Psi-bolt
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Posts posted by Psi-bolt
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39 minutes ago, Rudra said:
If the regeneration cap is a factor of the base regeneration, then forget the math. Every 12 seconds the Tanker would heal 125% of max HP and the Scrapper would heal 150% of max HP, so fully healed every 12 seconds unless dead.
If the regeneration cap is the rate at which the tics are applied? The Scrapper would heal 5% of max HP (120.4759125 HP) every 0.4 seconds, so would be fully healed in 8 seconds. While the Tanker would heal 5% of max HP (176.698005 HP) every 0.48 seconds, so would be fully healed in 9.6 seconds.
(Edit again: If you want it as a per second thing? Scrappers: 301.18978125 HP/s Tankers: 368.12084375 HP/s )
Now, I'm fairly certain I'm doing this wrong, but without further explanation of how the caps and base work, it's what I came up with.
(Edit: Bear in mind, this is strictly with both ATs at HP caps and regeneration caps.)
Regeneration buffs are based on your base regeneration which is 25% of your max health per minute.
So if you have a 100% regeneration buff, you now regenerate 50% of your max health per minute.
Regen has about 450% enhanced regeneration buffs active at all times, which means a Regen player is regenerating 137.5% (base +buffs) of their health per minute also counting Health. Enhanced Instant healing ups that to 387.5% while it's active. Instant healing enhanced is about a 1000% regeneration buff which is the equivalent of 2.5x your max health per minute.
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1 hour ago, kelika2 said:
we all eventually found out this game is still balanced around SOs and no changes to regen will ever happen because regen is a god in only SOs or something
Yes, this is true. I debated long and hard before posting this thread because the futility of seeking buffs for a set nerfed 18 years ago seems futile, but I had to get it out on paper.
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Ever since this thread:
I have been thinking about what realistic changes could be made to the Regeneration sets to close the gap between it and other sets. I have also been thinking about what Regeneration would need if it were proliferated over to Tankers. To level set, I do not believe that Regeneration needs to be as capable as the defense sets in handling high difficulty content. I also don't think that the set needs to change from it's more active form of protection. What I do think is necessary is for Regeneration to have some form of layered protection that is enjoyed by just about every other set. Regeneration depends in large part on healing. It has a bit of resistance in the excellent passive Resilience. MoG gives it an incredible "defensive cooldown." But the constant mitigation that Regen provides is very weak. This makes it very weak to "alpha strikes" those big spikes of damage that a tank especially needs to be able to counter. So the suggestions below are intended to do two things:
- Improve the constant, baseline mitigation of the set
- Make it an acceptable set for Tanking, if it were proliferated
With that as my goals, here are my suggested changes:
- Make the Regeneration buff of Integration full enhanceable;
- Change Instant Healing to a toggle with the following effects:
For Tankers, Brutes and Scrappers
200% Regeneration (unenhanceable)
10%/7.5% Resistance to all damage (fully enhanceable) with one enemy in range
2%/1.5% resistance to all damage (unenhanceable) for each additional enemy in range (up to 9 or 18%/13.5%)
400% taunt (for Tankers, Brutes); 300% Taunt for Scrappers
For Stalkers
200% Regeneration (unenhanceable)
15% resistance to all damage (fully enhanceable)
For Sentinels
Absorb Shield (at current values)
14% resistance to all damage (fully enhanceable)
I would also change the order of the powers to move Instant Healing to Tier 4 and Dull Pain to Tier 7 (Sentinel Order wouldn't change).
That's it, that's what I would do if I had the ability. I think this would be enough to make Regeneration a decent Tanking set and good for the other ATs. It doesn't even break Statesman's silly rule about not changing the essential function of a power since it stays a Regeneration ability, in part at least.
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I'm going to go with an old anime character, Ranma Saotome. https://hero.fandom.com/wiki/Ranma_Saotome#Physical_Abilities
Ranma is a martial artist who like many anime protagonists has abilities that cross into the superhuman. As the main character, he definitely draws his share of attention and has "tanked" for many of the support cast.
