[If you could redesign the inherent powers...]

3 hours ago, Leogunner said:

It's the same as other RPG Class Specializations.  The reason you don't just pick an inherent (skip picking the AT) and then pick powers is because the specializations are a subset of the class (or AT).

ima put a pin in this, cause its really important but it will be more important later. (i had to get out paper to organize my thoughts lel)

 

3 hours ago, Leogunner said:

You don't pick Domination and then proceed to build a Tanker who has inherently high HP, high defensive caps and taunt while giving them the most aggro management/nullification in the game... you'd also need to link in AT mods to inherents and so forth which further complicates the balance and character building for inexperienced players.

this is my bad, by "powers" i meant "power sets," and i assumed (without saying ha) that which ones were available were determined by inherent. which probably seems weird, but put a pin in that too.

 

3 hours ago, Leogunner said:

The question of if it's better is rather a misnomer since no one could actually answer that definitively without at least fleshing out the idea first.  At best, one can presume it'd give players a few extra build options they currently don't have.

 

On the second question, is there substantive difference between those stalker inherents?  Yes.  I have played stalker since CoV launched and I have been around for all iterations of its inherent change (both on live and test servers).  It had some pretty interesting changes and the current Assassination inherent, while not my favorite (and some will also argue it's a bit too strong), it is the most effective.  I was around before when crits happened from hide or on mezed foes only (still the case in PvP), before demoralize came about, when they tested %HP of the target and so on.  Every time they changed the inherent, it changed the way the AT played.

this is my second bad. [better] at [giving players more ability to express "identity."] since that was how i read ur point when you first quoted me, sorry if that was wrong. same with [substantive]. am i making a substantive, meaningful choice in identity when i choose execute over assassinate? because in game, the only expression of that choice will be when/how often i crit. so like im jill the executioner, i crit like this, rawr. vs im bertrand the dissector, i crit like that, roar. they're both neat, and neat in diff ways. but is it a meangingful difference, overall?

 

omg, i am reading 4 posts and then also notes, i am going to cry. lmao

4 hours ago, Leogunner said:

And yes, Assassination does cover most of the identities listed, but it emphasizes Scrapping more than Assassinating to such a degree that it has shifted Stalkers into being arguably better Scrappers than Scrappers, which was the point of outlining ideas for specialized Stalker inherents.  It covers the same things but emphasizes different aspects.

 

If you're coming at the idea questioning why bother, then perhaps you're reading the air of the thread a bit too seriously.

ok, last stretch. real quick: i am a bit confused. you left assassination in unchanged. i feel like this is a contradiction of stated purpose? i hope i can make it clear why below. and reiterating that im not terribly concerned with balance (numbers, math, blah, hate em) just with defining a character's identity.

 

alright, my pins. Specializations vs AT. in my mind, the AT's are inextricably linked to their inherents. functionally, they're the same thing. melee AT's are the best example because they all get the same powers/sets. the only real difference between them is their inherents. the choice between Fury and Assassinate is far greater and more defining than Dissector vs Executioner will ever really be (sry i don't mean this in a bad way or anything). people already talk about how they're not sure what difference there is between a tanker and a brute. i guess b/c they do the same thing, in similar ways. and as you said, stalkers [arguably scrap better than scrappers]. im reading this as the line between those two AT's being blurred.

 

so, new inherents--because of the way this specific game already works--are like tripling the # of AT's. and since we already have 10, for comparatively little gain [for the stated purpose of allowing a player more expression]. and then yeah, as you mentioned, this is all dropped in the player's lap at character creation. how does poor, idk, im out of names. wilhelmina choose between six inherents that all sound kind of scrappery and kind of stalkery, when the line between those two broader categories was sketchy to begin with? its making the same kind of choice, but twice, and then also in a way that's harder and more technical to understand. its complexity, but is it depth? am, am i making any sense?

 

hm in thinking thru it: are you thinking the lines are already blurred so screw it, blur em moar? i guess that'd make sense.

 

anyway, im not unhappy or angry, i am just confused. and dumb. thank u for taking time to explain 🙂

[If you could redesign the inherent powers...]

54 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Obvious answer: you don't.

