[Kin/SR or MA/SR]

The other day, I fired up m lvl 40 Kin/Regen and took on a +2 Devouring Earth EB...Terra.  I was able to defeat her with no inspirations, no power pool powers, no IO set bonuses except for Overwhelming Fear in Repulsing Torrent.   Actually it was a simultaneous KO....first time I've ever had that happen on an EB.   

 

The set seems pretty decent on damage.   But I wouldn't play it with /SR.

[Lets talk Regeneration Set]

8 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

It was 7.5^% for scrappers before GDN and you could six slot it for 16.5% defense.

Thanks for the post, but I think my main point is that at Launch and not for several issues CoH did not make these numbers available, so nobody was doing the math and figuring out how great Weave would be on top of /SR.   More to the point, there was no suggestion or push from the developers or in-game information that the FIghting Pool was intended as a scrapper staple as people would eventually flock to it.

 

13 hours ago, TheHunterJLJ said:

We actually had several comments from the developers indicating that at least by that point, they DID expect scrappers (and tankers) to take both tough and weave IF they wanted to build layered mitigation.

That doesn't actually mean that intended for all, or even a majority, of scrappers and tankers to take it when it was created.   It's also not accurate as sets like /Invulnerability and / Dark Amor already had multi-layered mitigation, even /Regen had some +RES.  Only /SR, at Launch, was pure +DEF.   In fact, in teams, I think /Invul was getting more mitigation from +DEF than +RES.  And ultimately that statement would be true for anyone who took Tough and Weave, not just scrappers and tanks.

 

Again, my point is that the Fighting Pool was not created as an intended path for Scrappers or Tankers or intended that it be more important to those sets than any other sets.  Sure, they expected some to take it, certainly /Regen which had the +Recovery to support a couple of additional toggles.  But sets like /SR and /DA were starved for endurance and  not until the Fitness Pool became inherent did it become viable. 

 

The ultimate points it the game was not/is not balanced around scrappers having to take the Fighting Pool.  I don't use it on any of my scrappers and my /SR, built without Mids can comfortably do 4x8.  And my /Willpower, also built without Mids can do some 4x8 (because I have no idea how to build a /WP scrapper).

 

 

 

 

[Lets talk Regeneration Set]

18 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Considering how old the Fighting pool is, that's a hell of a statement.

Not really.  There are a lot of things that seem obvious in hindsight but apparently were not considered during development.  Things like six slotting attacks with Damage, everyone taking Health and Stamina, and people learning the value of stacking +DEF on top of more +DEF.  

 

It may have been something I read at some point back during Live, but I got the sense the Fighting Pool was for Defender/Controllers/Blasters to add some survivability and melee attacks.   In addition, there are a number of reasons scrappers weren't taking the FP as they are now:

 

1.   It's not hard to imagine the devs not expecting an /SR to invest a bunch of extra feats to get a 3.75% +DEF boost that is a toggle.  

2.  Remember, you had to buy Health and Stamina as well, so there were fewer open choices if you wanted all your primary/secondary.

3. There were no Set bonuses to push /SR to the cap and really utilize that last bit of +DEF.

4. As I recall, nobody knew the numbers at launch.   Crytpic didn't add numbers to the Combat Logs until after several issues.  So there was no one doing the math to clearly identify the benefits.

4. I'll also point out that benefits of the Fighting Pool were communicated on the forums....not so much in game.   

5. There was no difficulty slider at launch. That is another reason why scrappers weren't looking into the Fighting Pool.  No one was trying to make a build that could survive 4x8 because you couldn't do that solo.

 

So no, I don't think the devs added the Fighting Pool expecting it to become a thing for scrappers as it became.  

[Kin/SR or MA/SR]

16 hours ago, liveevil2000 said:

I'm leaning more Kinetics, but Martial Arts just grabs me too.

During my /Regen testing, I leveled up a Kin/Regen.   Kin took some getting used to, but I found it was decent damage and added a ton of survivability for /Regen on account of all the knockdown (plus I slotted the ranged cone attack with Overwhelming Fear).   In truth, I don't think all the Knockdown is all that helpful for /SR.   /SR wants to end a fight as quickly as possible.  /Regen wants to string it out.  If you can get past the animation and the sounds effects, Kin is an interesting set to play.   However, I think MA looks way cooler.

[Lets talk Regeneration Set]

On 9/26/2023 at 6:17 AM, Riot Siren said:

I hate to say this, but the fact you see that as a "flex" for the set is downright adorable

Except I'm not trying to "flex", so your comment says more about you than me.   I have no love for /Regen.  I had a Claws/Regen on live and I never got it past 30.  I didn't have any /Regens on HC until someones (some of which are in this thread) started spouting off about how /Regen sucks worse than /SR.   So I went and actually....you know....tested them.   I had no a priori expectations for /Regen.   Contrast that with many people here who are griping about /Regen back on Live before the nerfs.  Of course, if that's your standard, then every scrapper secondary sucks, not just /Regen.

 

What I am trying to do is counter the misinformation about /Regen that comes up in every one of these discussions, namely that /Regen sucks because people can't solo 4x8 with the same investment that they put into /SR or /Shield or /Invul. 

On 9/26/2023 at 6:17 AM, Riot Siren said:

To add to that, saying that tough and weave were never "intended" for scrappers to use is baffling

Except I never said that in this thread.  So now you're putting words in my mouth because you have an agenda and you're trying to spin it.  But I am skeptical the devs designed the Fighting Pool expecting Scrappers to take it.  I could be wrong.  Either way, it's irrelevant.

