Dispari

I don't think I said that. Just that panicking and posting doom and insulting people a bit premature (and immature). It's not like I don't also want MMs to thrive. I bought CoV because of MMs. I made a Necromancy MM day one and swapped to City over Guild Wars, because I didn't have to find corpses just to have pets. MMs have always been my favorite AT because I play pet classes in every game they're an option. They're currently awful and I will acknowledge that. They pretty much have been ever since the difficulty maximum was upped to +4. And the reasons are many. Once the holidays are over and devs get back to work, I will absolutely be looking over the changes and offering my feedback to help them improve. Yes, it's based on the owner's HP values. They get more than they "should."

As someone who sat through the closed beta experience, I would say, yes this doesn't put MMs in a "better" place than they are now. But we already know they're going to be doing more changes later. This is more like a pre-coat to get it set up so they can come back later and finish the job. A lot of effort and care has been taken to make sure they're not WORSE off, and a lot of the tweaks so far have just been making sure that's true. The points you make about not affecting all sets equally, it was a lot worse at one point, believe me. This isn't to say the changes are all fine and dandy and I have no complaints. Just that I think we need to wait a while before weighing in with how we feel about the changes overall since they're far from done.

Agreed! If the issue is that the MM gets to attain max stacks easier than regular people, why not just make it so the chance of proccing for pets is reduced by 2/3 or something?

Heh, I mean... I play a lot of MMs too, they've always been in my top 3 ATs even though they struggle. Which is why I've been dedicating a lot of my time to these threads. You basically just named all the best possible sets and combinations. City is by and large an easy game that's not very demanding, and you can often play whatever you want and be "fine." So yes if you play extremely well with the best possible sets they're going to feel good. The trick would be to make them feel good even when you aren't the best MM out there. MMs also don't exist in isolation. Yeah you can do all the content in the game with an MM but odds are good basically any other AT would have an easier time or do it faster.

Well no, because of how bad they are punished by the purple patch. Which these changes are trying to address. Yes, right now MMs are nigh unplayable in +3 and above. A friend of mine mostly plays MMs and gave up on doing hardmode content because they spent the whole time resummoning and didn't have any fun. If these changes are handled well they might actually be viable options.

Frankly I feel like even if it was 100% it still wouldn't be all that amazing, but it should be at least 50%. My only concern with making it 100% is just widening the gap between SO and IO MMs. If we have the choice I'd rather see the floor raised than the ceiling. Hell I'd even be in favor of giving up the set bonuses entirely if we could make MMs better by doing so. At any rate, as for the argument that MMs might adjust their builds and go for other bonuses, I did already do a hypothetical "max" on that. These numbers assume you dropped every other priority (namely, +recharge) and built entirely for one specific bonus instead. And what that might look like if you did. Here are the numbers the MM can get, along with what that translates to right now at 40%, and what it would be at 50%. Most S/L RES: +36%; 14.4% current, or 18% if half Most S/L DEF: +16.25%; 6.5% current, or 8.125% if half (it's kinda hard to build for it without melee attacks) Most ranged DEF: +24.375%; 9.75% current, or 12.1875% if half Most DMG: +30%; 12% current, or 15% if half And keep in mind these are all mutually exclusive. You aren't getting all those values on one build. Basically my conclusion is, even if you wanted to go ham on streamlining for a specific bonus instead of +recharge, it wouldn't be very impressive at all. And honestly, you're likely to get way more out of just having your secondary powers up more often. The best you can get out of +DMG is +12% currently. Even if it was half it'd be +15%. Hell even if it was the full amount that's only 30%. That sounds like a lot, but pet damage is really low, and you'd always be better off just having more uptime on Sleet, Fortitude, Overgrowth, World of Pain, Forge, or what have you. That even has the benefit of helping you and all your teammates too. Essentially, the set bonuses are neat, but there's still no reason to build for anything other than +recharge. At best the other stuff you get is just a neat perk. I wouldn't give up 100% recharge for 10% damage. That's just silly.

