Just how effective are multiple Chance for Build-Up procs?

[Story Archer]

1 hour ago, Camel said:

Heyo!

I'll try to touch on some things here as best as I can. I try to lean a bit defensively myself, but I'm more of a 'hybrid' build maker for most of my general content characters. Focusing on HP, damage procs, recharge, defense, etc. I try not to gimp any of those aspects while increasing the others. Specifically with my Claws/Bio Scrapper, I have Force Feedback +recharge procs going off so often that my Shadow Meld only has a 7 or 8 second downtime IIRC. So I rely heavily on cycling Shadow Meld along with all the Bio +absorb/regen goodies. 

As far as our builds are concerned, it looks like @SomeGuy was focusing purely on ST DPS numbers and/or Pylon test times specifically, I don't want to speak for them but the build is heavily catered for pure ST DPS. Mine is a 'hybrid' that focuses on all aspects of the build, not prioritizing any one part of it while also not significantly gimping another part of it.

In regard to Genetic Contamination, it's free damage and does -damage to enemies around you. It's incredible. Never skip it, never skimp on slots. I like putting the Superior Avalanche in there because I like to build for melee defense in a lot of instances, the chance for knockdown proc is handy at times too. I don't really rely on the -damage aspect, I also rarely solo so my experiences may vary from yours. My 'alpha strike' mitigator is Shadow Meld, use it every chance you get before opening on mobs and you will notice it substantially.

 Also, Spring Attack isn't bad, per say, but I would wholeheartedly recommend replacing it with Shockwave. FU -> Spin -> Shockwave, with proper positioning, is absolutely insane. FU - Spin -> Eviscerate isn't bad. But the benefit of replacing Shockwave with Eviscerate is that it; hits more targets, can proc Force Feedback and knocks enemies down. I don't open with it typically but it can be used to help with alpha strikes, no doubt. I've never stuck with Eviscerate long term and I probably never will. I tried respeccing into it once, proc bombing it and trying to time it with the Critical Strikes proc... it just didn't feel nearly as good as it did with Shockwave. Another benefit with shockwave is that it does really respectable damage in ST chains too, especially when it's proc bombed and buffed by Critical Strikes. it's disgustingly good when fighting the computer in the ITF when the mobs from up top are pulled down. Obviously this is all personal preference, but with proper positioning, you will out perform any build with Eviscerate. 

Speaking on attack chains, Slash is great, especially if you can fit the -res Achilles Heel proc in it. Helps soften up targets when cycling through your ST attack chain. Sort of all over the place here lol, but I took Ageless to increase my recovery and for the recharge buff. I haven't looked in Mids, did I take the one that offers debuff resistance? Both are pretty good on Bio, but I meant to take the one that increases recovery. I spam attacks so frequently that sometimes I need the 'infinite' endurance it offers.

I did take Maneuvers for the LoTG +7.5, as well as the teaming aspect. On a full team, I'd say at least 3 of us have the Leadership pool, almost 100% of the time. Those little buffs add up... but I also pretty much follow that same formula on practically every character. Speed, Leaping, Fighting and Leadership pools are standard on 80% of my characters or more, it's just what I'm comfortable with.  

Anything I missed? 😛

 

No, I don't think so - and I really appreciate you taking the time to respond in such detail. One of the things I try to figure out when looking at different builds is which decisions were made as a result of personal play style and which as a result of one decision being objectively better than the other.

 

Again, thanks for sharing your build and the reasoning behind the choices you made. It's offered a great deal of insight.

[SomeGuy]

21 hours ago, Story Archer said:

 

 

Alright, roping you two into this same reply. I'm posting the most updated build I'm currently using below, and I'm going to have some questions specific to the builds you guys are using in comparison to my own - not necessarily saying that one is better than the other, just pointing out my reasoning for what I did so that you can tell what I'm missing, if anything. Note: the two empty IO slots will have FF +Rech procs in them, I just leave them out to keep them from skewing my recharge info.

