[Unique Names...]

On Everlasting I created a character named Cyclone. I had to use an i for the L because somebody on that server is sitting on the name Cyclone with the intent to make a storm corruptor. She got the name from a friend who was sitting on it.

 

I'm the only person who has actually played a character named Cyclone on the server but I will always have that ugly capital I in the middle of my name...

 

Because the person who has it spelled correctly for an alt they haven't even created yet wants to use it for the character they originally wanted to make Stormsurge but that name was taken...

 

Layered irony and frustration. I would love if names were not unique but I don't I think they'll be able to set that out

[Roleplaying Experience]

I roleplay while running missions.

 

My superheroes interact with their teammates and friends, react to changes in the combat situation, and discuss the particulars of the enemy groups they are fighting or the story that they're contributing to.

 

It requires one major change: do you have to use team chat instead of local or emote.

 

I just put an asterisk on either side of an action to denote that it is an action instead of a statement. It's worked well for over a decade in different games.

[More uses for the temporary power bar]

15 hours ago, srmalloy said:

You can macro teleport binds using the powexec_location command:

 

/macro Fwd powexec_location forward:max Translocation
/macro Cam powexec_location camera:max Translocation
/macro Up powexec_location up:max Translocation
/macro Bck powexec_location back:max Translocation

Being able to put these in the temporary power bar that pops up when you activate Mystic Flight so they're only visible when you have Mystic Flight (and therefore Translocation) active would be useful.

I just use

 

"/bind t powexec_name Mystic Flight"

and

"/bind LShift+LButton powexec_name Translocation"

 

Then I hold left shift with my pinky and click where I want to go with Translocation in the world. Boom. I'm there. I take Mystic Flight off my bars and have Null the Gull hide the Translocate bar.

 

I also use the second bind alone with Teleport. It's a whole lot faster than trying to click macro buttons!

[Instigator: Take Two. Assault/Defense Tank]

5 hours ago, Some Random User said:

Maybe we should start with what we like about the Assault, Manipulation, and Armor Powersets, and discuss what a new category with good stuff from all of them could be paired with. Dominators and Blasters lack Armor, but a Scrapper or Sentinel lacks things those other Archetypes have. What a new combo-of-stuff Powerset would be like is an interesting conversation and speaks to the rest of a new Archetype.

I'm not certain I understand you, here. Do you mean we should design a new powerset type which combines things we like from different powersets or just talk about why we like the powersets that exist?

[Ranged powerset suggestion: Vorpal/Teleportation Blast]

Would also work as a "Super-speed" powerset.

[Hasten]

8 hours ago, Megajoule said:

Permadom is a bit of a special case, yes, and I'm wary of it for a simple reason:  for better or worse, it was clearly not the CoV devs' intent that Dominators have those bonuses all the time (thus the entire mechanic).  Before we go about making that the official new baseline, either by granting universal Hasten or rebalancing the AT itself, I think there should probably be a discussion of whether we should, or if that makes them "OP".

It's definitely something worth considering. But I'm not sure you COULD rebalance the AT at this point to remove Permadom. 

 

For what it's worth, the Live Devs did rebalance Domination in i15. They pulled the big Damage Bonus out of it and applied it to the AT's baseline damage scales, instead. But in the remaining 8 issues before shutdown they never again moved to change Dominators. They just kept adding new powersets and such.

 

I feel like they either realized that changing Domination too drastically or removing it to replace it with a new mechanic was just too much change. That the resulting furor in the Dominator Community would make it not worthwhile.

[Instigator: Take Two. Assault/Defense Tank]

13 hours ago, Some Random User said:

What's the real downside? Archetypes need a different experience, the same Powerset ought to feel different enough. (For an example make a Staff Stalker and a Staff Scrapper.) There should be enough difference to also create new Powersets within that niche (like Ninjitsu). I'm worried this is just "late game min-maxers can't use the Archetype" instead of something that would make for a meaningfully different experience.

Currently no one gets Assault as a Primary Powerset. One AT gets it as a Secondary to pair with Controls. That, alone, would make them feel a lot different. Instead of spamming attacks while your control timers are running down and then hitting more control effects and staring a hole in the Domination power on your hotbar for the Endurance and Control increase, you'd be playing a character who is more focused on where the enemies are and what they're doing. Not just standing in the center of a field of enemies coming to kill you, moving around and keeping track of where they're going so you can maintain aggro through ranged damage.

 

Most of the game is the leveling experience. It's teaming and working together to beat up baddies (Unless your only goal is Efficiency in which case you grab a team of 8 and steamroll without a care as to who is playing what Archetype or Powerset until Knockback comes into play). 

 

Once you get to incarnate levels with this design as I've laid it out you'd -still- do good damage, your role in the team would just have to shift to Off-Tank or something similar. Min-maxers would probably still have a field day with it to tweak it's damage output to maximum and ensure it's defensive stats were completely capped to make it as durable as possible. It just wouldn't be able to main-tank the Avatar of Hamidon as well as a Tanker or Brute would thanks to a lower maximum HP and such.

 

I got the idea for this Archetype literally -years- ago when I first played a Kinetic Melee Brute. I skipped Taunt and used Repulsing Torrent and Focused Burst to grab aggro at a distance. I'm playing a new one, these days, and I love her to -pieces-! But I'm still playing the same "Stand in one spot" game as soon as the aggro is secured. I'd rather move around. I'd rather use Savage Assault or Earth Assault. I'd rather mix and match powersets and create something cool and fun than only ever get this playstyle half-way through Kinetic Melee.

