JusticeEagle

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These questions have already been addressed early on in the thread. This actually has not been specifically addressed. Both quotes you put in were still fairly ambiguous. We need a clear cut yes or no on this, because, as others have said, the def crash can be removed without rolling back the bug fix. And no, this would not be a good solution, as is has the exact same problems with breaking the set the def penalty has, which is to make it impossible to really use rage while tanking, for the damage set that is only available to tanking classes. Castle left the Def crash bypassable, on purpose, because in order for SS to be on par with other melee sets, you need to be able to use Rage constantly. Anything that makes so you can't do that makes SS underperform compared to other sets. Just removing the def crash would be the best solution, as Rage would essentially function as it did on live. The Dmg and End crashes are more than enough downside, because even with perma-rage SS becomes a solid set, but it's by no means the best. Without it, it's severly broken.

This appears to have gotten lost in the shuffle. I would ask people to keep it in mind - the fix isn't going away, so how can Rage/SS as a whole be made better, in your opinion? A little clarification on this would be helpful. So as others have pointed out, the Def crash can be completely removed without affecting the bug fix, restoring SS to where it was on live for all intents and purposes. So are you saying that just the bug fix won't be rolled back, but getting rid of the Def crash is a viable option, or that the Def crash is staying, and you want other solutions completely?

Come on everyone, I am easily one of the most vocal about fixing Rage, but the HC team isn't trying to mess with us, nor are they being "heavy handed" or anything else. They are volunteering their time and money so we can play CoH, let's not forget that.

Um, no, this is not a valid argument. As I've said in this thread a number of times, you can't look at Rage as some standalone power. the powerset must be taken as a whole compared to other powersets. The rest of SS is underperforming, and perma-rage brings it up to par with other powersets. Without perma-rage available, the set is completely broken.

Just to be clear, I favor rolling back the change, as it was more fun with rage having no def crash. But to be pointed, people should use arguments to support positions that are viable. 1. Case for change 2. Proposed solution 3. Supporting evidence 4. Syllogistic reasoning. Where most people run afoul of proper persuasion is 4. Syllogistic reasoning. So, I want the change rolled back and people need to argue from the perspective of syllogism to properly persuade others. '' I've actually done this. Essentially, I've stated: All melee damage powersets should be comparable The def crash not being avoidable like it was on live makes SS a severely underperforming set vs. others Rage needs the def crash removed/made avoidable But cognitive dissonance being what it is, some people are trying avoid or ignore this.

Issue 24 change, not issue 25 change. So yes, it was on Live (The beta server counts). No, it wasn't. Changes that were tested, but purposely not implemented, weren't really on live. There is a reason Castle purposely left the Def crash avoidable, and that was not to break the powerset, like it is currently.

Must be some new definition of hyperbole that means factual. SS is a subpar set without perma-rage. It's the perma-rage is OP statements that are hyperbole. As I have already said, you can't look at Rage alone as if you can take it as a standalone power, and try to make some sort of argument justifying a nerf that was purposely left bypassable on live because it break the set. It's not a legitimate argument. SS has to be looked at as a whole, and the attacks in SS are subpar compared to other sets. Perma-rage makes up for that, and it was intended to. It all balances out to make a set that ends up, with perma-rage and no defense crash, to be solid but not outstanding. Without perma-rage able to be run, SS is a broken set.

No, as has been said on this thread many times, this was never on live. It was in test for a short time, but was purposely never implemented. When Castle made the Dmg and End crashes unavoidable, he purposely left in the ability to bypass the Def crash. And there is no reason to have to be able to use two purps every two minutes (as you can only buy the small ones, so they are the only ones you can be certain to have reliably) just to run the powerset as it is supposed to be run. Even with Perma-rage able to be used, which it can't right now since in high-level content that kind of def crash can be insta-death, SS is still a middle of the road set. Without it, it is completely broken. There is no good reason not to fix this.