Fresh math number comparisons for my IOed MMs (the ninja one is a little sparse). None of these include buffs or powers from the secondary sets but does include Supremacy. I did move some slotting where I could, like dropping +heal in Dark Empowerment, but some values may have slightly higher potential if I took the time to adjust to new options. Necromancy (live): Zombies: RES: 55% (S/C/N/P/T), 35% (L/F/E); DEF: 25% (A), 10% (all); HP: 675; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0% Knights: RES: 62% (S/C/N/P/T), 35% (L/F/E); DEF: 25% (A), 10% (all); HP: 903; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0% Lich: RES: 69% (S/C/N/P/T), 35% (L/F/E); DEF: 25% (A), 10% (all); HP: 1132; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0% Necromancy (beta): Zombies: RES: 58% (N/C), 56% (S), 55% (P/T), 38% (E), 37% (F), 36% (L); DEF: 26% (A), 12% (E/N), 11% (R/F/C), 10% (all); HP: 699; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 68%; ACC: 17% Knights: RES: 65% (N), 64% (C), 63% (S), 62% (P/T), 38% (E), 37% (F), 36% (L); DEF: 26% (A), 12% (E/N), 11% (F/C), 10% (all); HP: 932; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 77%; ACC: 17% Lich: RES: 72% (N), 71% (C), 70% (S), 69% (P/T), 38% (E), 37% (F), 36% (L); DEF: 26% (A), 12% (E/N), 11% (F/C), 10% (all); HP: 1189; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 17% Mercenaries (live): Soldiers: RES: 65% (S/L), 35% (all); DEF: 29% (A), 17% (R), 10% (all); HP: 575; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0% Spec Ops: RES: 65% (S/L), 35% (all); DEF: 35% (A), 23% (R), 16% (all); HP: 769; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0% Commando: RES: 65% (S/L), 43% F/C/T, 35% (all); DEF: 29% (A), 17% (R), 10% (all); HP: 964; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0% Mercenaries (beta): Soldiers: RES: 71% (S/L), 37% (F/C), 36% (E/N), 35% (all); DEF: 30% (A), 20% (R), 14% (E/N), 11% (M/S/L/F/C), 10% (P); HP: 607; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 68%; ACC: 16% Spec Ops: RES: 71% (S/L), 37% (F/C), 36% (E/N), 35% (all); DEF: 36% (A), 26% (R), 19% (E/N), 17% (M), 16% (S/L/F/C), 10% (P); HP: 800; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 77%; ACC: 16% Commando: RES: 71% (S/L), 44% (F/C), 43% (T), 36% (E/N), 35% (all); DEF: 30% (A), 20% (R), 14% (E/N), 11% (M/S/L/F/C), 10% (P); HP: 993; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 16% (Merc summon and buff animations are still pretty long compared to everyone else) Ninjas (live): Genin: RES: 35% (all); DEF: 42% (A), 23% (M/R), 10% (all); HP: 575; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0% Jounin: RES: 35% (all); DEF: 60% (A), 27% (M/R), 10% (all); HP: 769; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0% Oni: RES: 87% (F), 61% (S/L), 35% (all); DEF: 54% (A), 32% (M/R), 10% (all); HP: 964; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0% Ninjas (beta): Genin: RES: 38% (S/L), 37% (F/C), 35% (all); DEF: 43% (A), 25% (R), 24% (M), 10% (all); HP: 614; DMG: 29%; ToHit: 68%; ACC: 0% Jounin: RES: 38% (S/L), 37% (F/C), 35% (all); DEF: 61% (A), 29% (R), 28% (M), 10% (all); HP: 807; DMG: 29%; ToHit: 77%; ACC: 0% Oni: RES: 89% (F), 64% (S/L), 37% (C), 35% (all); DEF: 55% (A), 34% (R), 33% (M), 10% (all); HP: 1000; DMG: 29%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0% (Minor bug worth reporting, the pet you buff with your training abilities likes to stand there repeating the animation/sound on repeat until you move) Demons (live): Fire Demonling: RES: 90% (F), 76% (S/L), 62% (T), 57% (C), 35% (all); DEF: 25% (A), 10% (all); HP: 575; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0% Gargoyle: RES: 87% (T), 81% (S/L), 80% (F), 57% (C), 35% (all); DEF: 25% (A), 10% (all); HP: 769; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0% Prince: RES: 70% (T), 67% (S/L), 65% (C), 62% (F), 35% (all); DEF: 30% (C), 25% (A/S/L), 20% (F), 10% (all); HP: 964; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0% Demons (beta): Fire Demonling: RES: 90% (F), 78% (S/L) 63% (C/T), 38% (E/N), 35% (P); DEF: 25% (A), 11% (R/E/N), 10% (all); HP: 598; DMG: 28%; ToHit: 68%; ACC: 13% Gargoyle: RES: 87% (T), 86% (F), 83% (S/L), 63% (C), 38% (E/N), 35% (P); DEF: 25% (A), 11% (R/E/N), 10% (all); HP: 790; DMG: 28%; ToHit: 77%; ACC: 13% Prince: RES: 71% (C), 70% (S/L/T), 68% (F), 38% (E/N), 35% (P); DEF: 30% (C), 25% (A/S/L), 20% (F), 11% (R/E/N), 10% (all); HP: 983; DMG: 28%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 13% Overall feedback: You should be able to see how little the set bonuses actually provide at 40%. 50% wouldn't be much higher. 🥺

Oh yeah, I reported this one at one point but forgot about it. Recovery doesn't work but +maxEnd does.