 

On 9/26/2023 at 6:17 AM, Riot Siren said:

As someone who does not consider my character complete till they can comfortably solo most groups at 4x8

Exactly.  For those of you following the thread...this is where the /Regen sucks people all camp out at.  Let me clue you into something.  The game isn't ever going to be balanced around anyone being able to solo 4x8.   Nor should it.   The developers are never going to modify a set because a BUILD (not a secondary) can solo 4x8 for 300m and another one takes 500m....and they both require Mids to figure it out.

 

On 9/26/2023 at 6:17 AM, Riot Siren said:

saying 95% is from outside their secondary is absolutely ridiculous, or else secondary choice would barely matter.

It sounds ridiculous when you're wholly ignorant of how the math works in this game.  Secondaries, largely don't matter.   Builds matter.  There are any number of Defender, Controller, Tanker, Mastermind, Blaster builds that can solo 4x8.  Some do it faster than others, but many can do it.   /Regen can do it, it just takes a lot of more effort and money than most.  Far beyond what the average player is going to invest.   And that's true for all the 4x8 builds...unless you're using someone else's build and your farming to get your csh.  Neither of these things are what the game is ever going to be balanced around.

 

On 9/26/2023 at 6:17 AM, Riot Siren said:

If that was even remotely the case wouldn't that make regen better then the rest, as it's "more powerful" without outside mitigation.

Again, this statement is born from  ignorance on how the game is designed.   +DEF is the THE most effective method of mitigation until you start getting into 4* TFs and running 802 missions.    But this is only true because there is so much off-set +DEF you can grab.  Without power pools and Set IOs offering +DEF, nobody would be talking about how great /SR and shield are.

 

+RES works great as well....but you'll kindly note there are NO pure +RES sets.  Any +RES set also tacks on other forms of mitigation in the form of +Heal +Hit Points +DEF +Regen, etc.   +DEF is so effective that for years, /SR only had +DEF.   It wasn't until many of us complained about /SR having no other form of mitigation that they added the scalling +RES...which you can't boost and is largely useless against +4 AVs/EBs...and still doesn't work against Psi or Toxic.

 

I will say that in teams with lots mitigation, like Bubbles or Ice Armor, etc.  /Regen is dominant because no other set can get comparable amounts of +Heal  +Regen.  So in a team seting, /Regen has a much higher ceiling than /SR or /Ninjitsu.  But now, with Set IO's and Incarnates, you don't need support unless you're running 4* TFs.

 

On 9/26/2023 at 6:17 AM, Riot Siren said:

Regen being considered bad isn't a new thing, it's been considered that ways since IH got nerfed effectively, long before IOs and incarnates.

That's right.  IH as a toggle was essentially "God Mod."  I was there, I saw it in action.   So of course people are going to complain about that being taken away and bemoan the fact that it's never coming back.  That doesn't mean the complaints are valid in the context of what CoH is about.  What's ridiculous is people are refusing to accept how problematic that was for the game.

 

On 9/26/2023 at 6:17 AM, Riot Siren said:

To say "a small vocal minority of players" are calling it bad is just incorrect,

It's not.  The amount of people who complained and are still complaining about /Regen sucking are probably 1% of the total player population.   But they  come out in force whenever someone asks about /Regen.

 

/Regen doesn't even remotely suck for doing what scrappers are designed to do.  But it does require a specific playstyle that not everyone either enjoys or is good at.   There are a lot of AT's and sets I don't like and am not effective with.  For me, I feel they suck.  But that is a subjective opinion, not an empirical one.  

 

/Regen isn't ideal for soloing 4x8.  But the set is never going to be balanced around doing that content.  

 

 

 

 

[Lets talk Regeneration Set]

43 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Add on top of this no Defense and not much of a Resist to speak of and that becomes a failure within a failed set, IMO.

Sounds like /Regen is not the set for you.

[Lets talk Regeneration Set]

4 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Regen not having debuff protection is a failing of Regen. Tough and Weave aren't saving it from that.

/Regen not thaving debuff protection isn't a "failing" of /Regen.  It's an intended consequence of the design.   A developers wants each set to have specific weaknesses that make other sets look attractive.    /Regen has minimal debuff resistance, but it treats all damage types the same.   /SR is totally ravaged by Psi/Toxic, but it avoids lots of debuffs that have to hit.  /SR also doesn't have any endurance management and is very susceptible to big hits from +1/2/3/4 AVs who plow past the passive +RES.

 

Every set has to have an Achilles' heal. 

[Lets talk Regeneration Set]

3 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

100 - (50 + 40) = 90% total mitigation.

100 - (50 + 45) = 95% total mitigation.

So yeah, that  equation is conflating concepts...which leads to confusion

 

100-90=10% Incoming  damage

100-95=5%  Incoming damage.   

 

So you can see that if you get the terminology wrong, it interferes with conceptualization.   There's been years of people looking at how to quantify the different sets.  A popular one is called "effective health."  I use the "I win" equation. In my  method you eventually have to divide your health by the incoming damage per second to determine how long you'll survive.   So as the damage goes to zero, your survival time goes to infinity.  "I win" if the time it takes the mobs to defeat me is longer than the time it takes me to defeat them.