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3 hours ago, Solarverse said:
I guess SR isn't for everybody...
Exactly. I know SR just as well as Regen. But I don't like it. It sucks for how I like to play. In your other post about speed runs, you described how you like to play and I can see SR (eventually) being extremely good for that. I literally can't stand sets that don't have a heal and/or endurance management tools. It's why /EA might be the best set FOR ME even if it's not exactly the best.
Regen isn't the best set, not by a mile. Not for the way I like to play nor for how you like to play. But the set is fine. It needs a buff, but any buff that doesn't turn the set into something completely different would not likely change your evaluation of the set. And if I have had a point in this whole thread it is this. Regen is different. Much different than other sets. That doesn't make it bad, it just makes it different. For the game that the devs created through EOS, it works fine solo for most content. In teams it does even better with a few buffers.
3 hours ago, Solarverse said:Then clearly every power in game is by far overpowered and should be nerfed to be in line with Regen then. Hell, that's the best idea I have heard all day, thanks for pointing that out. You're not so bad after all! I think I'm going to end up really liking you.
Realistically, defense stacking shouldn't have ever been as easy as the devs made it after Inventions. But what's done is done. Inventions ticked me off so much because I literally couldn't understand why Regen needed to be nerfed so hard if they were going to let the defense based sets be gods. But...oh well.
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2 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:
Speed runs are becoming my pet peeve, after signing up for a couple of different runs of something, only to find out it's a speed run after starting. I mean geez, does anyone even play the game anymore?
Speed runs are just another way to play the game and equally valid. Knowing the objectives and how best to complete them quickly can be fun. So long as the TF leader communicates the expectations, everyone should have fun playing their way.
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4 hours ago, Snarky said:
I prefer Willpower on Sentinel, but honestly have always avoided Regen (I keep hearing they are going to nerf it...) I have run a few Willpower Sents. On a Beam Rifle/Will Sent it was insanely fun run. Until 50, then you realize you are doing meh team help. I can run a Brute and "pretend" I am helping. Sometimes I even rescue a teammate who is not where they are supposed to be. (Which I can do on a good Blaster 75% time...) But after running "real" Blasters and Corruptors it is hard to sit on a Sentinel and sandpaper away at enemies.
Off-topic but when they buffed the Sentinel AT, I think its Team viability went way up. The Vulnerability debuff and damage changes help a lot.
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2 hours ago, Rudra said:
Statesman was the one that insisted a character with an armor set only ever needed 1 resist power available at a time. (Despite the presence of say... the Tsoo... and their faction having every damage type plus mezzes starting at level 20. Or the fact that situation kept getting worse as you leveled up.) So it's not that Statesman never thought about it, it's more that he was actively against anyone being able to have layered resists. (It was the other devs, to the best of my knowledge, that were in favor of layered protection, but they didn't want to make it possible for armor ATs to be able to max those out.)
This is right. We even see this in the structure of sets like Stone Armor and in the very early iterations of the mez protection toggles in Invulnerability and Stone.
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There are a few reasons I think including: 1) Smashing, Lethal damage was far and away the most common damage type at launch; 2) Power Pools weren't really intended to be used by characters who already had those powers in their primary/secondary; 3) the game was intended (but not designed) to be much slower and harder than it actually was; and 4) the developers thought about building characters like developers and not players.
A little bit more on that last point. What I mean by that is that especially early on in MMORPGs, many, many developers failed to even consider min-maxing as a thing and the CoH devs had this blind spot worse than most. I guarantee that Statesman at the time would never even have considered the idea that players might want to stack additional resistance with a set like Super Reflexes because it was "good enough" for how they thought the game would be played. I swear, developers seem to have this weird idea that players will ever consider a character "good enough". Sure some people will, but most MMORPG players would build their characters all the way to the power level we see in the Mender Ramiel arc if they were allowed to.
So the fighting pool was intended to be used by characters who didn't have many attacks and little defenses like Controllers. The devs said as much. They probably didn't see why anyone would want even more resistance powers in the pools. "Who would take them?"; I can see them saying. Until they saw it with their own eyes they never considered that melee players would want to stack as much resistance/defense possible on their characters.