[Ladyshrike II].mbd 44.43 kB · 6 downloads

 

So first off, the defensive side of things. I've been accused of chasing defensive numbers on my Scrappers a little too much, and I'm fine with that so long as I'm not sacrificing any obviously greater benefits elsewhere. I notice that my defenses are considerably higher than either of yours, specifically with regards to E/N/F/C (46.2% for me vs. 34.1% for Camel and 31.8% for SomeGuy). We're pretty even everywhere else except for SomeGuy's 50% S/L Res, which Camel and I basically have soft-capped at around 75%. I can't find any other aspects of the build where I'm lagging (like recharge or offensive output), so I'm assuming that's all good? I tend to value defense very highly because of its ability to mitigate debuffs and other secondary effects, but since Bio has no DDR, I don't want to lean too heavily on it. Camel, I noticed that you took the Ageless Incarnate - was that why, or do you just like the additional Recharge?

 

Next, Genetic Contamination. I see that both of you took it, though you did different things with the slotting. I chose to use that power slot and those enhancement slots on Spring Attack instead. My reasoning was that 1) the damage from one Spring attack is the equivalent of about 10-12 ticks from Genetic Contamination (closer to 15 if I make that last slot a damage proc), but I get the benefit all at once, and I get it every 35-40 seconds instead of spread out over 1-2 minutes, and 2) the initial KB helped me avoid the threat of alpha strikes whenever I engaged a new mob which could jumpstart a cascading defensive collapse. I know that GC grants a damage debuff against your foes in addition to its damage - how noticeable is that in terms of your survivability?

 

You both took Maneuvers - was that primarily so that you could slot another LotG +Rech IO? Between Maneuvers and GC, your endurance totals are notably ahead of mine. Are you noticing any issues with that, or does Parasitic Aura perform so well that its not a problem?

 

I think you guys also both took Shockwave. I've kind of avoided that power as I'm pretty happy with my attack chain as it is. For single targets its just FU -> Focus -> Eviscerate and for groups its FU -> Spin -> Eviscerate. Those chains really don't have any gaps, and just throw in Moonbeam whenever it comes up in either instance. I'm guessing that you took and use Shockwave in the same way that I use Spring Attack, as an opener to help mitigate alpha strikes?

 

I can't help but notice the HUGE Psi hole we all have in our defenses. Has that ever actually been an issue for either of you guys?

 

Is there anything obvious in the build that I linked that I may have overlooked or might not properly understand when it comes to slotting?

 

Thanks again for your insights!

 

 

 

lol I don't think I should have looked at this sans caffeine 😄

 

And for some clarification, none of my builds are ST or pylon only. None of them. If I can't solo TF/SFs with a build, I take it to the drawing board or completely gut that character (ever since the tanker changes, I've gutted all of my non-farming brutes for example). I'm a min/maxer also. Something to consider when looking at my builds. If unsure what that can mean...I get very frustrated playing DnD with people. Falling asleep, or reading a book, during a DnD session is very common for me. It's the norm for me to know a person's character's abilities more then the person playing said character when it comes to combat situations. Our DM gave up trying to balance combat encounters for the whole group because of me. Also, Paladins are super OP in DnD.

 

Defense: I gave up trying to get to softcap with certain armor sets a very long time ago (before the HC servers were a thing). I have to sacrifice way to much of what I value in my builds. With most armor sets that aren't defense based, I go the Shadow Meld route. Gives me a litle bit longer then a buildup duration to blow a mob up. With it's default slot I just slap a LOTG recharge in it and it gives a VERY big chunk of +DEF to all. If I'm solo, I get a fairly steady stream of Insp if I need them. Teamed? There is a lot of +DEF flying around. Resistance? Similar thought process as defense for me. And TBH, I've played more then a few resistance capped scrappers and have never been personally impressed after playing resistance capped tankers/brutes. For example, with my Bio builds, Tough is just a set mule to take a +DEF to call proc. I don't even run the power. Also, my first 50 was a claws/regen so I am VERY fast to GTFO of a bad situation, or use LOS. Lots of little things. In a nutshell, the def/res thing doesn't affect me at all. And if it did? I'd edit my builds. If you're dead, you do 0 DPS.