 

Let's look at a simple example:

 

If my health is 100 hps, and the raw DPS is 10 health/sec.  90% defense means I'm taking 1 point per second and I live 100 seconds....on average.   So if I add Weave and now have 95% mitigation, then I'm losing .5 /second and I live 200 seconds....on average.  So you can see that adding  +5% DEF doubles my TOTAL survival time if I'm already at 90%

 

Now let's look at that on a set with no +DEF powers.

100 health.   Losing 10/second.  Base 50% +DEF means I'm lasting 20 seconds...on average. 

Add 5% Weave....I'm getting 55% DEF which means I'm taking 4.5/second.  I live 22 seconds....on average.  

 

So now you see adding that 5% +DEF to someone near the DEF cap adds as much survival time as  all the +DEF before that.

 

The math is simple, but conceptually it can be a little slippery if you conflate terms.

 

 

[Lets talk Regeneration Set]

1 hour ago, Without_Pause said:

It doubles your remaining survival rate. It does not double your total survival rate.

No, it doubles your total survival time.  That's what happens when you cut the total incoming damage in half: you survive twice as long.  When /SR, at 2% incoming below the cap...can ad another 1% +DEF from a Set IO bonus....you're dramatically increasing its survival time where that same 1% bonus for /Regen is unnoticeable.   Go get a spread sheet and set up the calcs.  I've done it.  It's very illuminating and educational on how OP stacking +DEF is.  +RES is almost as good, except the cap for scrappers is a lot lower.

 

I've also seen this in action.  About a year ago, recruited people to try out some specific encounters.   I recall a Katana/SR that survived one such encounter.  I had her turn off Tough....no change in outcome.  Then I had her put Tough back on and turn off Weave.   She died in like 15 seconds. 

[Lets talk Regeneration Set]

24 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

If I go from 1% to 2%, then I am doubling my survival rate. That's how Math actually works. If I'm going from 44% to 45%, then I am adding 2% more mitigation because again, that's literally how Math works.

That's not how the mitigation calculations work.   IIRC, your actual +DEF calc is 100 - (50%+ (your +DEF)).   The number is capped at 95% so that's why getting 45% +DEF is the "soft cap."   So think of it like this.  If you have 40% +DEF.  10% of the damage is getting through.  When you add 5% more +DEF, you've reduced the incoming damage to by half.  This doubles your survival time.   

 

In other words, stacking +DEF is what matters.  Adding the same 5% of +DEF to a set at 0% +DEF and a set that has 40% +DEF has dramatically different impact on survivability, despite its the same flat 5%.

 

24 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

People's point is simply that if you dump everything you can into Regen, then it still will end up lacking compared to other sets which you seem to be ignoring as much as possible.

I'm not ignoring that at all.  But the statement is fundamentally flawed.  "Dumping" stuff into /Regen is not a reflection of /Regen, it's a reflection of the unbalanced benefits of stacking +DEF/+RES.   It's also a statement that essentially requires that you're at level 50 and have infinite funds to dump into.   The game was NOT designed at level 50.  It was designed from level 1-50.   The sets weren't designed to solo 4x8.  They were designed to do +0x1....and probably expecting it to go to +2x1 by level 50.   /Regen crushes those requirements.   /Regen is better than "fine" leveling.  It's excellent.  

 

What /Regen cannot do is consistently solo 4x8 for the same effort investment that a +DEF/+RES set can.  That is not a failing of /Regen, it's failing of the developers for putting so much  +DEF and +RES in the pools.   That doesn't mean /Regen isn't balanced or that its trash.  The standard for scrappers is not, "can you solo 4x8".

 

I've run ITF at 50 with my non-Set IO, non-Power pools, non Incarnate Savage/Regen scrapper and he had no trouble surviving on a team.  I didn't have a single death during ITF.   But then I'm not trying to run-off and solo spawns....which I can do on my /SR.

 

 

[Lets talk Regeneration Set]

18 hours ago, Solarverse said:

 

Wrong. I challenge you to ask random people in game, not your buddies if they think Regen sucks or not. I think you will find it is quite the opposite.

lol.  So let me get this straight.  You want me to ask random people what they think of /Regen and replace my experience with my own in-game A/B testing of it against other sets with their opinions?  Sure.  I'll get right on that.   And FYI, when I do see people playing /Regen, I do ask them what they think and they think its fine.   But then they are already playing the set in into the 30s, so obviously they don't think its trash.

 

17 hours ago, Solarverse said:

So running missions at +0 or +1? What is Nominal to you?

I've run all the secondaries I listed above to the breaking point.  /Regen can easily handle +3x1 by mid 30's.   I could do +4's at 40+ if I took Focused Accuracy, but these runs are entirely devoid of Power Pool mitigation, Set IO bonuses (except everyone gets at least 5 Overwhelming Fear), and Incarnates.  Though I did use Hasten if I used DP or IH between fights to shorten down time.  This is why I put /Nin above /Regen.  /Rad can handle +3s as well.  

 

/SR is horrible for down time.  I have to take a knee after every fight or every other fight.  Even using blues and greens after the fight to recover, it is the worst leveling speed by a country mile.  The only thing /SR is really good at is running away and surviving.  The passive resistances are the best at giving you time to flee, provided you're not fighting toxic or psi.   /SR also gets way better now that they made Elude available earlier.  This allows the set to take on some of the EBs at +2 with non-set IOs and no Insp.

 

12 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

No one is saying that Regen is some godlike set that stands above all others. 