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27 minutes ago, Uun said:
You're the team leader. If the TF was advertised as KM or non-speed, you have every right to kick someone who refuses to abide by that.
That said, there are certain TFs that are quite long if you don't speed/stealth certain missions (Synapse, Manticore, LGTF) and people have come to expect them to be run that way. I would be very clear at the start that you don't intend to do that.
I agree with all of this. I do think that if you want to do a KM for a TF that is normally sped through at certain points like Manticore, then the team leader should be VERY clear on that point while recruiting and prior to starting the TF.
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1 hour ago, Snarky said:
I can offer you a very non clicky defense set that works much better than Regen, and is easier to slot (and use) Invulnerability.
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...
Invulnerability works and plays very differently for sure. It is much more survivable to be sure. It's not any easier to slot or play, I would argue. Regen is actually pretty easy to use. It just doesn't give you as much mitigation as Invulnerability.
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1 hour ago, Blackjoy said:
Before /Regen's first nerf, the stories are true. Once you got Instant Healing at like 28, which was a toggle, /Regen was essentially unkillable after the alpha. As people posted, you get IH and then you respec. Before that point, /Regen was really bad if not terrible. I specifically remember the developers trying to justify it by saying some sets are good early and bad late and some are the opposite. But Issue 1 /Regen was broken and they knew it...which is why they fixed it.
Ironically, Instant Healing was so good that people actually ignored how good the rest of the set was. IIRC, Integration used to be a 400% regen buff at launch. That's literally the same value that Regen gets with slotting now outside of Instant Healing. And you could slot from there. It's just that Instant Healing being a 1000% Regen buff (enhanceable to 3000%) was loony toons broken.
As for being unkillable, it was darn near immortal, but getting Dull Pain as close to permanent as possible was essential to that. There were absolutely enemies and mobs that could one-shot a Scrapper pre-HP accolades and Dull Pain. Taking Tough to shave off some damage was also helpful with that. Taking Stamina and give it and Quick Recovery SIX slots so you had enough endurance to attack was essential. In other words, just like today, you had to add things outside of the set to make it immortal. It required a very specific and restricting build, Stamina wasn't inherent then.
This is why I think there's no real fix that will make folks that don't like Regen happy. As you stated, stacking Resistance/Defense is just not something that Regen will ever be able to do to the same extent that the other sets will absent a complete rework of the set. Even if we gave Regen back toggle Instant Healing at the same numbers that it is at as a click now AND gave it 100% regeneration debuff resistance, it would still not match sets that can softcap defense, have a decent amount of resistance behind that, and has a heal (looking at you Ninjitsu, Invul, EA, etc.).
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On 9/23/2023 at 1:40 AM, FFFF said:
Great topic!
- Early game, the devs purposely obfuscated how powers actually worked. Frustratingly you only saw descriptions of high or severe damage, stuff like that. I remember the grassroots efforts to start cataloguing activation times and to better understand attack chains. How defense really worked (no one understood that 45% soft cap until player testing revealed it), resistance caps, stealth, tohit, or other significant game mechanics. I can say with certainty that most of the early players essentially played blind, picking suboptimal powers because a lot data was just hidden from us.
Thanks for indulging this trip through memory lane.
This used to drive me so nuts. I also remember that even after they added real numbers, Statesman would occasionally make comments to the effect that people didn't really need them to play the game. Absolutely insane.
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I remember getting on a big team and street sweeping in Perez Park on a lowbie team. That was really fun.
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12 minutes ago, liveevil2000 said:
Is it a good set or a bad set? ... it wasnt a good fit for me, thats all I know.
Absolutely fair point. It's like SR isn't for me. It's a great set, but for me it's not fun.
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5 hours ago, Solarverse said:
Wrong. I challenge you to ask random people in game, not your buddies if they think Regen sucks or not. I think you will find it is quite the opposite.