Actually.. it was. It was only when you refreshed Rage before it expired that you could avoid the -Def. I think he meant the unavoidable def crash was never on live. And to be fair, Rage was made to be easily perm-able, and the Dmg and End crashes were changed to be unavoidable while the def crash specifically was not.

The sets are meant to be balanced around SO enhancements, on live it was always that way from my understanding. And? I was responding to those that said SS never gets mentioned as the strongest and I just showed that it can be the strongest in certain cases. I never said it should be changed. I made suggestions on how to balance if it is required to remove Rage but also made it clear I would much rather just see them remove the defense debuff from the rage crash. Not really. Even fully IOed out, with perma-rage available, SS is really going to still be a middle of the pack set, especially when you remember how much S/L resistance there is in high-level content.

I clipped that part because the post would have been insane long otherwise. That's what the ellipsis means, there was more to this, but I wanted to include the part I felt this most needed for context. That being said, I have no problem answering it. Somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 of your rage, and a serious hit to your ability to damage, is more than enough for balance. And of course, the more sex you have, the more endurance you will lose, Now it's my turn. I noticed you ignored the part where I discussed SS is supposed to have perma-rage. That's the way it was intended. The second completely broken without it, and yet you can't normally in high-level content, where it is needed most. And the defense part of the crash was still bypassable in live. So why do you think it's necessary to cripple a tank's ability to tank in high-level content just to make this set perform on par with other sets that do not have those serious drawbacks? And if you are going say using Inspirations it somehow a solution, open to puke feel it would be okay to balance other power steps around inspirations? In order: 1/4 to 1/3 of your Rage? Excuse me? Rage has a 120-second duration. It has a 10-second crash. That is 1/12. If you're referring to Endurance in that portion, it's 25%. No more, no less. And that 25% is ONE TENTH the END the power would cost across its duration if paid as a toggle. No, 10 seconds of doing no damage is NOT enough to balance out that much END cost being waved off. [irst, I used your numbers for that. 30 out of 115 is inching closer to 1/3. Second, you cannot keep talking about Rage as some stand-alone power. It doesn't matter what this move would cost as a toggle in other power sets, because the attacks in SS are far less damaging than other power sets. I made this point already, and you keep trying to ignore it. But this point is not going away, because it is Central to the issue. Again, yes you did ignore it, because you keep trying to dodge around the fact that rage makes SS comprable to other sets when there is no defense crash. Again, the defense crash was still bypassable, it was the damage and the end crashes that were no longer bypassable. There is no reason to make SS worse than it was in live. Again, trying to to say What If This Were a toggle, or what if this were in another set, are not legitimate arguments. SS has to be looked at as a whole. And perma Rage only means that it will be comprable to other sets when there is no defense crash. SS, as I said, when working as intended in live, made the defense crash bypassable. There is no reason it shouldn't be here. Your case for using Inspirations for very specific mobs does not hold up. That is nothing like balancing a power to work as intended around using Inspirations every 2 minutes. I noticed you can't point to any other power set where that is the case. In high-level content where there are timers or ambushes or other challenges, you don't always have the luxury to stop an entire trial because your power set is broken now. There is no good reason to keep this defense crash. SS it's not such an amazing set that it needs some kind of crippling draw back other powersets don't have. Again, it should perform on par with other sets, which it currently does not. That is 100% reasonable

I clipped that part because the post would have been insane long otherwise. That's what the ellipsis means, there was more to this, but I wanted to include the part I felt this most needed for context. That being said, I have no problem answering it. Somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 of your end, and a serious hit to your ability to damage, is more than enough for balance. And of course, the more stacks you have, the more endurance you will lose. And don't forget the other major drawback to rage, which is the underperforming ability of the entire rest of the set without it. Again, you can't keep talking about Rage as a standalone ability. All the powers in a given set are intended to work together, and when taken together with perma-rage, and honestly no crash, SS is a balanced set Now it's my turn. I noticed you ignored the part where I discussed SS is supposed to have perma-rage. That's the way it was intended. The set is completely broken without it, and yet you can't use it normally in high-level content, where it is needed most. And the defense part of the crash was still bypassable in live. So why do you think it's necessary to cripple a tank's ability to tank in high-level content just to have the dmage on this set perform on par with other sets that do not have those serious drawbacks? And if you are going say using Inspirations it somehow a solution, do you feel it would be okay to balance other powersets around inspirations? I answered you, so please answer my questions.