 

Your blaster example is already the case because if Bob doesn't want to gear up for perma-hasten, capped defenses and utilize the best secondary for their purpose but rather build for *gasp* concept, there will undoubtedly be a Sally who punches harder and faster.

oof, i feel like there's a lot going on in just two sentences. im not smart but i'll try. 😞 

 

here is my takeaway of the point you're making: the benefit of keeping AT's + multiple inherents is that it allows for more player expression of, erm... identity? we'll call it? i think? is that right?

 

i think maybe we're talking at cross purposes. my point wasn't bob is less effective than sally and that is Bad™ because Balance® (that's another discussion but idc about that one its less fun). its that i don't know if that's an interesting choice for a player to make, or if its just a choice for the sake of a choice?

 

like, in your example above. i can choose to be an [executioner] [stalker] or an [assassination] [stalker], and those stalkers behave differently. so that's neat. but at that point, what purpose does the [stalker] AT serve in that equation? why not just... choose executioner inherent and then pick ur powers? its like, now you have to invent an identity for the stalker. b/c as far as i can tell, the only real difference in expression between [exec] vs [assn] [stalker] is that one has orange numbers that behave differently. does that make sense?

 

then my second point was, pulling back even more from that, real big picture: does this system really function any better than the current one we have, in this specific game? is there really a substantive difference between a stalker that executes and one that assassinates, or is picking Stalker + power sets actually more robust of a system? doesn't Stalker Assassination kind of already cover the identities you listed, plus a whole bunch of other ones Well Enough©? its a cool idea, but is it better than what's in place?

 

the way i see it, the way to make this idea work would be to simply divorce power set choices from inherents. you can be a fire blast executioner or w/e. but at that point you've just... reinvented AT's. with more power set choices. which is also neat, but at that point ur just making a new game. so you might as well make a new game instead of dealing with a 15 year old game's limitations/design choices.

 

sry im not smert

[Should all ATs and all powersets support all major playstyles: team, solo, pve, pvp, etc?]

i mean. y tho?

 

or rather what exactly are you proposing?

 

pretty sure my answer is "no" however.

[What play styles should the Dev team support: solo, teams, story, powerleveling, etc]

the only playstyle the devs should (and i assume do) support is: DO-only cross-punch + leap kick pve.

 

the whole game should be balanced around this playstyle. will you go for li tieh kuai's earrings in leap kick? or gamble on the unpredictable visor cross-punch? choose carefully.

[If you could redesign the inherent powers...]

20 hours ago, MetaVileTerror said:

But then I'd allow for each Archetype to have a choice between one of three Inherents

i like the idea but i guess i question what the value of having archetypes would be at that point? why not just choose an inherent and then powers? which at best is kind of the function AT's already serve and at worst is sort of a totally different game altogether.

 

i mean you could keep both i guess, but man. imagine being the gal/guy who has to figure out how to make sure every possible combination of inherent, at, power set, and power set combo a relevant and interesting choice. i'd feel bad for them lmao

 

cause if you couldn't you'd end up with like: this is fire blaster bob. he punches fire!! this is fire blaster sally. she punches fire, uh... HARDER!! rrrrr!

 

wow and eq2 have this problem imo, if you know what i mean?

 

its a good idea, but i think you'd probably just want a whole new game at that point. and way fewer AT's (if you were going to keep them). just to not go insane i mean.

[If you could redesign the inherent powers...]

gauntlet is really the only tragic one because tankers had it from the beginning. scrappers got theirs (along with a damage boost iirc) to make them less useless, and then everyone got one to try to shore them up/make them interesting and just 'cuz. except tankers. they just named the taunt on powers gauntlet and said "You were special all along, lol" man that's a Sad.

 

i guess they were originally going to get fury? and some people were (understandably?) really salty about it, i remember that.

 

i know fuck all about either set of epic AT's.

 

the villain AT ones are all pretty good, i think just cause they were kind of built around them. didn't fury do +300% at one point and then they nerfed it? it was a lot of fun when the game first came out. but then going rogue kinda lul'd all over that one.

 

anyway, yeah. gauntlet. that one was unfortunate. only one i'd say i ever had a 'problem' with or would want to 'change.' couldn't say to what though.

