LordScrod

I've not played the Sentinel side of the Archer/Ninja combo, but I can say that the Blaster side is very much 'kill or be killed'. You don't have stackable stuns or holds, and bosses and elite bosses will be very annoying to deal with. You have to stay mobile, use purple and pink pills, and just endure their hard-hitting ranged attacks. BUT! It's a TON of fun, and you don't have to survive them long, because they go down so very, very quick! 🙂 Bad guys that get up to you have to deal with your blade, and you hit just as hard as any scrapper (harder even, since Defiance is a global damage boost). Your Golden Dragonfly deals stupid amounts of pain to any bad guy that has rushed up on you through a hail of arrows. I did take tough/weave and combat jumping/acrobatics in my build, and slotted them to max out their benefits. The hold immunity from Acrobatics isn't strong, but it's enough. Overall the pool powers helped a lot, and was pretty thematic with leaping backwards firing arrow after arrow at bad guys, and all the +Defense makes for a reasonably dodgy Ninja. Also remember that even stunned, slept, or held, a Blaster can still use their first two primary and first secondary powers, so that's a thing. You're always capable of dealing damage. On the Sentinel side, the points made by Hardboiled are very relevant. Ninjitsu is a great set once you've got a few enhancements slotted, and you gain protection against status effects. Always useful. I don't know anything about the Ninja Tools set, I'm sorry to say. Let us know what you decide to play! --Scrod

Thank you, Redlynne! Also, ❤️ for 'Wall of Text crits you!'. 😄 Rogue/Angband for the win. I appreciate the warning. I'm not at all surprised that it had some unintended effects. Thank you, Sir Myshkin! I knew someone would've already done the heavy lifting on this thing. And here I thought I had coined the term 'proc monster' all by my lonesome. 😄 Writer's hubris, no doubt. --Scrod

So, let me level with y'all. I've got some complaints with proc builds. They're on the esoteric side. They're non-intuitive. And they seem to be the thing folks want to throw at newbies asking questions both here on the forums and in help chat. So now I'm wondering, "Just how good are these things, anyway?". "Is it really worth advising a brand new player to build like this?" To judge it, I need to see it for myself, and what better place to go than the very place the advice is being given? So, what AT and Power Sets would y'all recommend to really show off what a beast procs can make you? If there's a particular gimmick to the build, let me know, but I can probably figure out the gist. I'm aware of Grav/Time and Illusion/Storm and a couple of others. What's your go-to combination for PPM insanity? --Scrod

Well there you go! Thanks for looking at that. I'll edit my post later this evening when I'm back at the computer. Much appreciated, Redlynne. 🙂 --Scrod

I admit, it's been years since I used Mids' Builder. I'm not near a computer until late tonight, so if someone could check, that'd be great. I don't want to be giving bad advice (or using firing cycles uselessly 😄 ) --Scrod

Echoing other folks here: If there's literally nothing else to take, then sure. Repair is a nearly instant full heal with good range on it, so that's cool, but if you already have access to another heal via your secondary (and Electric Affinity has a solid, fast-cycling chain heal), then you don't need it at all. --Scrod

I'll agree to that, because the stuff we're talking here is esoteric, end-of-game, bored-out-of-our-skulls kind of building that is not the least bit intuitive. I don't feel like it's addressing CantgetRight's question of 'Are Trick Arrow and Archer characters useless?'. No. They're not. They're not hyper-efficient, but the majority of players are not building for that or anything close. I would never advise a brand new player to avoid a set they want to try based on possible endgame builds. As quickly as the developers laid this new proc hotness on us, they'll turn it around and make Archery THE go-to set with some kind of math-alchemy. I wouldn't worry about the can of worms. 😄 What you're seeing here between me and Hjarki are two players who have played every AT, virtually every power set, have a few dozen Incarnates with a couple billion influence on each, and can practically rattle off mechanics without looking at the Wiki. I wasn't aware of the changes made to proc-based builds, but don't even worry about those until you've played for a while and are looking for new things to try. It is by no means a standard way of building a character. Mostly, have fun with the game, and always feel free to ask questions! 🙂 Yes, if only there was something that could... I dunno, 'Glue' them in place. Or maybe something really 'Slick' for them to trip and fall on.... /snark /snark /snarf 😄 😄 😄 Works great against +3's, and 'okay' against +4's in my experience. You'd really rather throw the Slick down for +4's because the ticks of knockdown build up over time, and even Elites will slip and fall, if rarely. Generally it says in the power if multiple applications don't stack. Where is your information coming from? I'm certainly not infallible, but it's been my experience that four of five of these means most of the bad guys are whiffing. I don't have empirical evidence, just a lot, lot, lot of anecdotal experience. --Scrod