 

Genetic Contamination: this seems like a head scratcher for someone to skip. It's almost free DPS for ST and AOE (all of the PBAoE auras have a really good end/s for the amount of damage they do). As for it's damage comparison VS Spring Attack? That's an observation I never considered. I played around with SA just a little and didn't find it fun enough for me to use. Not to mention SA can only be used (normally) once per mob whereas GC is ALWAYS on and doing damage. Yeah, GC might not have the frontloaded boom that SA has, but it's damage over time is going to be more by a noticeable amount. As for the damage debuff GC provides? Oh, I'm sure it's useful. I personally just don't notice it. Personally, I just don't see the point of skipping Genetic Contamination, or ANY PBAoE for that matter. Your logic for helping it mitigate Alphas is sound as heck though. I can NOT debate that at all. Although I can say that Shockwave is cheaper and is up every few seconds and mitigates via soft CC, like Spring Attack, the entire fight...

 

Maneuvers: I take it on almost alllllll of my builds. It does take another LOTG and the +DEF benefit is to good. As for end? I normally take Ageless Recovery. And if I exemp down, I normally don't have to run Maneuvers anyways, and if I do, Recovery Serums are dirt cheap and VERY good at what they do. Basically, end is not an issue if PA is down or not, for my playstyle. 

 

Shockwave: This power is way better then it used to be simply due to the KB-KD conversion IO it can take. Shockwave and Eviscerate used to be the two powers I always skipped in Claws, now Shockwave is mandatory for me to take. I still never take Eviscerate. Evis simply does not justify how long it roots you so you can die during the animation. I use SW in my ST and AOE rotation. It does really similar DPA to Strike (which I don't use, I only have it for set mule reasons). It also does soft-CC to a target/s via KD and it can take another -RES proc. It's a VERY versatile power. So basically, in a ST situation VS something that is susceptible to KD, between SW and Focus, you can keep whatever on it's butt until it gives you XP.  It can also mitigate damage VS a whole mob via it's soft CC. Really good power.  And it's ranged.

 

Psi: Meh. Just a thing that is uncommon enough I don't worry about it. When it comes up? I just purple candy up and nuke stuff. 

 

Attack Chain: Not sure if this is something you specifically asked about. I'm unsure so I'll just list it anyways.

 

ST: FU - Snipe - Focus - Slash - FU - Focus - Slash - Shockwave

AOE: FU - Spin - Shockwave

 

Mix of ST and AOE: FU - Spin - Focus (shockwave if I need soft-CC to mitigate incoming damage).

 

As for obvious stuff? I personally build very different from most so if someone does something drastically different I just chalk it up to preference and playstyle. 

 

Edited March 12 by SomeGuy

[Story Archer]

On 3/12/2025 at 2:33 PM, SomeGuy said:

 

lol I don't think I should have looked at this sans caffeine 😄

 

And for some clarification, none of my builds are ST or pylon only. None of them. If I can't solo TF/SFs with a build, I take it to the drawing board or completely gut that character (ever since the tanker changes, I've gutted all of my non-farming brutes for example). I'm a min/maxer also. Something to consider when looking at my builds. If unsure what that can mean...I get very frustrated playing DnD with people. Falling asleep, or reading a book, during a DnD session is very common for me. It's the norm for me to know a person's character's abilities more then the person playing said character when it comes to combat situations. Our DM gave up trying to balance combat encounters for the whole group because of me. Also, Paladins are super OP in DnD.

 

Defense: I gave up trying to get to softcap with certain armor sets a very long time ago (before the HC servers were a thing). I have to sacrifice way to much of what I value in my builds. With most armor sets that aren't defense based, I go the Shadow Meld route. Gives me a litle bit longer then a buildup duration to blow a mob up. With it's default slot I just slap a LOTG recharge in it and it gives a VERY big chunk of +DEF to all. If I'm solo, I get a fairly steady stream of Insp if I need them. Teamed? There is a lot of +DEF flying around. Resistance? Similar thought process as defense for me. And TBH, I've played more then a few resistance capped scrappers and have never been personally impressed after playing resistance capped tankers/brutes. For example, with my Bio builds, Tough is just a set mule to take a +DEF to call proc. I don't even run the power. Also, my first 50 was a claws/regen so I am VERY fast to GTFO of a bad situation, or use LOS. Lots of little things. In a nutshell, the def/res thing doesn't affect me at all. And if it did? I'd edit my builds. If you're dead, you do 0 DPS.