[So you got 6 *T4 on your toon....]

im reminded of one of the devs (zwillinger? positron? someone) saying when incarnate trials came out that they "never wanted us to run out of things to do again." but then the shut down happened. bit of tragic irony there.

 

not smart enough to offer any real solutions specifically for becoming more powerful. it sounds like that's what you're asking? sorry about that 😞

 

i guess if you just don't find playing the character for the sake of playing it anymore, your only real options are trying to eek out more power for your io build. badges? defeat lord recluse with brawl? finish old ouro arcs? have you done the uh dark astoria stuff? i never finished that stuff.

 

probably just time for an alt but doesn't sound like that's what you want. im sorry my dude 😢

[Personal Issue with AE and the slower slog of normal content.]

11 minutes ago, swordchucks said:

It's not per-enemy rewards that are the issue.  It's the cumulative rewards of the AE farm vs. any other content.

i understand, but this is the same problem. my takeaway is: the issue is that ae farms provide more rewards per time spent than other activities. and second that the disparity is too great.

 

regardless of whether or not i disagree with that (and i do, because that's not the basis of how i decide what i do when i play, and i don't particularly care how other people do that math) there remains several things which have to be addressed before anyone can attempt a solution.

 

what is an acceptable rate of time-to-reward?

what is an acceptable disparity between activities?

how does someone determine the above? (which activity is the 'baseline' and why that one?)

what is the desired outcome? (what behavior is being intentionally incentivized with these changes? getting people out of ae? making all activities equally rewarding just 'cuz?)

what is gained by doing this? (what is the goal and why is it desired?)

is this even really worth the time? (its an old game, everyone playing it enjoys it, i'd assume.)

what is the motivation of anyone who wants to pursue this? (are they concerned about the 'health of the game', whatever that means? or do they just feel that some people shouldn't get x in a way they don't approve of?)

 

i just can't escape the feeling here that people are people being dishonest with themselves and/or each other. i... don't farm. i feel no compulsion to farm, even knowing how much better the rewards are.

 

i am a dumb person, i am confused. why do we care how anyone else is playing a 15+ year old game? im scared, save me.

[Personal Issue with AE and the slower slog of normal content.]

20 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Going back to the godfather of RPGs D&D

funny story, in first edition dnd you earned experience from acquiring gold. you acquired gold from going out into the world and doing things that accrued gold. hint: it was mostly combat with bad guys in scary places. you could do roleplay or explore or whatever you wanted, but those activities didn't offer rewards, unless i suppose the dm said that they did. so there was an optimal way to play, and optimal classes to play as to do it if gold/experience was the reward you wanted. damn those 'content locusts,' dnd ruined [shakes fist at air] (btw, really with this locust nonsense again dude?)

 

in later editions, they did away with the whole gold=exp thing. but ultimately combat is still the way you earn experience quickly. and some classes, hell some characters, are still simply more powerful and better at it than others. so just going by the rules as-is? sorry, there's people who will munchkin and murder hobo the shit out of it. and if that's what they want to do, that is what they are going to do. nothing, however, is lost by finding a different group who wants to run in a different way. what you find rewarding is up to you. its scary, but that's just what being an adult means, unfortunately (?)

[Personal Issue with AE and the slower slog of normal content.]

27 minutes ago, swordchucks said:

I don't entirely get how the overtuned rewards from AE are a play style or a preference. 

 

Bringing the AE rewards in line with pretty much all of the other content in the game shouldn't be such a controversial opinion.  If there are other farm missions that allow a similar level of reward, they should also be adjusted.  It should absolutely be a viable way to play the game, but it shouldn't necessarily be the optimal way to play the game.

because they're technically not overtuned (afaik). in fact the experience is already halved unless i am mistaken. its a choice of what content to run and how to run it. that's it.

 

the problem isn't that your opinion is "controversial" in and of itself. its that there's actually a shit ton to unpack with what seems like a simple statement. life is just funny that way.

 

just as a fun exercise, try to envision a system which offers rewards at an 'acceptable' rate across all playstyles and activities. and remember, no one way to engage with that content can be more rewarding than another, or if it is, it has to be within an 'acceptable' margin of error. you get to decide what acceptable means in both cases.