Leveling up, it's way better than the +DEF sets except for /Nin.  By the 40's, the vulnerability to debuffing, because I'm running vs +3/4s, and the increased damage output of bosses brings it back down to earth.   In order to defeat Nosferatu in the 30s, I had to put it back to +0 and use a bunch of purples.  His -To HIt, floored my accuracy and made him almost unkillable for my /Regen.  I also failed to fight him with Riptide still alive.

 

12 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

As I said earlier in the thread, it's not that, and frankly even going back to Issue 1 it wasn't that.

Before /Regen's first nerf, the stories are true.  Once you got Instant Healing at like 28, which was a toggle, /Regen was essentially unkillable after the alpha.   As people posted, you get IH and then you respec.   Before that point, /Regen was really bad if not terrible.   I specifically remember the developers trying to justify it by saying some sets are good early and bad late and some are the opposite.   But Issue 1 /Regen was broken and they knew it...which is why they fixed it.

 

12 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

It plays so much differently than other sets that I think most players would just prefer to take a set that allows you to softcap defense and steamroll.

This.  /Regen requires active management.  A lot of players think its suppose to survive on just +Regen and it doesn't.  The correct timing of using Recon and DP are crucial to winning with the set.

 

11 hours ago, liveevil2000 said:

I feel the regen set wasnt forgiving enough for what I know of the game and my style of play.

That's definitely true once you start getting to +2's and higher.   /Regen requires a lot more driving than other sets, but the reward is dramatically better up time.  But if you're bankrolling a toon and running Set IOs, particularly ones that solve endurance issues, then /Regen starts to get passed by the +DEF/+RES sets.

 

11 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

I honestly can't think of any Scrapper secondary that would literally get 95% of its mitigation from pool powers.

That's because you're not understanding how the stacking math works.  When you're at 44% +DEF, that last 1% +DEF you might get from Stealth or Combat Jumping, is doubling your survival time.   That's right, doubling the time it takes for you to be defeated.  Every additional point of +DEF or +RES is more beneficial than the last.  Now, it's not quite that good when you're fighting +Xs becuase their accuracy floor is above 5%.  I think +4 AVs hit me at like 10-11%.   But /SR going from the 30% +DEF to 45% +DEF from Pools and Set IO bonuses is giving you more survivability than all your secondary powers combined.   Granted, its bcause you're starting at 30%.  So this is only true from +DEF/+RES sets that are high enough that they can get to the cap.   

 

 

11 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

I solo +3/x8 on a Scrapper build comfortably enough to where I could easily do it at +4. I don't use Barrier or Shadow Meld. Brutes don't even get Shadow Meld.

Perfect.  Turn off your pool powers, incarnates, and run a mission where you disable your Set IO bonuses and don't use any inspirations.   Tell us how you do.  Then you'll see how critical that off-set mitigation is.

[Lets talk Regeneration Set]

On 9/20/2023 at 3:27 AM, liveevil2000 said:

after reading the posts here and seeing the heated debate it stirred up. I decided to see for myself. 
 

I made 4 toons last night. 
all Brutes. All with claws as a primary.  All science origin. Seemed a fitting  set and origin with regen and a “controlled scientific” experiment and all. 
… and yes same costume design! I’m lazy that way. 

The defensive sets going head to head are

regeneration

willpower

super reflexes

Invulnerability 

So I know you already decided /Regen wasn't for you.  But I essentially did this on my own over the last six months.  Except I used Savage Melee and paired it with  /Regen, /SR,  /Ninjitsu, /Shield.   I also tried Staff/Willpower and En/Rad.  I got all of these toons in 40-50 (several to 50).  However, before I share the results, let's clarify some things.

 

1.  The problem with a discussion on Scrapper secondaries is that you are asking the wrong question.  Or rather, the answer is highly dependent on what assumptions each person is making.   Let me show you:

 

a) /Regen doesn't suck.  Not even remotely.  In fact, it's one of the top performing sets for how scrappers were designed to function.   

 

b) /Regen sucks because a small vocal minority of players are evaluating the set based on its ability to solo lvl 50 4x8 content, and acting as if that is the only standard by which to compare the secondaries.

 

2.  Scrapper secondaries who are soloing 4x8 are get 95% of their mitigation from outside of their secondaries.  So the irony of the secondary comparisons is not about the set itself, but how well the set can leverage the unbalanced impact of Pool Powers, Set IOs, and Incarnates.

 

3.  NOBODY is consistently soloing 4x8 without heavily investing in a build.   Those builds involves either capping +DEF or +RES, or heavily relying on things like cycling Barrier and Shadow Meld.  

 

4.  /Regen gets a bad rap because at level 50, it is the hardest set to cap +DEF or +RES and capping +DEF is THE most effective method of mitigation.   It's the reason why /SR is considered one of the better sets, even though naked, it is the one of the worst.  

 

What is my basis for saying this?

 

Awhile back, I was lobbying to get some quality of life improvements for /SR as a scrapper, as it is one of the worst sets leveling up.   Naturally some people insisted /SR is one of the best sets and it wasn't as bad as /Regen (said by the some of same people claiming /Regen sucks in this thread).   So I went and tested it for myself.  I was never a fan of /Regen on Live.  Never liked it.  But after soloing on straight IOs to 50, and then doing it again to 40 with another /Regen, I have found /Regen to be just a smidge behind /Ninjitsu for the best experience in leveling up.  By level 40 I was easily soloing +3s without using ANY inspiration or ANY power pools for mitigation.  I wasn't even using Hasten during combat.   This  without Tough or Weave or Shadow Meld or Rune of Protection, etc.   