 

Genetic Contamination: this seems like a head scratcher for someone to skip. It's almost free DPS for ST and AOE (all of the PBAoE auras have a really good end/s for the amount of damage they do). As for it's damage comparison VS Spring Attack? That's an observation I never considered. I played around with SA just a little and didn't find it fun enough for me to use. Not to mention SA can only be used (normally) once per mob whereas GC is ALWAYS on and doing damage. Yeah, GC might not have the frontloaded boom that SA has, but it's damage over time is going to be more by a noticeable amount. As for the damage debuff GC provides? Oh, I'm sure it's useful. I personally just don't notice it. Personally, I just don't see the point of skipping Genetic Contamination, or ANY PBAoE for that matter. Your logic for helping it mitigate Alphas is sound as heck though. I can NOT debate that at all. Although I can say that Shockwave is cheaper and is up every few seconds and mitigates via soft CC, like Spring Attack, the entire fight...

 

Maneuvers: I take it on almost alllllll of my builds. It does take another LOTG and the +DEF benefit is to good. As for end? I normally take Ageless Recovery. And if I exemp down, I normally don't have to run Maneuvers anyways, and if I do, Recovery Serums are dirt cheap and VERY good at what they do. Basically, end is not an issue if PA is down or not, for my playstyle. 

 

Shockwave: This power is way better then it used to be simply due to the KB-KD conversion IO it can take. Shockwave and Eviscerate used to be the two powers I always skipped in Claws, now Shockwave is mandatory for me to take. I still never take Eviscerate. Evis simply does not justify how long it roots you so you can die during the animation. I use SW in my ST and AOE rotation. It does really similar DPA to Strike (which I don't use, I only have it for set mule reasons). It also does soft-CC to a target/s via KD and it can take another -RES proc. It's a VERY versatile power. So basically, in a ST situation VS something that is susceptible to KD, between SW and Focus, you can keep whatever on it's butt until it gives you XP.  It can also mitigate damage VS a whole mob via it's soft CC. Really good power.  And it's ranged.

 

Psi: Meh. Just a thing that is uncommon enough I don't worry about it. When it comes up? I just purple candy up and nuke stuff. 

 

Attack Chain: Not sure if this is something you specifically asked about. I'm unsure so I'll just list it anyways.

 

ST: FU - Snipe - Focus - Slash - FU - Focus - Slash - Shockwave

AOE: FU - Spin - Shockwave

 

Mix of ST and AOE: FU - Spin - Focus (shockwave if I need soft-CC to mitigate incoming damage).

 

As for obvious stuff? I personally build very different from most so if someone does something drastically different I just chalk it up to preference and playstyle. 

 

 

Another great and much-appreciated response!

 

[EDIT: I took your thoughts and some of the ones offered by others and went through the build again, managing to slot both Genetic Contamination and Spring Attack, while keeping Shadow Meld and shifting my Destiny Incarnate over to Ageless Radial... Reduced Moonbeam, though not significantly numbers-wise and added Maneuvers. Altogether, she seems to be giving me the best of both worlds now and, I gotta say, after one night of running her, she bangs like no Scrapper I've run before. Loving her!  

 

[Ladyshrike].mbd

 

Back to the original response...]

 

A couple of quick things:

 

First off, I'm glad you're an unabashed min/maxer. That can make speculative conversations or debates about the effectiveness of going one route over another much easier and more productive as, like me, you're always looking for anything that can give you a reasonable edge even if you weren't necessarily the one who came up with it (rather than taking differing perspectives personally). I can't tell you how many times I was sure that I had a build locked up and someone just came out of the blue with an approach I had never even considered before.