It's a neat idea but you can just turn on team inspirations as drops and use them, which is what I do for all my MMs. If we're going for intuitive it'd be nice if the set bonuses were just something you could understand at a glance without needing to pull out a calculator. If we do want to do something inspiration-based and newbie-friendly for MMs, they could just have team inspirations on by default.

It was 25% for a while which was basically nothing. 40% I feel is still not very good and 50% would be nicer just to be a predictable and easy to grok number for doing builds with. And still wouldn't be very strong. But they may be keeping track of values and being cautious with it so they don't accidentally hit a number that needs to be reduced later. Which would probably make people mad even if it's still in beta. I do hope they just make it 50% though even if just for the QoL of being able to understand what pets are actually getting when slotting anything. I like math but I couldn't tell you off the top of my head how much of 3% my pets are going to get right now.

I don't necessarily disagree. We were pretty much told changes will be done in two parts. I believe the intent right now is to release this half in a state where people can play with and enjoy having set bonuses for a few months. And any further changes from here should only be upward. The alternatives are to not release anything, or release the set bonus changes without the level adjustments, which might result in a nerf later on.

As Maelwys said, the intent doesn't seem to be to nerf MMs. It would be nonsensical, as they're right now just not a very good AT (even if some might argue they excel in some niche scenarios). We had a lot of back and forth in beta trying to narrow down the math so that they aren't coming out worse than they currently are on live, since that would defeat the purpose of making changes. The reality of the purple patch is it makes things too tricky to balance. Pets of all kinds (not just MM pets, but ALL pets for ALL sets and ALL ATs) need to be the owner's level. Back in the day the highest difficulty you could set was +2, but beyond that the system starts to break down. At +0 your minions are a reliable 20% worse than you and that can be baked into the stats. But at +3 the pets are 55% worse than you. And at +4 they're 70% worse than you. There's no linear way to adjust pets so that they have consistent results. Making them the owner's level is step one in making them perform reliably across all content. We probably won't see those changes until after the holiday though.

It's not a bad idea, though I'm unsure of what I'd suggest as far as what it should do. Damage could be nice, but I wouldn't want to widen the gap between SO and IO MMs too much. Compared to other bonuses, +recharge can actually get quite high. Up to 150% in some cases, which would be a bleed over of up to 60% of (something) if it did anything else else for pets. Whatever that something ended up being could be a major balance shift. Still, something to think about. Overall though, I think the main reason the set bonus perk feels underwhelming is the numbers are just very low, and the main thing people build for doesn't impact the pets anyway. In the end it's still more advantageous to just build your MM for recharge to use your powers more often, and let your pets get some incidental overflow benefits. I see no reason to significantly change any of my MM builds, and the pets simply get small amounts of RES, DEF, ACC, and DMG as a bonus, all of which amount to very small benefits. The most any of my four MMs got for their pets in any one area is 10% S/L RES for one that built heavily for it. Most were closer to 2%-5%. That just isn't very much. Which is the main reason I feel boosting it to 50% should be fine; it's really just not doing much anyway.

My understanding from closed beta was that the MM changes are not complete and will be revisited again later. What we have right now are things they could get out before they all go on holiday break. They can however deliver the level tweak and set bonuses before then for us to play with. Hopefully that means overall damage and accuracy will be addressed at some point. Otherwise, like ScarySai said, there's really no point in adjusting their level if they're just going to perform the same. My main feedback for the current patch is that I believe the set bonuses should be 50% or just removed entirely. 40% is an awkward number to calculate and it's an excess burden for build people to try and work with. I also have a hard time believing that 40% is fine but 50% would be too good. I broke this down into the max possible bonuses you could even get out of any given set bonus, and the difference for any of them was less than 4% at most. For example, even if you went ham on S/L RES bonuses, the most you could reasonably expect to get right now would be 36% for yourself, which equates to 14.4% for your pets right now, and 18% if it was half instead. Which is only a difference of 3.6%. The most damage bonuses will ever go up is 3%. DEF is not even 3%. And so on. This is on top of the fact that pets don't benefit from recharge anyway, which is ideally what most MMs do and should build for, because improving uptime on literally any buff or debuff is going to be 100x more effective than trying to get 3% damage through a set bonus for your pets. If all that is said and done, the set bonuses are just "too good," then I feel like they could just be removed. I like the idea and the tech, and would rather keep them. But if they're actually problematic somehow, I would rather we just focus on raising the baseline for SO level MMs instead, since that benefits everyone.

Do you think you could get details on how much of that would come down to set bonuses? Mostly through things like +DMG and +ACC.