Then maybe it's time to adjust some of the numbers in the SS powerpool and, in return, rage gets a downtune to be a regular build-up. This would be a reasonable solution.

Perma rage already had a downside, the damage and endurance crashes. But, as I recall, the ability to bypass the defense crash was purposely left in by Castle after he removed the ability to bypass the damage and endurance crashes, because the defense crash breaks the power, resulting in the situation we see now where SS is gimped. Rage is not a standalone power you can take for any melee set. It's built the way it is to work with SS, which is an underperforming set otherwise. Even with perma rage, SS is still not the best set, but at least it's comprable to other sets. There's no reason that rage can't be fixed so that works the same way that it did on live. Constantly popping Inspirations every two minutes is not an answer. we can't balance a power set around having an unlimited supply of a certain inspiration. That wouldn't be a viable answer for other sets, and it's not one here. Unstoppable was mentioned as a similar situation, but it isn't. Having played an Inv/ SS tank since I1, the solution ended up being just don't take Unstoppable, because the crash made it a worthless power. Now that's fine, because invuln is still a very viable set without it. But SS is a completely different animal, the defense crash means you pretty much can't use rage in high-level content if you are tanking, and without rage SS is completely broken. The defense crash just needs to be removed, plain and simple. SS still won't be the best set after that, but at least it will be on par with other sets.

Do you ever read your own posts? Holy shit, I've never seen an argument that comes across so passive-aggressive in my life. I don't want to answer your question because I don't want to answer your question. I don't need a reason or hidden agenda to do so. I just refuse to answer it. You are not entitled to an answer, just as you are not entitled to have permanent build-up with no drawbacks. Lol, it's not that you won't answer it, it's that you can't, and your posts are getting less and less coherent because of it. But that's okay, keep frothing at the mouth. I honestly don't care. My only goal here is to get rage fixed, because it's broken currently. And one of the best pieces of evidence demonstrating that is you literally saying that people need to use inspirations to play the power set normally. Again, if this is okay for SS, why wouldn't it be okay to change other sets to be balanced around having a certain type of inspiration available at all times? It's a fair question.

This is not a question that anyone has ever entertained or tried to entertain, so I won't entertain it. The fact that you aren't able to answer this simple and fair question tells us everything we need to know. No power set should need two inspirations every two minutes just to function normally. In fact, you can't seem to answer any of my points. You can't argue that rage is ok the way it is, so when super strength underperforms, your answer is just "deal with it". I have a better idea, fix it. Make it comparable other sets. Turns out that is possible. :) I can't fathom your reason for wanting to keep rage broken, because fixing it wouldn't impact you in any real way, but it definitely needs to be fixed. All that being said, I do appreciate you helping me make my point, however unintentional that was. No other set needs insps to function normally, so I do appreciate the fact that somebody who wants to keep rage broken is forced to admit that.

I can't think of any scenario where having permanent Build Up with no significant drawbacks is 'balanced'. The 10 seconds of no damage and reduced defense/endurance once in a while is the significant drawback to having multiple stacks of +80% damage and +20% to-hit indefinitely. If you absolutely cannot stand having -20% defense for 10 seconds, then pop a purple insp before the crash and ride through it. My Bane survives almost exclusively because of orange insps and the occasional purple when his defense is debuffed. It's literally why they exist -- to give you a situational edge where you need it. Rage is fine as it is, no change necessary. You need to read what I already posted. Without being able to use rage, SS becomes a subpar set. And you never answered my question, how about we balance other power sets around using insps? Insps are supposed to be for extraordinary circumstances, like tanking Recluse before the red Tower goes down, not so you can run your set as intended under normal circumstances, Rage is broken and needs to be changed