Okay, so I went and inquired in Everlasting's Help Chat about this proc business, because slotting solely for procs made very little sense to me. Apparently, you have a greater chance for a proc based on the power's recharge time. So, six-slotting a power with procs can make for some insane damage in slow-charging powers. Yes, that's true. In that regard: Archery is not the set for you. Not by any means. It tends to recharge faster than everyone else, and has no secondary effects to leverage should no proc occur. So, yes, in that regard, I agree with Hjarki. A proc-based build for Archery isn't the way to go. It's built for rapid, accurate damage, not... whatever proc-building is. 😛 All in all, I'd end with: Never feel bad for playing what you want to play. If you're a Defender, your role is not making the bad guys face-plant as fast as possible. It's about helping your team do that and keeping them safe while doing it. Trick Arrow/Archery is thematic, fun, and effective, and I think I've demonstrated that. It was not built for the new hotness that's been introduced with the proc changes, but then, not much was specifically built with that in mind either. So, play it if it's your thing. I certainly am not retiring any of mine. 🙂 --Scrod

Okay, a few points. Snap Shot is a 'power no one wants to use'? It doesn't produce a big number, yes, but it's low endurance and ready every two seconds. If procs are your thing, then you want to be attacking as rapidly as possible to give procs a chance to pop. Unless you kids are using 'proc' in a different way than I'm used to, Snap Shot helps. 1.15 is fifteen percent more than 1.00. That's just plain math. I'm sorry to say that if you're waiting on Ranged Shot for all your damage in Archery, then yes, no wonder it's so disappointing. So, let's compare a few things: Ranged Shot versus Moonbeam - Sniper Attacks Ranged Shot Moonbeam Avg Dmg 41.85 41.85 D/AT 11.40 12.57 D/Activation 2.67 2.73 Activation Time 3.67s 3.33s Recharge 12s 12s Accuracy 1.39x 1.20x Slightly higher on the DPS, but consider the accuracy bonus. 39% versus 20%. Ranged Shot will hit nearly twice as often. Aimed Shot Gloom Avg Dmg 9.30 16.37 D/AT 9.30 14.88 D/Activation 1.86 1.80 Activation Time 1s 1.10s Recharge 4s 8s Accuracy 1.15x 1.00x Functionally identical, except for the accuracy bonus, so I'd give Aimed Shot the edge so long as you're handling their lethal resistance (which Trick Arrow does). Archery has the Fire Arrow, but everything else from Dark is utility or an AE attack. I suppose we can compare their Novas. Ranged Shot Blackstar Avg Dmg 15.66 37.20 D/AT 7.83 12.40 D/Activation 0.23 0.25 Activation Time 2s 3s Recharge 1m5s 2m25s Accuracy 1.00x 1.40x Yes, Blackstar does a bigger number, and hits more often. It recharges in more than twice the time though, so it certainly needs the accuracy bonus, particularly since we're running into the center of the enemy mob. I'm not sure what you mean by Trick Arrow having 'no recharge, accuracy, or defense'. You mean it doesn't buff you with those things? That can't be what you're saying, and I must be misunderstanding. For its debuffs, it's not strong on the -recharge front, but -22.5% base reduction to defense from one shot over several grouped baddies seems pretty good to me. For Accuracy, Entangling, Ice, Acid, and EMP use a to-hit check. Everything else is auto. As for 'time taken to activate them', I mean, we're talking three to four seconds to get Gas, Glue, Disruption, and Acid out there. They should already have one or two flashes on them as your melee is running in, so that's -10 to 20% to the accuracy off the bat. If Oil Slick is happening then that's usually first. And Oil Slick should be an every-battle type of power once you're up to top levels. You want to land it right about the moment the melee does their alpha. I'm not sure what 'difficult to slot' means. What's hard about Accurate Defense Debuff or Slow or Sleep? There's clearly something I'm not understanding there, and I'd appreciate anything you can add. I dunno, man. I'll team up with a Stormie or Rad any day and hold my own quite confidently. Hell, half my stuff is fire-and-forget. I can get down to helping do damage a lot quicker than some sets. And again, I'd argue any damage my Resist debuffs is contributing goes to my tally, and that's a lot.

