ApolloInferno

Thus the arguement above: Plant is in a decent place right now. There are now plenty of control set that probabaly do better then plant now. Just needs a slight tune up to be inline with other control powers and were grand.

Once i added insps, Rad Assault and incarnates yes. Plant cant defeat 4+8x Cims by its self as far as i can tell. (Which is why when i dropped using seeds on live i would die lol)

This thought did actually occur to me. But i ended landing on them specifically because the dom set was performing so well against things like council and malta that i needed to get something more difficult to actually see something more then: "oh i guess enemies are dead". Im sure some arnt surprised Live Seeds + Creepers do very well. But what surprised me was that Vines+Spores keeps everything locked down on TB. I had to find something difficult lol Cimerorans had enough mez protect and damage output to track a bunch of things at same time. If i didnt run enough mez or damage ouput they would always kill me. Also Cims are quite punishing to test because anytime i decided to play like crap i would just die and have to reset data set again lol Tried rikti, council, rularru, nemesis, carnival, matla. But im sure someone could come up with better options

Time for my last set of Number Crunching for Plant Changes on Dominator! This time I focused on the Plant set as a whole if you were to play the game in an 8x setting. I testing this on my fully set Plant/Rad Assault Dom. I added Spore Burst, Spirit Tree, and Vines to build for both Live and Test Build (TB) versions. Please note I play an aggressive Build with alot of Recharge and Max HP, with little to no def/res in build. ----- Once I did some practice and deaths, I settled on parameters: - 4+8x ITF First Mission --- Ran to the first big room with the sybils. - Limited myself to Barrier Core t4 + 2 Mid Luck insps (Refreshing as needed) - Test completed when I die or all enemies in the room are dead - Did multiple tests on Live and TB with seeds and Rad Assault; Then a couple without Seeds and Rad Assault (To gauge control and creeper effectiveness) - At the end, I compared the Damage Done and the Clear Time (or Death Time) ----- Results: I separated everything into a Good and Bad category. Hopefully, it will add more clarity. THE GOOD: - On Live, there was very little I could do to keep myself alive when I wasn't using Seeds. Creepers + mez was just not good enough to kill the enemies before they eventually got me. On TB though, New Vines and Spore Burst were holding down the enemies. I would only die sometimes to player error, but Test Build Vines and Spore Burst proved they are in a good place. - On TB, Spirit Tree's regen and aggro were nice to have. All the enemies would group up on any Spirit Tree I spawned. Perfect for AoE follow up. - On TB, Carrion Creeper spawns were spot on. THE BAD: - TB Creeper Damage output again came to 30% Less then Live on Average, Now that I have gotten this number multiple times I'm pretty confident this is accurate. - TB Creepers can't survive without constant CC or damage output to keep them alive. There were a few cases where TB creeper damage output was 70% less then Live. Specifically, this occurred when I wasn't using Seeds + Rad Assault. - TB requires you to bring Vines and Spore Burst so that Creeper don't feel like complete garbage. Enemies kill creepers pretty fast since you can't confuse them as much now. So if you can't kill the enemies they need to be mezzed. Willing to bet the difference is even more stark on a Controller. - TB Seeds does not mez big groups effectively enough to protect your creepers but you need to take it if you want faster group clear times. I have already gone over this before: but I suspect the target cap. Once I got to the last 10 enemies, It didn't feel like I was struggling to keep up with mez output. But it was very obvious I would start to die if I stopped using Spore Burst and Vines since Seeds could not keep up. - TB Spirit Tree is made of something weak (maybe Council Minions?). It just dies whenever anything attacks it. ---------------------------------------------------- Conclusion: Current TB build is kinda at upper "meh" level right now. For a dominator, it honestly feels like I could do better with something else. It needs more love. The current build still feels like a nerf to best control. But I have a couple of suggestions that can easily pad out the nerfs into important, healthy changes to a beloved set. - Seed target cap increase: Everyone saying 16 but honestly even 12 will do wonders. Believe it or not, there are very few groups in this game that have only 10 enemies in it. Haveing that limitation on a cone control power seems abitrary when cones are historically weak in this game. - Spirit Tree buff: I honestly like this change to the power. I needed a Preventative Med set in my build and this fit the bill. Just please make it stronger then a Council Minion. - Carrion Creeper Tuneing: Broken record here but the base damage output needs to be increased. The nerf to proc cascade left a 30% hole that gets a ton bigger the less experienced a player is. Even a slight increase will be felt I am sure. Thanks to anyone who read my stuff! I'm considering if I need to give the Controller same testing treatment but I honestly am not sure if people have been reading and paying attention to testing I have been doing. (This has mainly been for my sanity and to give the changes the best chance I could)

