
You are not the only one. I have been around for a while too. Every team I have been on the tank complains about the knock back. For years. And not just the tank, 'trollers too. Some of those powerset have a lot more potential this way and are waisted sets now because people just aren't going to deal with it. I'm sorry you disagree with that, but experience says otherwise.
If the topic keeps coming back up, there is a reason for it.
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I was thinking about this the other day.
First, I'm not of the opinion that knock back is never fun. Sometimes when I'm soloing it can be a fun part of the strategy. And there is something about watching the bad guys getting sent through the air...
But anyone who has played this game for more than a few levels knows knock back on some powers can at a minimum be more annoying than the power set itself is worth. Many people simply do not use some power sets at all because of this or if they do they have to waste an enhancement slot for a knock back to knock down converter that could be used for anything else.
I think there is a simpler solution. One that doesn't get rid of knock back for those times when you want to play that way. But changes it when you would rather have knock down. Like a team build.
We all have access to two character builds for every toon at the trainer called "Select your active build" (if you were not aware of that). Instead of using enhancements to fix this, I would like to see a toggle, or a check box on the top or bottom of our build screen for enhancements that simply says "[*] Convert knock backs to knock downs" and it does this globally on all powers for that particular build.
This way you can have one build for knockback (if you like it that way), one build with knock down (which I think will become the popular choice), and if you want to pick and choose your powers for a more fine grain build option, you can still go the enhancement route.
A global check box on a particular build will free slots, give people more options, allow to changes builds at the trainer any time you want, and very like add a fresh breath of air to set that are not as popular.
I think this is a better option that people will like more.
Note: I want to add the idea proposed in the discussion that I am warming into:
The KB / KD global toggle.
Low or no cool down.
Can switched on the fly during play, combat, at anytime.
This allows the player flexibility in varying strategies during combat.
Available for any power set containing KB or KD.
Possibly acquired at the p2w vendor or similar (This part I'm less concerned with). It should be available at level 1 so if people want build character themes around it they can, as well as get experience playing with switching strategies.
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Knock back option suggestion
in Suggestions & Feedback
Posted
Hey Zeraphia. Thats not true 🙂
I agree with the first bullet entirely. In fact, I was thinking why not go further? For those that are big fans of KB, I see no reason for power sets that are KD to be able to toggle them to KB. If that really is their play style, and they are as good at it as they say, have at it! But you still have the option of switching back and forth for different strategies in combat. Something for everyone. Likely new combat strategies will develop too. More fun! Maybe instead of thinking about this as a KB->KD toggle, think of it as a KB / KD toggle. And yeah the default can be KB.
More IO sets? Set's for everyone! Who wouldn't be in favor of that? As long as it is "in addition to." I'm really warming in to the combat toggle idea. I think that would be a blast to play with.
I like your ideas. No idea is ever going to get all around consensus. That rarely happens any forum. The best you can hope for is "buy in." But, from reading the other posts here I know I'm not the only one who liked them. People that are the most emotionally invested are going to be the most vocal. That is just human nature. But that is not what determines consensus or buy in. I realize on any topic people feel invested in there is going to be push back. I was hoping brainstorming new ideas would inspire. Maybe investment would take place and hopefully some buy in. Enough to inspire some and satisfy others...
And for the record, I liked some of the other thoughts too. It wasn't really my focus so I didn't comment, but if someone wanted to improve the KB, I have no issue with that. Someone proposed the idea of more KB should cause more impact damage. Makes sense to me. If you are going to slot your power that way, have the benefit.
Maybe there is a corresponding KD with minor stun enhancement. Just throwing out ideas there.
I like the ideas. I'd like to see some of them happen.