So, I'm much more of a lurker than a commenter, but having played since Beta in 2003, I can say with some authority that the TA/Archer Defender (or Archer/TA Corruptor or Anything/TA MM) is entirely viable for top-tier content, even solo. Let me address some points: 1 - Archery's "Low Damage" It's not low. It's higher than everything but Fire, Beam Rifle, and Radiation in its Damage/Cast Cycle. It's also the highest inherent accuracy of any set. You hit more often, so you deal damage more often. Look at Snap Shot vs Dark Blast: Snap Shot Dark Blast Average Damage 6.32 9.30 Dmg/Activation 6.32 9.30 Dmg/Cast Cycle 2.11 1.86 Activation 1 Second 1 Second Recharge 2 Seconds 4 Seconds End Cost 3.54 5.2 Accuracy 1.15x 1.00x That 1.86 Damage Per Activation is seen a lot in other sets. Three sets do slightly better in the D/Act department, but no one has the inherent accuracy of Archery, not even Assault Rifle. Accuracy increases damage. Archery attacks hit 15% more often than equivalent attacks from most other sets. A miss is zero DPS. So, even if your snap shot just does one point, it's still more than the Dark Blast that whiffed. The second part of the 'low damage' argument is that Archery is mostly Lethal damage. Even Blazing Arrow is a lethal attack with a fire DOT on it. Explosive arrow is smash/lethal. Lethal is one of the most common resistances in the game. Even by level 15 or so, you're running into groups that have mobs with some inherent resistance. By level 50, most everyone has at least a little lethal resistance under their belt. Make no mistake: that is indeed a factor! And if it was the only factor in a Trick Arrow/Archery build, then, yes Virginia, Archery needs a little love. Even with the accuracy bonus, a mob with 50% lethal resistance but 10% dark resistance is going to hurt more from dark attacks, even with the occasional whiff. Fortunately: Trick Arrow has some solutions for you. 2 - Trick Arrow Is 'Extra Baggage' Nonsense. In fact, it's nonsense and balderdash. Trick Arrow just isn't as flashy as other sets. It doesn't make your allies glow, it doesn't create an idyllic glade on the battlefield, and it doesn't come with thunderstorms and rain. As was pointed out in the excellent post above: Trick Arrow is a debuff set. It does all debuffs, all the time, and it does them very, very well. I echo Shadewe's experience of being in groups where they said 'Wow, that was easy!' and stand around patting the blasters and brutes on the back while I'm leaning against the wall with a raised eyebrow and faint smirk. Of course it was easy. You know why? The enemies you were fighting were suffering a few issues: A : -30% Accuracy from three Flash Arrows. B : Slowed by 90% and nicely grouped up from the Glue Arrow. C : Damage Debuffed by -31.25% when they weren't choking (slept) from the Gas Arrow. D : Defense Debuffed by a base of -25% and taking 20% more damage from the Acid Arrow that sprayed all over them. E : Taking another extra 20% damage from the Disruption Arrow playing bongos on their atoms. F : Falling on their asses over and over (plus possibly being on fire) from the Oil Slick Arrow. G : Mass-held from the EMP Arrow (which lets that Ice Arrow hold a boss quite nicely, thank you). That's not 'extra baggage', and anyone who thinks Trick Arrow is 'Tier 3' (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean) probably just doesn't know everything we bring to the table. Being able to rapidly evaluate the current situation and use the right arrow is vital to playing effectively. Not every arrow is used in every single fight. Really, I wish it had been called 'Tactical Arrow' (though it's a great name for the blaster set, which is a lot of this in a lite beer version). You will use some arrows in nearly every fight, and you'll save at least one of them for the Oh Shit button. And, remember that problem with Archery dealing only lethal damage? As a solo Defender you get +30% inherent, and Acid plus Disruption boost it by another 40% through reducing enemy resistance. Tack on Assault for another 18% for you, and suddenly the baddies' high resistances ain't so high. Yes, it is true that if you were dealing Energy you'd be doing more, but the thread is about Trick Arrow/Archery being viable, not raw optimization. The two sets work very well together thanks to those resistance debuffs, and when you combine it with everything else Trick Arrow brings to the table, you can solo quite well. 3 - Your Arrows And When To Use Them A : Entangling Arrow A simple 'I didn't say you could leave' arrow. You know when your Rad or Dark using buddies leave their Infection/Darkest Night toggled on the minion that's now running full-tilt to aggro the other group? That's when you use it. Also it brings down flying enemies. Scrappers will thank you for the consideration. B : Flash Arrow This makes sure your overzealous