Hold up, you can't just compare those two powers and then try to say that SS is suddenly OP if the rage crash doesn't kill you. You need to look at the sets as a whole. Compared to most other sets, without rage SS underperforms, and in high-level content there's a lot of s/l resistance set other power sets don't have to worry about. The defense crash needs to be removed for SS to be a set that is just on par with other melee sets. That is not close to what I said. Single rage yes it is on par with other sets. When you get double rage going on high recharge builds (my ss fire brute did this with 1 recharge IO) then things shift heavily in favor of SS. Personally I would like to see the Defensive debuff tossed and call it a day but if something had to be changed that would not punnish one type of build yet still discourage double stacking the suggestion I gave would accomplish that. Does it have to be the numbers I gave? No it could be tested and adjusted as needed. Sorry, I quoted the wrong person I'm on my phone right now at the gym, posting between sets

Hold up, you can't just compare those two powers and then try to say that SS is suddenly OP if the rage crash doesn't kill you. You need to look at the sets as a whole. Compared to most other sets, without rage SS underperforms, and in high-level content there's a lot of s/l resistance set other power sets don't have to worry about. The defense crash needs to be removed for SS to be a set that is just on par with other melee sets.

This is incorrect. I can rage crash and still footstomp, which means I can still knockdown nearly the entire mob. And if they are getting up, they aren't wailing on me. So it is incorrect to play like you're helpless because of no damage, you're not helpless, just not doing what you think you should do. This is what's incorrect. Many of the mobs that are going to be most dangerous will also have at least some kd protection. And the end crash means you may not be able to Footstomp anyway, even if they are vulnerable to knockdown. You sound like a brute player not a tank player. Two different things. As a tank player, I can tell you I have no problems knocking anything shy of an AV from it's feet. And the End crash never runs me dry. Drops me to a little less than half sometimes, but never dry. No, I'm a tank player, and a pretty good one from what people who've grouped with me have said. Of course, that's neither here nor there, as none of that changes what I've said. There's simply no need for a def crash in Rage, as it makes the power unusable in high-level content. The dmg and end crashes are more than enough for balance. Rage pretty much just brings SS up to par with the other melee sets, and without it SS underperforms.

I think straight up removing it would have to come with some other downside. The thing we want to avoid is it becoming a "just set it on auto and forget about it" power, as that runs counter to the intent of both the original design and Castle's redesign of it. Even removing the damage penalty (due to the mentioned smashing resist issues) isn't out of the question if we can come up with some kind of alternative mechanic. I think the damage and end crash alone are going to prevent that from occurring. The last thing I want to do is suddenly have all my toggles drop, but while punishing I can still mind that. The def crash means if I am tanking, Rage now becomes a useless power in high level content, because I put the rest of the team in danger by suddenly not being unable to tank anymore.

This is incorrect. I can rage crash and still footstomp, which means I can still knockdown nearly the entire mob. And if they are getting up, they aren't wailing on me. So it is incorrect to play like you're helpless because of no damage, you're not helpless, just not doing what you think you should do. This is what's incorrect. Many of the mobs that are going to be most dangerous will also have at least some kd protection. And the end crash means you may not be able to Footstomp anyway, even if they are vulnerable to knockdown.

Don't forget that SS is kind of built around Rage, and becomes a subpar set now that it's broken.

This crash makes Rage pretty much unusable in any endgame content, as you can't be tanking multiple bosses and/or AVs, and suddenly have your Def crash. It's gotten to the point where Rage is really only usable when quickly trying to clear easy missions. Honestly, I don't see the need for an end crash either. Rage isn't powerful enough to warrant it, but right now using it in most high level content is actually an active detriment.