Have done so many times, most people think it's OK but too clicky. I have given people tips on how to make it less so. Usually this is when I'm playing my Brute and people are surprised that I'm not dying. No one is saying that Regen is some godlike set that stands above all others. As I said earlier in the thread, it's not that, and frankly even going back to Issue 1 it wasn't that. But likewise, no one I have interacted with has said that Regen is this terrible set that has no value.
Regen's issues have been debated ad nauseum in this thread, so I won't rehash. I'll just reiterate my point. Regen is...fine. Not good, not bad, just fine. It plays so much differently than other sets that I think most players would just prefer to take a set that allows you to softcap defense and steamroll. Hell, I personally enjoy that too. I'm a big fan of Ninjitsu and Energy Aura for that reason.
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33 minutes ago, Snarky said:
Let us discuss the history and future of Regeneration.
The darn horse took Revive, Snarky. It’s not our fault it keeps coming back for more.-
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17 minutes ago, Solarverse said:
lol, an extremely small moment. 😜
No quarrel with your point here, but I remember when I was playing SWTOR and PvPing regularly if there were a power like MoG given to any class, there would have been a riot talking about how broken and unfair it is. City of Heroes is a funny but deeply odd game.
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44 minutes ago, Solarverse said:
Regen on a Sent from what I keep hearing isn't that bad. I have yet to try it because I don't play Sents, but, let me ask you, in your opinion, how would Regen play if that was proliferated over to Scrappers...theoretically of course?
It would be...fine. Still not great, but much better than it is now. The issue I have with Regen is probably the same as everyone else's, the set is too focused on reacting to damage instead of protecting you from being damaged. Sentinel Instant healing helps with that, but the concern that I have with absorb shields is that it's not as easy to stack different sources to improve your mitigation like with defense and resistance.
For Sentinels, this is almost irrelevant because they don't draw as much damage as melee characters.
If I were to be allowed to "fix" Regen, my main goal would be to turn Instant Healing to a power similar to Invincibility or Rise to the Challenge. I.e. a power that scales it's mitigation. Thus it could be more potent and would work better in a set like Regen that, to your point, doesn't need help with easier content. What kind of mitigation wouldn't be super important, but I think for everyone to really enjoy the set again it would have to be resistance or defense.
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32 minutes ago, cranebump said:
Regen on a melee is definitely not as fun as on a Sent, I will say that. Thanks to this discussion, I thought, "Well, sure, lemme mess with this whole regen thing." Did I pick something that made sense. No I did not.:-) I went with Ice Melle/Regen, focusing on fast-recharging the Ice Patch. Been running on 0/x3 solo. I can keep 2 overlapping patches up at L20, but taking things down takes a LONG time, since I skipped the cone (I have Sands of Mu, and will probably take Cross Punch, but we'll see). I picked up Tough/Weave, and am building IO sets in the various powers. My goal is get this guy perma-hastened, and just slowwwwwww-Flippy-Flop-BAPBAPBAPBAPBAP! everything before it can respond. That said, having to go outside the main Def set for any sort of basic protection makes this a pain. And my selection of Ice is definitely not the wisest choice. But this is just experimental. And I was able to strip some useful IO's from another retired toon, and seed this guy. But...that sorta makes the point at how, er, not easy Regen is. You need sets and seed money, and lots and lote of Cheetos...er, yeah...
I have an Ice/Regen Scrapper. I created with the same idea as you did. I thought it was survivable enough, but yes I thought it was much too slow at killing for a Scrapper. My Ice/Regen Sentinel is more fun.
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8 hours ago, Solarverse said:
Don't worry, Regen used to be my jive, I played the living hell out of it. So when people say things like, "It is a set that is not for everybody" I eye roll at that statement, and that is putting it extremely kindly. It doesn't take rocket science to play the set. I explained the reason why I think players are talking the set up and I have seen no reason to change my mind. Using +4 x8 Council to talk up Regen's survival is like me saying that I am a great fighter because I can whoop little kids at the playground...when I am a grown adult. The talking point doesn't hold it's own very well. The set is not rocket science what-so-ever, so don't think it takes some type of mystical understanding of the set to play the set like some will have you believe. The set is complete and utter garbage, end of story.