Brute doesn't aggro the neighboring group while lining up his perfect AE ground-stomp. If that neighboring group is close, it doesn't hurt to drop this on them. In the immediate fight, that -ACC debuff stacks. Just a couple of slots to increase its effectiveness will let you apply a -10% accuracy debuff to them. Each application falls off after a full minute, and your base recharge is 15 seconds. Usually this'll be down around 7 seconds by the time you've slotted a few set IOs. And if you opt for Hasten, 5 seconds or better. It's no Hurricane, but it builds up to be better than Hurricane if you spam it, or if you want to spend a little time prepping the next group for your attack. That's not so viable in groups, but solo, psh! Spend thirty seconds cutting their accuracy in half and then don't even worry about getting hit. I use this several times every fight. C : Glue Arrow The Bread, as I call it, because it lays the foundation for all the horrible things you're going to do to the baddies. Slot it with three slows (and maybe a recharge), and it'll come with its own Chariots of Fire soundtrack for slow-motion running. By itself it cannot slow Elite Bosses or things like Warwolves down to the absolute minimum, but it does make a dent. Plenty for you to keep away from a mean solo fighter like that. It holds the bad guys in your Disruption and Poison fields quite nicely, and a little bit of -Recharge never hurts. I use this every fight. D : Ice Arrow Single-target hold with a long duration. That annoying Medic or Empath lieutenant can't do their job encased in ice, now can they? Also, when stacked with literally any other hold effect will hold a boss. And by the way, you do have another hold in your quiver. More on that later. E : Poison Gas Arrow The Butter, as I call it. 31.25% damage reduction for all enemy attacks across the board. Oh look! I have 'psionic resistance' as a Defender! No, not quite, but it's more than that Invulnerability tanker has. On top of which, it's a sleep with a 24 second baseline. It's not 100% sleep, but any enemy not shooting is doing zero damage. I use this every fight, sometimes more than once since Elites and AVs will take a while to take down. F : Acid Arrow Share the love. Give your team an even better accuracy bonus (and make your own shots hit that much more). Plus, let them inflict 20% more damage across the board. The only problem with Acid Arrows is that ticking 1 point of damage. It wakes up baddies who are choking on your gas. But, that said, the splash on the Acid Arrow is not huge. Mostly I use it to soften the Boss, because he wasn't slept by the gas anyway. Duration on the acid is 20 seconds, and the base recharge is 20 seconds, which means that you'll eventually get it down to 10-ish or better. The effects stack, so that 20% damage resistance debuff can get down to 60% if you push it, and 40% without trying. That lethal damage is getting more lethal all the time! I use this in nearly every fight. G : Disruption Arrow Pick a spot to throw a party, usually right in the middle of your glue field. The radius on the Disruption effect is huge, and it's a 20% resistance debuff. It lasts 31.5 seconds with a one minute recharge. By mid to late 30's you'll be able to have two down for a short time. It's easy to use at least one every fight, and you'll have two stacking for brief periods during Elite/AV fights. You can eventually get this to two at almost all times with the right build. H : Oil Slick Arrow Jam for the Bread & Butter. This is your damage power. Yes, you heard right: Damage Power. It's an Ice Sheet you can set ablaze, a sleet storm that does more than just knock them over. Enemies on the slick are always falling down. They try to run off it, but can't because they're falling down (and probably slowed by glue, right?). It lasts a good long while, and then you can set it on fire! It's what your Fire Arrow was made for. Slot it like a damage power, apply the resistance debuffs from your other arrows, and if you're solo, it's like a Burn / Inferno over a very wide radius that the baddies can't escape. The damage is ridiculous. Minions are melted, LTs are cooked, and Bosses are a crispy, golden brown. If nothing else, everything is now nice and softened for your incoming Rain of Arrows. Cooldown is 3 minutes, so it's not every single fight until top levels, but plenty fast enough to use it on a new mob. I : EMP Arrow The Oh Shit button. It's a 3 magnitude hold, which combines with anything else to hold a Boss. At a 5 minute baseline recycle I admit I don't use it as often as I should, but I like having it handy for when the Brute pulls that other team by accident, or an MM minion goes running off to the restroom guarded by 20 Malta Sappers. That -1000% to regen rate is great for a big push to put a dent in (or finish off) Elites/AVs, and if someone on the team is playing the Endurance game, this'll drain a whole group by over half. I slot it like a Hold since that's the effect I need most often. So, that's a lot going on. And it's no wonder folks look at it all these options and go 'Lol! Chrono Shift go brrrr!'