 

/Regen far outperforms other sets in nominal game play.   But there are some caveats:

 

1.  /Regen requires a high degree of system mastery.   You have to know what you're fighting.  What status effects they use, how they fight, and how much damage things are likely to do.

 

2.  /Regen puts a lot more load on the player.   As you indicated, you don't have the "finesse" to play /Regen.  You have to be paying attention to your health bar at ALL times.   When you hear that sound of your Toon taking damage several hits in a row, you'd better be keeping one eyeball on your health and knowing when you have to time Reconstruction or use Dull Pain.    You have to anticipate the use/need for Instant Healing, because it ain't instant. 

 

Contrast this with /SR which is fire and forget.  You can put Practiced Brawler on autocast and that's all the attention you have to pay to the set, especially if you're above softcap and you haven't taken Elude.

 

3. /Regen is highly susceptible to debuffs, as many have opined.   This means you have to be very cognizant of who can/is debuffing you and how to stop it or mitigate it.  This is especially true when you firght +3/4 and you're getting hit all the time.  a +3/4 Sappers will own you.    Again, this adds to #2.  You have to really understand/know the game.

 

 

Are you wrong for not liking /Regen?  Not at all.  /SR at softcap is so much easier to play.  You just roll into almost anything you want and start punching.  But leveling up an /SR is one of the worst experiences, imo. 

 

The real problem with /Regen on the forums is you can't his the +DEF cap...and least not when Shadow Meld is down.   So this makes it much harder to solo 4x8 and as a result, you have people who trash the set. 

 

And let me point out, that I played the these sets without bank rolling them.  So if you're pumping Set IO's into /SR or /Shield from Day 1, then those sets are going to be a lot better than if you're only adding IOs when you can afford them on your own.   

 

The best set I've played leveling up is /Ninjitsu.  I was soloing at +3 by the 30....WITHOUT Inspiration (though have used the to fight EBs)  and without Set IOs (except for Overwhelming Fear which I put in all the other toons, so it's the same for everyone.  I also have not used any Tough or Weave on any of these builds.   /Nin is the hybrid of /SR and /Regen.   It provides enough +DEF that you aren't ravaged by debuffs and it has a click heal and click endurance which means my uptime is a smidge better than /Regen.

 

After /Regen, I'd probably vote /Rad as the third best leveling up.  It doesn't have quite the uptime of the top two.   /Willpower is not that great unless you really pour money into a build.  It lacks a +Heal and that makes it very susceptible to being rushed-down after an Alpha.  Plus, it's T9 sucks. 

[Looking for a Scrapper to level all the way (DM/SR or Kat/WP?)]

15 hours ago, Story Archer said:

As I mentioned, I'm basically focusing on those two now (Kat/WP and DM/SR), and I have no doubt that DeBuffs are going to be the bane of the former.

Debuffs don't really come on until the 40's.  And that's if you're running +3s.  The reason people talk about debuffs  a lot is due to a few specific circumstance's:

 

1.  Sappers.  Anyone who runs a non +DEF scrapper quickly learns about Sappers when they get to Peregrin Island and you generally won't you start fighting the Malta until Peregrine Island, so they have a minor impact overall.  But even +0 level Sappers can cause problems.

 

1.b Carnival.  These guys die and drain endo.  A few of them seem to have some serious endo drain powers.

 

2.  Cimerora (ITF) - The popularity of the ITF in Cimerora running at 4x8 has exposed the player base to the wonders of defense debuffing.   It's a rude awakening for many a /WP and /Regen scrapper/Brute/Tank who thinks their capped +RES and non-set +DEF is all that.  You can tack on all the CJ+Weave you want, and those +4 Bosses will eventually hit you and then the minions get on you like piranhas and you're faceplanting in like 10 seconds.  

 

This is why people talk about Defense Debuff Resistance like it's some holy trinity of /SR.   It's not.  Outside of Cimerora, there isn't that much defense debuffing.  Yes, IDF troops can do it, but Cimerora is on a whole other level of DD.   In fact, even /SR can be totally debuffed.  Take your /SR at soft cap and turn on all your /SR powers and sit in a group of 4x8 with multiple bosses.  If you just stand there and take it, they'll bring you down in about 30 seconds and they will have debuffed your defenses tremendously.  Yes, /SR's DDR helps, but it's overblown on account of that single ITF.

 

 3.  Slows.  Slows are the bane of click sets like /Regen.   Slows come on much earlier than other debuffs and they are more impactful because they are hurting a /Regen on both offense and defense.  Fortunately /Regen has Instant Healing and MoG which can bail you out of a bad situation.

 

4.  Negative To Hit.   You feels this more from specific bosses and elite bosses, and things like CoT Death Mages and Spectral Knights.

 

 

[Looking for a Scrapper to level all the way (DM/SR or Kat/WP?)]

11 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

The only drawback really might come with teaming as right or wrong many will kind of assume you'll 'tank'

The drawback, IMO, is that it takes longer to get through missions.   Sure, you have more survivability, but it comes at the cost of killing speed. 

 

11 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

I've personally never found SR any more difficult the most armors in terms of usage and the end cost of running the toggles is overall not significantly more than other sets. 

The point is that many of "other sets" have endurance granting abilities, /SR, /Shield, /Dark, /Invul/ don't have +recover/Endurance.   All the other ten secondaries have some sort of +Recovery, +Endo, or Endo Discount.   