[Everything else sucks compared to AE farming]

11 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

it means they have to keep the base reward so low as to make it basically content you only run for fun and no gain for a content player rather then a content locust. That is what the content locust; speed runners cant seem to grasp

i generally prefer to assume the best about people, but comparing other players to vermin, um. and juxtaposing 'farmers' and 'game players.' that might be letting the mask slip a bit, my dude. are you sure you're concerned about 'content players' (whatever that means, since afaik if you're playing the game you're consuming content) or are you just resentful of people who farm? cause the latter is certainly... something.

 

being charitable and ignoring whatever bullshit is going on with that noise, your problem is that AE rewards are too low for people who want to play story-based ae missions. that's legit, sure, it sucks. but: you seem to want to have your cake and eat it, too. do you want to enjoy content, or do you want to keep pace with farmers? there's sub-optimal ways to accrue experience and other rewards, that's always going to be true, i'm afraid.

 

and again, an auto 50 button is at least an attempt at a solution you're offering, but it doesn't solve the core problem. influence, salvage, enhancements and recipes will still be farmable. and people will still farm for them. especially if full rewards are restored for AE. so your solution might exacerbate the problem you're upset about, or just move it laterally instead of increasing or decreasing the time-to-reward ratio between farming and other activities.

 

but if you're going to be abusive i can't say i care about what you want or how you feel. so i beg of you to maybe work on that and sort yourself if that's where you are.

[Everything else sucks compared to AE farming]

8 minutes ago, swordchucks said:

Other content is getting nerfed because it's too profitable (see MSRs at the 10:1 exchange rate and Hami-zergs) when its profit is still less than what you can get in AE.

oooo, daaammn. i'd forgotten about those nerfs, that's a really good point. that's a really good observation. wish i was that smert.

 

still a little leary about nerfing ae because i hate to try to put a cat back in the bag. but i think reversing or at least revisiting those nerfs would be a really good idea.

 

jesus, i wish i was smarter. hot damn.

[Everything else sucks compared to AE farming]

9 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

So I ask all fellow gamers of every walk, would it not be better to just give auto 50 to those who want it, if in return we could have AE once again give meaningful rewards comparable to the merit rewards of story arcs?

i think this would probably be wildly unpopular with a lot of people, but i do not know.

 

i have two questions though:

will this ultimately have a negative impact on the game overall?

won't people still farm ae for the other rewards, especially if they're increased? maybe you meant something else, not sure.

 

thanks 🙂

[Personal Issue with AE and the slower slog of normal content.]

29 minutes ago, eldriyth said:

I am frustrated because every single character that I create and try to get through the normal game solo, ends up going to AE because the experience of normal content can't even come close to matching it.

sorry you're struggling my dude. there's always gonna be an optimal way to play for whatever you want to do. if it wasn't ae, it'd be something else. but hey, some people enjoy ae, no skin off my back or yours either, really. try to chillax, maybe take a break. if you're not having fun, don't force it. but im not your boss, you do you 🙂

 

11 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

IBPLTFM.

what does this mean, im so curious? my brain said i been peepin long time for money, but i don't think that's right probably.

[My I/O Experience]

9 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

I guess I feel a little guilty about not wanting to spend the extra time to correlate all of this information into a workable build

this makes me sad 😞

i don't want to invalidate how you feel, so i'll just say that that's gotta be a crummy feeling, im sorry.

 

guess im curious though, i usually associate guilt with disappointing someone else. is that what you mean? if so, who are you letting down?

 

i've never felt this way about another person's character. i mean unless they took force bubble, screw those guys. (joking)

 

did someone tell you that you should feel bad? cause they were being a jerk. like even if it was just you telling yourself that. want me to fite em? i'll fite 'em. i got super efficient defender brawl, im not joking around here.

[My I/O Experience]

im not 100% sure on what you're asking so im sorry if this is off base or unhelpful:

 

its really kind of fine as it is. this game's never been particularly hard, and so my impulse is to say just don't worry about it.

 

i can tell you that man do i love io's. all the things you mentioned, the time, the planning, the effort, the payoff? my favorite part of the game. but i think there's something else to consider i guess.