. This is not a face-roll set. (Neither are any of the others, not purely, but there are easier sets to play.) 3 - But I'm Not A Defender That's okay, because all this stuff applies in nearly the same ways to everyone else that can use Trick Arrow as a secondary. Corruptors don't get quite the debuff numbers, but they do get Scourge and have higher baseline damage at all times. You're still going to wreck some faces even with the -15% to resistances from Disruption and Acid. Your baseline Oil Slick damage is actually the same as the Defender version, plus gets the benefit of Scourge. You have to work a little harder at the Support part of your role than the Defender, but that's Corruptor life. As a Mastermind your support numbers are identical to Corruptors for some things, and worse for others, BUT!! your're not really a support class. You're mostly a damage class with support secondaries. You're still getting -15% to resistance from Disruption and Acid, and your Oil Slick damage is the same. Plus minions no longer run out of burning oil (thank the friggin gods, because that used to be SO aggravating way back when). My Ninja/Trick Arrow is doing +2x6 by 32 and +4x8 at 50 with no real problems. I've never done a Trick Arrow Controller, largely because none of their primaries speak to me for it. I dunno. If I've got a quiver full of trick arrows, then I should have some regular arrows in there to shoot too, no? That's just me. I'm sure it could do very well with some of the Controller primaries, though keep in mind you still need something to ignite your oil slick. Only fire damage will do it. 4 - Things You Can't Do You can't solo Hamidon. Sorry, but that's not in the cards. Don't feel bad, because the only ATs that can grab their own Hami-O's have to use very specific power sets and slotting to have a chance. And some of those have to do it perfectly. Even one mis-stroke and they lose. You can't do +4x8. At least, not against Incarnate content. Strangely, Malta is doable, but only with a lot of setup between groups and a couple pills from the tray. Council, sure, but anyone can +4x8 those goons if you've got any KB resistance at all. Most other groups are beyond the Trick Arrow/Archery ability to solo at crazy difficulty. Oddly though, not for an Archery/Tac Arrow though, but that's Blasters for ya. I'll admit, mine is tricked out to the nines, but +4x8 was the name of the game until Dark Astoria, and then after a couple of Incarnate abilities and a few more IO sets, and I was back up there. You can't heal. Not without Aid Other that is. I usually grab that, Aid Self, and Combat Medic for that reason. You can't save people from making mistakes, and even with all your debuffs, the team will take the hits. I'm not saying you need to heal every boo-boo, and if a team expects that from you, then the Empath is right over there. But, the odd spot-heal can be pretty clutch at the right time. And for an MM, it does save on downtime to toss the odd heal rather than dismissing to re-summon. Conclusions: Well, I hadn't intended this to go so long as to need a conclusion, but I really like Trick Arrow and find it one of the most underrated sets, because it's not flashy, and debuffs go unnoticed. It's more difficult to use than other sets, because it requires more working knowledge of the game, and strong tactical awareness. You need to know who the enemies are, what the do, which ones to hold, which ones to acid, and so on. You need to recognize when the fight is going wrong to hit the EMP Arrow, and you need to know how to lay down ground-target abilities to greatest effect. I would not recommend Trick Arrow as your very first character, unless Green Arrow / Hawkeye is your favorite superhero of all time, and that's what you want to play. If that's the case, you'll love it. The learning curve is steep, but you'll feel like you're those guys. One thing to remember, City is not one of those games where optimizing to the Nth degree is going to net you massively more effectiveness than anyone else in your role. If your prime goal is making bad guys face-plant as fast as possible, then there are other builds (though a Nina/Trick Mastermind just about does that). You'll take down entire groups with Trick Arrow, but it needs a bit of setup, and intelligent application of your abilities. There's a reason Fire/Spines is THE farming build and not Trick Arrow/Archery. Bringing it all home: Have fun with it. Don't let other people tell you how to play. You are far more effective than some will give you credit for. You can play this solo to great effect. Hope this was useful! 🙂 --Scrod