 

11 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

But maybe it's just a good fit to my playstyle but ... *shrug*.  I do know my endgame build (Claws/SR/Body) runs the 3 toggles, Tough, Weave, Maneuvers, Tactics and Sprint (plus the essentially free Combat Jumping) non-stop and rarely bothers with Conserve Power or inspires beyond topping off the blue bar to free up inspire space.

You're talking about lvl 50 and I guarantee  you're not running a straight IO build.   With procs and set bonuses, nobody should be having endurance issues.  None of of my scrappers have endurance issues by lvl 40 if I buy recovery procs and get set bonuses.  

 

The OP is talking about a leveling up....not the end game.   /SR will have health and endurance issues running IOs "leveling up".   Be prepared to take a knee....often.

 

 

[Looking for a Scrapper to level all the way (DM/SR or Kat/WP?)]

As it turns out, DM/SR has been my main on both Live and Homecoming.  And while I love the set, it would not be my top recommendation.

 

12 hours ago, Story Archer said:

Play will primarily be solo with occasional duoing and teams only rarely. My main focus is to fully enjoy the pre-50 content. At the moment figure standard IO's only - my altitis combined with my personal aversion to power-leveling usually prevents me from being able to dive too deeply into sets - maybe a handful of uniques or procs in key spots and that's about it.

You haven't stated what difficulty level you want to run at, but assuming you're mainly interested in nothing higher than +2 by level 40, given these stated goals, I will tell you that you should absolutely run Anything/Regen.  For the last six months, I have been testing out the various secondaries with the same primary--savage melee.  I have been running nothing but IOs, with the sole exception of fully slotting Overwhelming Fear in Shred on all toons.  If you don't like /Regen, then I would recommend Radiation Armor.  Bio is also probably a good option too, though I have only tried it on a Tank.

 

I've tried /Regen on a few different primaries and it is, by far, the best solo experience I've had.   /Rad is good as well.  It doesn't have the big hit recovery like /Regen, but it does work well.  At the bottom of the list is /SR and /Shield.  I used to think /Shield was superior to /SR, but when it comes to leveling, /SR is actually better.  1)  The scaling passive +RES are far better at giving you time to run away compared to /Shield fixed +RES.  And you will be running away a lot as an /SR on IOS.  2)  With the recent change to allow Elude to be taken earlier, /SR has the Oh Crap power that is like an "I win" button in those mid-30s.  Far more effective than /Shied's Tier 9.  

 

The one major caveat with /Regen, however, is that you HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION.  This cannot be stated enough.  /Regen requires a LOT more user input to maximize and if you're not good at taking in peripheral information--like your health bar in the middle of a fight--then you might hate /Regen.  /Regen is very click-intensive.  You have to anticipate incoming damage and know when to hit Recon, Dull Pain, Instant Healing, Moment of Glory.  One of /Regen's powers is a Rez and you will use it if you start fighting +2 or higher, early on.

 

 

12 hours ago, Story Archer said:

My first thought is a DM/SR

There are a lot of issues with DM/SR...and they mostly come from /SR.   That main problem damage mitigation.   /SR is only getting about 28% +DEF from its active and possive positional defenses.  But you won't fully get that for all position groups until your 30's.  Which is to say that in the early levels  you're going to get hit.  You'll get hit more by Bosses and EBs and those bosses will have the double whammy of blowing past passive resistances.   AV's will have you for lunch on IOs.   Sure, by level 49, /SR, on IOs..you could soft cap with Stealth+CJ+Maneuvers+Tough, but you'll be passing out due to the lack of endurance and Dark Consumption is not going to stop that given how many slots you'll be putting into those other abilities.

 

Having leveled all these other secondaries, /Regen, by a country mile, has the most uptime.  On an IO build, by level 40, I could solo 3x1 with Reconstruction and Fast Healing. 

12 hours ago, Story Archer said:

Defense always seemed to be a 2-for-1 because not getting hit also offers protection vs. mez effects

Mez effects are not an issue for scrappers, except for Knockback on some secondaries.   The real issue for a set like /Regen once you get past 40, are debuffs.   -To Hit from bosses (I'm looking at you Nosferatu) can be crippling for /Regen. But that's true for other sets as well.  The reality is that even as an /SR, those EB's are going to hit you and debuff you.   The biggest scare for /Regen are Malta Sappers.  But you can tactics your way through that.  And it's not like /SR doesn't have it's own kryptonite in the form of non-positional psi, toxic, and Quartz crystals dropped by Devouring Earth.

 

12 hours ago, Story Archer said:

Would the Fighting Pool/Combat Jumping still be needed and what Ancillary Pool would compliment it best?

I never take the Fighting pool on any of my scrappers--EDIT: I've taken Tough on my SM/Regen, but never slotted it and never turn it on.  But most people do.  I would say it's absolutely not necessary unless you want to solo 4x8 and solo AVs.  I've done both of those things on my DM/SR without any Fighting Pool, but I can imagine there are other DM/SR builds that can do more than what I've done using the Fighting Pool.  But I'm not doing those things on IO builds.   

 

12 hours ago, Story Archer said:

Even as an AoE attack, is Touch of Fear worth including in the build?

I use ToF primarily as a control and debuff (though at high levels, it probably does very little debuff against 4x8).  It's actually really good with crowd control and I put a KD proc in it.   I can imagine if you proc it out, it can do decent damage, but you said you're not going to go deep into a build.  So yes, ToF is a great method to mitigate damage.   It is probably better on DM/Regen build than a DM/SR because /Regen is all about slowing down the rate of damage...where /SR doesn't want to extend the fight.