In my opinion, Control does not have a place on a character that can use temp powers or insps. It has even less use on a team where people can just kill the stuff your controlling. That being said; with Adaptive + Sleep added in the update controllers and dominator are only ATs that now have multiple viable options for group lockdown. That is something finally for those ATs to do different then other ATs. Im just not going to use a power that doesnt lockdown the whole group if i have a better option. Pool power are just too good to waste a slot on a "standardized" power like Seeds, 10 tgt. Not a requirement to revert changes. Just an estimation of usefulness

I need to test Vines still personally. But I plan on dropping Seeds from build under these changes. Its not particularly a good or bad thing; its just not good anymore with better options (which as an aside the confusion set bonus not as good as the sleep and hold options) I'm assuming that the power changes were to make Seeds less OP and more inline with other control powers and sets. But in its current form Seeds is weaker then every other option on plant. I can easily drop it for concealment pool. Also agree about creepers. It need slight buff to base damage (look at my test results on one of earlier pages)

Just want to make sure I clarify so I'm sure people understand: Live Version of Seeds is confusing the whole group. When adding the Contagious Confusion and short Recharge, it was very easy to stack the confuse through the mez resistance that the Cimeroran enemies get when they activate Shout of Command. In my opinion, Power in this format can be built with or without Contagious Confusion and still function as a control power. Test Ver 2 Seeds confuses most of the group. But this is an important distinction. With many cimeroran groups having more then 10 enemies to hit, I could randomly die despite using control power in same way. This version forces you to do a pre mez or a follow up mez to be consistent (Vines or Spore Burst). This version of Seeds is also not up each group (even with adaptive recharge) so you really need to have a second AoE mez on reserve for the next group (otherwise I would die). Contagious Confusion was required for me to confuse the group and it would fix the issue most of the time. But procs rate and cone range would limit me and I would randomly die depending on the situation. In my opinion, it can be frustratingly random with how this version of seeds fails. If I were to guess the reduction of target cap on a cone is a dbl headed nerf because your limited on how many targets you can hit anyway with the arc degree and range. Vs the new Mez Patches and Targeted Aoe Mez options are superior to it in everyway now. Kinda no reason to use this power with just the sleep or holds being better. And after I test Vines I expect those 2 will be better and dropping seeds might be an option. Seeds cap just can't be 10 if you want to use it. It needs to be higher then that or reverted to 16.

Some basic Number Crunching for Seed of Confusion! --- Test Parameters: - Confuse Cimeroran groups in first mission of ITF (8x) and wait for all but 1 to kill each other. - Soft cap defense before confuse. - Fold space after first Confuse and continue to use confuse until last enemy is left. - Repeat with 50,52, and 54 enemies (both Test and Live) - Goal is to get Confuse count and Damage Taken values to gauge the effectiveness of the taunt. --- Result: Enemy groups can be confused at or above the 80% threshold to avoid deadly damage from first strike in most cases with Test Build 2. Damage taken ranged from 10-30% more with extended engagements. Opinion: Adaptive Recharge on the power seems to be the right choice for the power. Test Build 2 Seeds is fuctioning well in most senarios and the power does what it needs to do. With one exception: long engagements with large groups or enemies that are resistent to confuse. It stuggles more under this current build of seeds due to the combination of changes. In my opinion, it is slightly below the breakpoint of a "AoE Control" power with its target cap at 10. Suggest adding 2 more targets to target cap, it might be able to confuse resistant boss targets or affect large enough groups of enemies to affectively Control the group. This proposed change does assume that every dominator will use Contagious Confusion since the power cant funtion without it now. Which is also the issue, aince before target cap reduction the power could function as a control power without contagious confusion. Not sure if you wanted to reduce dependence on procs as it is only required now because the target cap is too low for most 8x groups. Again all of these changes were tested using my Dominator. Hope this helps!