Honestly, hyperbole like this is where you lose me. Saying that ANY set that can handle +4/x8 spawns of ANY faction is "complete and utter garbage" is just over the top. It has problems, it's not for everyone, certainly it's not for you anymore. Regen which gets most of its protection in a reactive manner is not ever going to be as good as some other sets. Even Issue 1 Regen MAY just barely survive the standard you've set for it.
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11 hours ago, GastlyGibus said:
EDITED TO ADD: The other reason it's such a contentious topic is, as others have noted, regeneration used to be the absolute best set in the game, bar none. Regen would make you into an unkillable god, and this was before things like IO sets and incarnates. Because of this, it got nerfed... and nerfed... and nerfed again... then enhancement diversification happened, IO sets came onto the scene, WIllpower was born, incarnates got added, lots of powerset proliferation, and poor regen just got left behind in the dust.
As I said back in 2004-2005 to Statesman and Geko, I don't think Regen was ever as good as everyone portrayed it. We forget now what kind of loony crap you could do prior to ED. I remember Fire Tankers herding most of the NPCs in Brickstown and burning them down. Invulnerability basically not dying because the damage sources were even more biased towards Smashing, Lethal than they are now.
Regen had a particular problem. If it survived the first 2-5 seconds of the fight, it won. Period. AVs, large mobs of enemies, whatever. The catch was that you didn't always survive those first 2-5 seconds. Also as someone noted above, it also was a set where you played to level 28, got Instant Healing, and then rebuilt your whole secondary around having that one power on at all times. The developers at the time repeatedly took the wrong tack to correct this problem by removing regeneration from Integration and Instant Healing. Then they made Instant Healing a long term click because they were too unimaginative to realize that changing a power from a toggle to a click was every bit as much of a change in the essential nature of the power as changing it from a regeneration buff to a resistance buff or something.
But that's water under the bridge. Frankly, Regen is maybe the worst set for some. I honestly don't see it as that bad, even though I think it should be buffed (a bit).
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17 minutes ago, liveevil2000 said:
I never asked if it was good.
My observation after looking at the set on paper was, it didn’t really have any damage mitigation like other sets. So question became, does it regen well enough to compensate for the lack of def/resist?my gut told me a toon with this set will face plant a ton without a boat load of help.
after reading the posts here and seeing the heated debate it stirred up. I decided to see for myself.
I made 4 toons last night.
all Brutes. All with claws as a primary. All science origin. Seemed a fitting set and origin with regen and a “controlled scientific” experiment and all.
… and yes same costume design! I’m lazy that way.The defensive sets going head to head are
regeneration
willpower
super reflexes
Invulnerability
I figure all 4 sets can simulate a certain metal claw wielding character with a pointy face mask and yellow tights.
I intend to lvl them the same way, doing the same missions. Not taking any pool powers. Keeping their enhancements fresh as much as possible. Not using any inspirations.
I will call this the face planting test. To give each set a fair shake. I will go to lvl 25 and track the amount of defeats for each.
On just the numbers and what I’m reading about each set.
I think in order of survival , it will be
Invulnerabilitysuper reflexes / willpower (they seem close)
regeneration.
I will find out how close I am to my prediction.
I’ll post my finding if any of you are interested.
I’m not sure what difficulty you will be using but at baseline all four of those sets should be able to make it to 25 without any deaths at all unless you’re pushing the difficulty way beyond what lowbies are expected to accomplish. I’m not sure what the point would be, then.There are other considerations such as time investment since to the extent that Regen has any advantage over other sets, limited downtime is one.
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2 hours ago, liveevil2000 said:
WOW! Just checked back. I didn't know this was such a hot topic.
Now I get why ...
I'm both glad I asked and sorry.
.... lets see .... what other powersets can I spark a debate with .... hmmmmmm🤔
This is a painful topic. Regen was within a doubt the set that was nerfed the most among armor sets. It plays completely differently than it did in the beginning.-
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Instant Healing and Regeneration changes
in Suggestions & Feedback
Posted
Do you honestly think so? Because this greatly reduces the amount of potential regeneration in IH in exchange for the scaling resistance.