 

12 hours ago, Story Archer said:

Would a Brute be a straight-up improvement over a Scrapper in this case? I'm not sure what the differences are beyond the effects of their inherents.

 

My issue with Brutes is that you are forced into a go-go-go style of soloing.  On an /SR, you'll be taking damage and need to take a knee from time to time, and that will hurt your Fury bar.   In teaming, your punch-voke means you'll be taking the aggro if there's no Tank, and that's not always a good thing if you're running an IO build.  I also think Scrapper crits are more dynamic and fun.  Some builds are definitely going to be more survivable on a Brute e.g. /Regen.  But whether the Scrappers higher damage base means they are equally as effective, has yet to be disproven.  So if I'm going Brute, I would definitely go /Regen for solo work.

12 hours ago, Story Archer said:

My other thought was Katana / Willpower

I played a Staff/Willpower to 50.  Staff also have a Divine Avalanche type of attack.  At first, I thought /WP was what /Regen wanted to be when it grew up.  But it's not.  IMO, for what you want to do, /Willpower is not a good choice.   /WP's main issue is that it lacks a +Heal power.  While it does have some layered defenses and a fair amount of +regen, you can get overwhelmed by single hard targets.   /WP needs enemies to fuel its +REGEN and if you end up fighting Bosss and EB's solo, you can't out heal them.  Tough and Weave are probably very helpful to /WP.  At 50, /WP probably has a higher ceiling than /Regen.  But with /WP you really need to spend time getting deep into a build.  Just pumping money into it, is not enough.

 

 

12 hours ago, Story Archer said:

I've looked at Ninjitsu instead of SR, but I have zero experience with it so I'm not sure how they compare head-to-head

 

I'm doing my SM/Ninjitsu run through right now.  It's similar to /SR but with a couple of major differences:

1.  It's got its own +heal and +Endo  clicks.  This dramatically improves the up time over /SR.

2  It has a built in Stealth-like power that improves crit attacks and gives you some ability sneak around.

3. It lacks scaling +RES, so not quit as reliably to run away.  

4. It lacks KB resistance early on, so this is a little annoying

5.  It requires more driving.   /SR is fire and forget.  /Nin has its click heal/endo, so you're having to devote a little more energy into maximizing the build.

 

If you want fire and forget then you're looking at  /WP, /SR, /Shield, and I'll put /Invul closer to FaF than.   If you like driving, then /Regen, /Ninjitsu, /Rad, /Bio, /Dark Armor

 

IME, /Rad is a good compromise.

 

I have not tried El Armor, En Armor, Dark Armor, Fire, Ice, Stone.   I have very limited experience with /Invul.  Haven't played it since Live.

[Energy/SR scrapper looking for neat ideas]

Elude is actually helpful fighting Incarnates and TFs on 4*.  It's really good leveling up.

 

 

[What builds/power sets are able to tank/solo +4x8?]

I ran my DM/SR redside and didn't have much trouble soloing 4x8.  I did run into a Longbow mission which had four +4 boss in an -/SR-killing config.  It was an Emp defender with a SS/Invul tank and I think maybe a Trick Arrow or Rad def and two other bosses   The +4 Emp Defender boss was putting Fortitude on the Tank and it was having no trouble hitting me through the softcap.   And the Defender had no trouble healing the tank.  I actually had to call in another lvl 50 to come hep me double team them.  I suppose I could have loaded up on Insp, but I thought it might be interesting to see if someone else could solo that boss group.

 

Admittedly, I cannot solo +4 AVs...at all.  I just don't put out enough single target damage and /SR sucks against AVs because a +4 AV is going to be capped at like 10% to hit chance.  I might get one down to half-health cyclying Barrier, but it takes so long to get through the AV's hit points it is eventually going to two-shot me due the RNG long before I can kill it.  Maybe an En Melee./SR might be able to kill it faster. 

[What builds/power sets are able to tank/solo +4x8?]

 I will confess that my DM/SR cannot effectively solo the 801.x  content.  I tried one of those mission, cleared the first spawn without a death, and then proceeded to die like 5 times trying to clear the next two spawn.  At that point I decided it wasn't worth my time and winning through attrition didn't really prove anything in my mind.

[What builds/power sets are able to tank/solo +4x8?]

10 hours ago, Captain Fabulous said:

Yeah, there's gonna be a LOT of people who claim their character can easily solo steamroll +4/x8 and honestly most of them are lying.

I don't know about lying, but there's a difference between being able to solo a 4x8 group and being able to solo all 4x8 groups.

[What builds/power sets are able to tank/solo +4x8?]

17 hours ago, foosbabaganoosh said:

Question in title, just curious if this is something commonly achieved by scrappers allowing them to serve as tanks in standard missions. Recently built out a WM/SD scrapper that I've been having a ton of fun with but wish I had just a tad more survivability when it comes to higher difficulty settings. Using information from builds here, I have positional defense at or near the softcap, and resistances fairly decent, but cannot survive a mob's focus.

 

Interested to hear what others have been able to put together in a scrapper that can take the damage while dealing it back!

First off, this is a great topic for the forums.  Second the answers will be based on assumptions that you don't address.

 

17 hours ago, foosbabaganoosh said:

if this is something commonly achieved by scrappers allowing them to serve as tanks in standard missions.

As has been pointed out, you're asking two different questions.   On the first, soloing 4x8, IME, is NOT "commonly" done.   Mainly because the average player is not going to expend the time or money to achieve it.  In addition, soloing 4x8 is going to take a lot longer than teaming 4x8., so some players (like myself) find it somewhat tedious and less fun, even when I can do it.