I got some Number Crunching for Carrion Creepers!!! ----- Test Parameters: - Dropped 1 Carrion Creeper Patch in a Rikti Enemy Group In the North part of RWZ ( Near the Mothership) - Compared multiple data collections on Live and Test Build 2 against each other (lvl 52s; 53s; 54s with a total of 24 data collection files) - Each group had similar counts of minions, LTs, and bosses ( 3 bosses, 2 LTS etc..) - Stood in each group while at Defense Cap so all damage dealt was ONLY from Creeper Patch to give it best chance of consistent accurate data. - Goal was to look at and compare DPS and Total Damage dealt with one Patch Note: Carrion Creeper patch was on a Dominator with 5 procs and a Max Dysync Acc/Theat/Recharge; t4 Degenerative Radial Interface; t4 Intuition Radial Alpha; t4 Assault Radial Hybrid (passive only didn't activate) ----- Result: About a 20% decrease in damage output ( give or take 3% due to some inherent error in an imperfect test) Limitations: - Testing showed the proc cascade on live DOES seem to increase damage output significantly the more enemies are grouped up in the area. Big enemy groups (Like Council 8x or ITF) will see the difference be higher then 20% but this test can't confirm by how much because of its format. - None of this test takes Controllers in consideration. They should be done with a different test. - Nowhere in this test did I test other powers that contribute damage nor did I test if Mez/Spirit Tree could increase the damage output by increasing survivability of the Creeper Vines - There were no Kin buffs so Creeper was not Damage Capped ( which can influence the findings a bit) Opinion: Might consider a slight boost on the base damage for Creepers after more testing (5% might be good) So it is in an excellent place. However, the test server build 2 is satisfactory and surprised me on how close it was to Live version. Again, power needs some slight tweeks but the spawn rate for creepers seems spot on. Maybe Vines damage is decent with the change? I'm not actually sure yet. Test for later. Hope this Helps!

@macskull Has their been any tank testing 4star mobs with the critter + Aoe damage changes? I suspect the changes are going to affect the ability for them to kill LT mobs. Also Titan Weapons seems to be extra low due to the AoE changes

@ScarySai Good point about resistant enemies! Havnt gotten to that yet. Can say beta version is inconsistent control power for it to have a long cooldown. In certain situations it felt like it was a wasted use of a power. Which is big difference from where it is on live

Quick update on seeds for personal testing: Even with Contagious Confusion proc, 8x groups are not completly being confused. And as I get into target rich environments (ITF comes to mind) the problems seem to be increasing as I cant mez everyone even with the new tools given. Im not sure if it is working like a control set is intended to work. There seems to be a small consensus here with some others who tested (look at quoted) Maybe the target cap needs to be reverted? The recharge and scale changes are fine. I actually just using Vines now to control the groups while seeds off cooldown. But it seems like im taking more damage. Im assuming Confuse is probably been better for "controlling" the group because the enemies kill a few of the minions? In current form its almost like i should just drop it for the new sleep buff because it isnt consistent enough

Even though this might be true in some cases. There has been plenty of people like myself who have gone to the Beta server and tested this. I could provide parses if you need but in short the proc rate on the Carrion Creeper (although a bug) was basically fixing the powers damage. Even though this is a bug in the game; the power without the bug is just meh. Add on the fact that it spawns more Creepers the more you kill enemies. The power just can't fuction the same way with these changes. I have my doubts fixing the spawn bug will fix the issue. Without the proc bug, the base damage on Creepers was balanced for Controller damage. Which is unacceptably low. Please Plant users thumbs up if you agree: If your going to nerf the Carrion Creepers proc rate then a buff to the power needs to be added to compensate it. Otherwise expect people will not use the power or will drop the set alltogether.

@arcane Sorry didnt mean to be confusing. The point i was trying to make is that Seeds and Creepers were hit with a Heavy Handed nerf without any true balance to them. And it comes to a set that wasnt abused or over represented. I believe there should be a healthy medium somewhere with this nerf if it needs to happen. Seeds keep the target cap it had. Creepers get a boost to base damage. Its current iteration feels weak and it doesnt need to be that way. If a set like plant can be hit with a nerf like this then everyone should consider that their favorite character will get nerfs like this too in the future. (This is why nerfs are frowned on in PVE games)

Actually yeah this is very true. Where are all the " I hate the meta" people in all of this? Even with all the buffs and no change to seeds or Creepers this will not be meta. So What is the point of this? You are going to push people to play their Fire / Fire Blaster not a Controller or Dom. GREAT way to make people go meta since there is now another controller that doesn't do any damage.