 

yeah, there's certainly ways to make the baddest, beefiest, craziest dumbass character you can make, so over the top you're de facto immortal and blow every archvillain away in one hit* because why the hell not (*i do not believe you can actually do this). do you know what else though? i built a character once for capped run speed once. with sprint. cause i could. cause that's hilarious to me. here comes sprint woman, get the hell out of my way, im the sprint woman.

 

maybe tomorrow i'll make a defender with one attack who only uses brawl with capped resistances. why? because i want that sweet, sweet infinity +1 damage per endurance brawl from vigilance when my team is half dead.

 

and that's all okay. not every character has to be io'd to the gills, you don't need to feel compelled to do that if you don't want. play how you want, friend, its the beauty of this totally, hilariously fucked up game

 

all i got 🙂

[Everything else sucks compared to AE farming]

hmmm

 

is a guy i've known since shortly before live went down. he likes to farm. man does he love to farm. when coh came back, he went right back to it.

 

i've seen him literally farm 24+ hours straight. like, i went to bed, woke up, did my whole morning routine. this guy? still at it. he's got like three accounts. everyday he's leveling a new alt, trying a new farmer. sometimes he even actively plays 2+ characters at once, he loves that shit. says it meditative, relaxing, fun. enjoys making his millions and kitting out his peeps. even lets other people join, cause hey, why not? someone to chat with while he goes.

 

me? i don't like farmin that much. i mean its okay, but i get bored. it makes me anxious. i don't like that.

 

but that guy, he loves it. and when i think about taking that away from him? man, im so sad. i don't want to be party to ruining what he has. when this game came back, dude, i cried. i love running dumb paper missions, making totally useless characters. making totally awesome characters. doing occasional tfs, playing with friends, that's my jam. i'd be sad if someone took that away again, too.

 

game means different things to different people, appreciate and respect that. try not to think of the game as something to be fixed, just something we're all lucky to enjoy again.

 

that's all i got on this topic. 😞

[Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for October 1st, 2019]

28 minutes ago, WumpusRat said:

You don't need to balance it around "every combo that could exist". You can't balance around every possible slotting setup with SO's, so why suddenly claim that taking IOs into consideration is impossible? As Myshkin said, you simply need to use a general idea of what IO sets are going to do.

more variables, i'd assume. i mean, yeah you have no way of predicting if i'll six slot brawl with damage so's. but there's only so many enhancement slots, and so many enhancements to put in them. its a lot easier to quantify. more enhancement types, set bonuses = more moving parts, etc.

 

also i guess i am kinda dumb (sorry) so i don't know who determines what a 'general sense of what io sets are going to do' is or how they go about doing that.

 

then on top of that, are we sort of agreeing that so's are irrelevant? the new standard is io's, and going forward, your so build isn't considered/important for purposes of new content or AT/power comparisons? not saying it can't be done. i mean after all i'm the asshat that six slotted brawl for damage, and nobody balances around me. and we don't really balance level 50 content around training enhancements either.

 

really the only thing that concerns me with these tanker changes (i like them fwiw) is what happens when people start claiming there's "too much power creep."

 

idk, again, dumb person here.

[Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for October 1st, 2019]

1 hour ago, Ignicity said:

I've always been an advocate for not fixing things that aint broke.

 

But hey, keep nerfing, son.

 

GG

 

 

(edit: I once referred to Sentinels as the deformed little brother of All-Human Peacebringers. I can only imagine what this game could have been without your fingerprints on it. Wait, am I still allowed to voice an opinion that opposes HC propaganda?)

i, uh, don't know you at all. and i'm not sure if i'm reading the tone on this post correctly. but this behavior, like this whole post is incredibly abusive dude.

 

fwiw, i'm really skeptical of a lot of a lot of changes being proposed by people (especially vague calls for "more challenge" whatever that even means) - coh was a lot of different things to a lot of different people, and homecoming is pretty much run on donations. i feel like there's a kind of responsibility to crystallize the game as it was, not necessarily how any one of us maybe wanted it to be.

 

but what you're doing is really not okay. i hope you'll re-evaluate, but im not your boss

[Any Protector Server people?]

So, is there a server that Protector players are congregating towards?

 

a few of us are on indomitable, per the discord.