 

The second question regarding tanks will depend on your definition of "serve as tanks."  If "tanking" is simply taking an alpha from each mob, then the answer is an absolute yes.  On a 4x8 team (which typically includes support), a scrapper can absolutely go from group to group and take the first hit.   However, if "tanking" involves locking down aggro like a  tank who uses Taunt, then the answer is an a definite no.  Some scrappers have taunt auras which can have some effect, but they can't reliably hold aggro on a 4x8.  And remember, when you're at x8, you're going to invariably aggro adjacent groups and a scrapper will have no chance at containing that.  

 

That having been said, if you're in a competent 4x8 group, especially one with multiple buff/debuff sets, almost anyone can serve as an alpha-taker and psuedo tank.

 

17 hours ago, foosbabaganoosh said:

Interested to hear what others have been able to put together in a scrapper that can take the damage while dealing it back!

So apart from your question about "tanking" you seem to be asking about the peak power of scrappers.  I can tell you from my own experience, yes, scrappers can reliably solo 4x8, but it's not trivial to achieve this.  My DM/SR can solo any 4x8 group that I've come across without using click Incarnates or Inspirations.  Now, given that it's /SR, there is always a chance I can go down, but nothing gives me trepidation.   And I do NOT have Tough or Weave on my build.  Nor do I have Mids, so I had to spend about 5-6 hours of in-game research and two respecs.  I also put in about 300+m Influence and it has the +3 level shift (though I could solo any non-Incarnate 4x8 without Incarnate powers).  

 

Conversely, my Staff/Willpower scrapper can only solo some 4x8.  Again, the build does not have Tough or Weave or a bunch of accolades.  I am not sure what level shift.  I put in about 200m Influence, but again, I do not have Mids.  Nor have I put in any real effort creating a build.  Haven't even respec'd him.

 

As someone said, lots of AT's can solo 4x8, the question is how fast and how safe....and are you popping Inspirations.    

 

Soloing 4x8 is generally a question of whether you can cap your +DEF.   Scrapper secondaries that can do this can generally solo 4x8.   That having been said, the toughest scrapper I've seen was a /Radiation Armor.   He did cycle Shadow Meld.  

[Staff Fighting feels kinda bad on a scrapper]

I could be wrong.  But if you're at 41% before Guarded Spin, you should be capping the +0 EB at around 6 or 7 % .   Were you getting hit more than that?  I know what when I fight the hydra in the sewer, on Tin/Plex, it hits my /SR like I'm naked.

 

What sucks for /SR is that even if you're getting +DEF, you're not getting any scaling +RES to the damage.  So with /SR, you're generally used to that last sliver of health lasting a long time.  But vs toxic or psi, you die real quickly.  Especially if they use Build Up and hit you with a big hit.  That toxic will melt  /SR

[Staff Fighting feels kinda bad on a scrapper]

I played a Staff/WP scarpper up to 50.  I didn't think it was that bad.  It does suffer a little on ST damage, but it makes up for it on the AoE side.   With /SR, you should be near capping +DEF with the Guarded Spin.  The reason why you sucked against Silver Mantis is because you have no +DEF vs Toxic.  That's SR's fault, not Staff's

[Dark melee/?]

9 hours ago, Nyghtmaire said:

* Soul Drain is a 30 second, 50% damage buff that can be made perma with a recharge-focus build. 2.508 arcanatime. Every additional mob increases the bonus by 10%.

 

* Build Up is a 10 second, 100% damage buff that cannot be made permanent under any circumstances, even with external buffs capping global recharge. 1.33 arcanatime. 

First off, looking at City of Data, Dark Melee doesn't look to have lower base damage than say Martial Arts or Ice Melee.  So my statement that DM is lower base damage isn't universally true.  

 

So why does DM seem to feel like  a weaker damage set? Probably two major reason :

 

1.  Shadow Maul, Touch of Fear, and Midnight Grasp are DoT.

 

2.  It may be due to the way SD works vs Build Up.  SD may look better on average, but this is a case where averages may be deceiving.   Build Up is giving you 100% damage boost....up front.  Front loaded damage is key.  This allows you to cycle a Primary's most damaging attacks immediately.   I can fire BU right before getting into a spawn, zero in on the boss or LT and take them out with one or two shots. 

 

Contrast that with SD, you have to get into the group, wait for the animation time to complete, then take an alpha from the boss and others, and then attack at like  a 60-70% boost if you're solo.   Also, if we're talking near Perma -SD, then BU is going to be ready every spawn.  You can get into a off cycle with SD where you're having to re-fire it and then stand their rooted in the middle of combat.  This makes DM feel slow on top of performing lower.

 

Anyone else do actual game numbers on DM, pre-Incarnates and Set bonuses?

 

[Build Request - Savage Melee & Regeneration]

For my Staff/WP, no Incarnates slotted, no Inspirations, no Temp Powers.   I did put like $200m into the build, but I don't have Mids, so I didn't work anything out ahead of time.

[Build Request - Savage Melee & Regeneration]

11 hours ago, BrandX said:

I've ran WP, and it's t9 is a great alpha absorber. 

I haven't found it to be very effective at 4x8.  

 

What diff are you running ITF at?  When you say 'without incarnates" do you mean you haven't created any or you didn't click any?  Because if you've got them slotted, then you may be still getting a level bump.