 

I'd suggest that you give Spring Attack another serious look, even though your current build doesn't have you taking a travel power at all. Putting aside it's ability to mitigate an alpha (or simply additional damage when using it mid-fight) or its occasional utility to simply get into a particular spot, let's look at it in comparison to Genetic Contamination from a purely damage angle. With everything else in our two builds being equal (1x FU, same crit chances, same Incarnates active, etc.), GC as you have it slotted looks like it deals about 47 points of damage per tick on average and ticks every 10 seconds, so let's say 282 dpm (47 x 6). By comparison, Spring Attack as I have it slotted deals an average of 476 points damage per pop and can be used every 40 seconds or so. That works out to 714 dpm, using it three times every two minutes, except that it's even better than that because all of its damage is front-loaded:

 

• after 10 seconds GC has done 94 damage while SA has done 476
• after 50 seconds, GC has done 235 damage while SA has done 952
• after 90 seconds GC has done 423 damage while SA has done 1,437...

 

Plus SA has the advantage of a 15' radius (as opposed to GC's 8' radius), though - its worth mentioning - it does lack the DMG debuff that GC provides, which is legit.

 

Personally, I'd like to take Genetic Contamination if I could - so much so that I'm actually considering giving up Moonbeam for it, since my attack chain is already pretty much seamless without it. The only reasons I haven't is that it would also eliminate Shadow Meld as an option and I worry it'd drop my single target damage a bit too much (especially considering how heavily resisted Lethal is).

 

Speaking of Shadow Meld, on the surface it seems like a great power, and I haven't used it enough yet to truly decide if its as much of a no-brainer as I once thought. The pro's are obvious, but consider the con's: 1) I already have Spring Attack as my opener, so I don't need it for that, 2) I'm taking Barrier as my Destiny Incarnate, I've already got a longer lasting more effective option that essentially serves the same purpose, and 3) that 3 second activation time can be a little frustrating in some of situations. With most of my defenses already pretty high, and the Barrier Core Incarnate to boot, I'm not sure I'm getting that much out of it except as a LotG mule. On the flip side, I'm a big fan of the Ageless Destiny - especially with Bio lacking DDR - so if I were to decide to swap over to it, that might go a long way towards making Shadow Meld more integral to the build.

 

I don't like Shockwave. I've tried to like it and I just don't. I think it's one of those things that comes down to playstyle. I don't generally like cones, I don't like having to take the time every time to reposition myself to use it (and then to reposition myself back to use Spin), I don't like having to waste an enhancement slot that could be getting me +10% Rech or a FF proc for a KB/KD converter, and I've already got my opener with Spring Attack. Just gotta be a pass for me there. On the flip side, there's Eviscerate. I'm with you on the annoyance of being rooted for its animation, but it's one I've learned to live with for my most consistently damaging power - and I can promise you it takes less time than moving away, activating Shockwave and then moving back. It's integral to both my single-target and AoE attack chains, and it's increased ability to potentially crit multiple foes really appeals to me. 

 

My two attack chains are very tight. Without ever getting a bump from the FF proc in Focus, they look like this:

• Single Target: FU -> Focus -> Eviscerate. There's a half-second gap in there for me to fire off whatever I might need (Ablative Carapace, DNA Siphon, Parasitic Aura, Hasten, Moonbeam, an Incarnate, whatever) if and when I need it, but all three repeat every 5 seconds if I don't interrupt them.
• AoE: FU -> Spin -> Eviscerate. These three repeat every 5.5 seconds if I don't interrupt them, with no gap in the chain whatsoever.

I find that keeping my attack chain as tight and efficient as possible frees up at least one power selection and numerous enhancement slots that can be used elsewhere. I keep Strike in the tray that I reserve for exemp'ing down and that's the only time I use it.

 

BTW - do I have something set wrong, or does MID's not really account for the variations of the different adaptations. When I toggle on 'Offensive Adaptation' for instance, it reflects a ToHit and damage boost but nothing moves on my defense or resistance totals. For that matter, Super Jump getting toggled on and off doesn't move the needle at all when it comes to my Jump height or speed. Bug or just user error?

 

Thanks again for your response above and any future thoughts. It's all been very helpful.

 

Edited March 14 by Story Archer

[Due Regard]

33 minutes ago, Story Archer said:

If you skip a Patron Pool you can grab a fifth Power Pool, can't you? Mid's doesn't want to allow it but I could have sworn I heard that somewhere.

 

Nope, 4 Power Pools, 1 Epic/Ancillary/Patron Pool.