bhiestand

Mea culpa. I read that as 2 damage procs: -resist, and +recharge. Yeah, I do consider 4 damage-oriented procs a proc'd out power. Thanks for going to numbers. When surrounded by max enemies, the lowest rage I've seen was at 89%. I do not claim that this is definitive, but I think it's fair to assume that the balance for farming scenarios should be at 80 to 90. It's interesting that with the current (on beta) balance, Tankers will greatly underperform Brutes when in a perfect (for them) situation; this seems to run against the stated intent. This is of course looking only at direct power-based damage. I reiterate that this discussion shows that the damage reductions are being made to bring down the highest possible damage in specialized situations without apparent regard for what that does for the rest of the game: the chaos of teams, the time spent leveling or soloing through missions to complete them instead of to maximize farming potential. In my opinion, overcap damage could do almost nothing other than keep attention for tanks, but then damage at say 50% and 100% of normal cap should be competitive with a brute at whatever fraction or multiplier the devs want. I maybe was not clear about "enough" enemies. I am routinely surrounded by enough, as I pull as many as I can survive without leaving stragglers (if doing a defeat-all). I sincerely doubt they're all in my AOEs, except on the meteor map using specific enemies, and definitely not for most cones (probably throw spines is good, Jacob's Ladder is bad). But, I don't know that yet, I'll see if it's easily parsed.

It looks very much like 4 procs from the screenshot, which is the only info I have. It's disingenuous to say "here's an over performing build that doesn't make strong use of procs" in that situation. You keep saying +60%, but that's of a much lower number, and only applies sometimes during the fight. I guess I need to parse the logs to see how often, but in a mobile fighting style you are rarely going to have a full hit from AOE . I absolutely understand that more targets magnifies the effect of procs, especially with an artificially high rate. Right now I'm trying to reconcile that, OUTSIDE of procs: * Tankers are stated to be intended to be AOE specialists; but * They do less damage in most scenarios (possibly all) * Are losing damage in all scenarios I get this this is kind of a "me" problem, though I know I'm not alone; I try to build Tankers to be as ridiculously tough as I can. This means I explicitly don't veer towards procs and I don't like be balanced around them when they distort the numbers so much.

Understood. My intent was to highlight that the changes of reducing procs for Tankers maybe itself sufficient, especially if (for instance) the chance to proc on overcap targets was removed entirely.

Thank you. Apologies if this comes off as argumentative, but that looks like the definition of proc bomb in your primary AoE. That definitely suggests to me that they remain the bigger issue in balancing.

I'm definitely missing something, then, if you can do +4 without procs or incarnates at that speed. Do you mind sharing your build? There are only two areas on that mission where I get enough mobs to have more than 10 in a close AOE reliably, the first floor and the last. The second sometimes.

Yes, all testing has been x8. The difficulty is something I'm playing with to keep the timing short enough to stay interested, and to make it survivable by scrappers.

Which maps, and which builds? I'm genuinely curious, because on the "standard" test maps, I simply can't get enough targets for the theory to match reality. My concern is that my non-farming characters are losing damage due to edge cases which, so far from this thread, are theoretical.

Which tanker builds are outperforming Brutes built the same, that aren't proc'ing out? A point of uncertainty, at least to me: are Tankers as "AOE specialists" supposed to meet or exceed the AOE DPS of Brutes or scrappers? Only at Max possible density? Playing solo? Or is "AOE specialists" just intended to be about aggro, as several state, and Tankers should always be behind in damage. As an aside, it would be nice if the edge of survivability of Brutes (slim to none) was close to the difference in damage. That seems nearly impossible across varying sets, though.

It's worth noting that at least some of the data being shown here is tankers at their absolute BEST under the current rules. This means durable enemies that aren't instantly killed (lots of +4 testing going on) with as-much-as-possible overcap mechanic saturation. This means the lower damage they're doing is going to magnified to a very great extent in more typical gameplay. I assume that current perceptions of "too high AOE" from tankers is due essentially entirely to procs. If so, then returning the "real" radius of aoes to pre-buff *but keeping the higher damage* (that is, not following the formula) may achieve closer to the goals as I understand them, by reducing procs. I *really* wish we could address procs if they're the issue. On a separate note, I'd like to test complete overcap saturation, which is better done in (for instance) the street tunnel map. Is there an agreed-upon good testing enemy for this purpose? To my earlier point, this would be best-case for Tankers, and closer to standard farming (I guess, I am don't have any characters built to farm).

+4x8, Office simulation, RC1 on Brainstorm. Base character was elec/elec tanker from live, without being rebuilt to take advantage of changes. General build for tanking stuff, not farming. NOT a proc bomb build. Scrapper and Brute were the exact same power and slots, just replacing AT IOs with the appropriate ones. Well, scrapper lost two perfect zinger from Power Sink due to not being slottable, but I don't expect that it mattered. Tanker: 11:11 Brute: 8:41 Scrapper: 11:16 The increased scrapper times were somewhat inflated because I chased mobs I should've waited on; I'm not used to soloing lots of mobs on scrappers. In all fairness, I don't think elec/elec tank was too affected by these changes due to the weird nature of electric melee (fake chain, fake single with splash). I will probably try the same with a few others as time permits.

Resists on Power Surge were lowered, and regen added. That would seem to address the concerns about "too much of a good thing" not actually being useful.

Harvey Maylor mission "Seek clues on psychic plane": "... I need you to learn whatever you can about and the Carnival of Shadows"