[Suggestion: Dominator Power Proliferation to Sentinels]

13 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

I'm sorry, I guess I misunderstood you. I thought you were opposed to just giving Sentinels assault sets, and instead were wanting a new AT, with assault and weaker shields than sentinels but that also somehow tanks better than a sentinel. 

 

The latter seems much harder to balance than the former, as it would require a new inherent, new epic pools, etc. Not to mention cause even further issues with the tank/brute conundrum. 

 

Sentinels with assault would be great, and would fully realize many concepts from a low level instead of having to wait until epic levels. 

I see where the miscommunication came in! We're good. 🙂

 

And I can agree that it would be more effort to balance than simply giving Sentinels access to Assault Sets. But wouldn't we have to change the Sentinel EPPs? The EPPs typically grant melee attacks right out of the Assault Sets, like Havoc Punch in Electric Assault and Mastery.

 

But... I do have this?

 

You can check out my thoughts, here. As to EPPs I think a split of Control/Support with maybe 1 Sustain power would make a great EPP for Instigators. 

[Opt-Out of Incarnate]

5 minutes ago, Yoru-hime said:

Let me give it a try and see if we can find a little common ground amidst the shouting:

 

To keep it in COH terms, I could see a leveling tree with a main path growing ever bigger, faster, stronger like we have today, but branches off every ten levels or so. It won't perfectly cover what everyone wants (nothing ever will), but at least it creates some degree of tiers.

 

You spend most of your first levels getting your feet under you and doing local work leading up to about level 20 and your first big victories. At that point, you're given an option. You can keep going on to level 21 if you want to start increasing your scope to city-level threats, but if you want to spend your time being a neighborhood hero/villain like Spider-Man, at level 20 you're joining the neighborhood track. Your powers are thematically going to stay about where they are, which is appropriate to the enemies you're fighting. You still make regular gains (new technique, better fitness or new gadget) that fit with a neighborhood hero, becoming level 20+1, 20+2 and so on, but you're never going to reach cosmic power levels fighting street punks in your hometown, nor should you ever need to. Now the developers can design a reasonable neighborhood level villain encounter like the Vulture to fight say, level 20+7 heroes who have spent plenty of time on the streets.

 

That same hero can choose to switch tracks and keep leveling higher on the main track gaining national or planetary level fame and power, but when they go back to their old haunts, they naturally dial it down to prevent incidental damage. The high-powered suit you earned at level 45 stays in the closet for these missions.  Meanwhile, the hero that blitzed to 50 but never spent any time on the mean streets after they had the option to move on is still just level 20+0 on this track and isn't ready for the above encounter because he just isn't savvy enough to deal with 20+7 Vulture's tricks when he can't break out the big guns and start leveling entire buildings.

 

Same thing happens at 30 for city level heroes (Batman and Daredevil class villains would usually be waiting here) and at level 40 for national champions (Red Skull and Ultron come to mind here), each with their own side track letting them play on at that thematic level and making steady yet appropriate gains for that track. Global and cosmic level characters go on to 50 and beyond. They can step over to other smaller-scope tracks whenever they want, but in story terms, they're holding back on their powers for the safety of the locals and without practice, they may not be too skillful when doing that.

 

To be clear, a level 30+20 hero is still basically a very strong level 30, not level 50. No matter how good Daredevil is at fighting corporate toughs, he loses in a straight-up fight with Thanos every single time, as common sense tells us he should. If he wants to seriously fight at that level, he's going to have to go beyond the concept of a city-level hero. If the player doesn't want that for their character, they can keep working toward 30+21 and the next city-level encounter that does suit their favored style of story. There are parts of the content they've chosen not to use, but that doesn't mean that they've completely given up having a way to make progress.

 

This all still carries a real world consequence in that creating separate tracks splits your content and powers development teams' focus so everyone is going to be getting less game at their preferred level. Though really that's already the case when devs implement new content at various levels. It does create multiple progression tracks to go with it, though, adding complexity to managing game balance. There would be a main trunk to naturally blend the world together and work off of, with the option to hop about and play on all the tracks once you reach them if you so choose, be it a local hero briefly tasting the larger limelight or a grand champion getting back to basics and revisiting the old stomping grounds, so nothing should really feel like you're visiting someone else's version of game. 

 

Level both has objective meaning, but at the same time isn't everything. You can be more or less powerful in general, but at the same time more experience as a less-powered hero has its own irreplaceable value.

 

What do you think? Hey, if nothing else, you can both tear apart my ideas for a bit instead of each other... 😉

Personally I wouldn't want that. I feel like it creates too much of a gameplay divide in order to reinforce a narrative divide. 

 

I think most players would just take the "Train to 50" and then feel cheated or jilted at level 20+1 'cause their powers got shelved. Meanwhile a "Dedicated Street" hero who gets to 20+30 or whatever nomenclature we create is still going to have to get to level 50 in order to participate in any form of End-Game system or content (Unless the Devs split their 'End Game Design Time' across all the tree branches.

 

It just makes more sense to me to decouple level from narrative and have different "Game Mechanicy" moments crop up than what we currently get.

5 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Would an “Op Out” option be easier to add to either the P2W or Null the Gull?

Probably P2W because they've already got the Opt-Out on Salvage drops and stuff on those.

[Suggestion: Dominator Power Proliferation to Sentinels]

1 minute ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

So why not play a sentinel with provoke? Tanks are already having an identity crisis with brutes. Either a ranged/soft control tank will overshadow tankers, or they'll just be a worse version of an already marginal AT. This is designing the game for issue 3 in an issue 25+ world. It may as well double sleep durations too. 

 

A new playstyle alone (which again, overly fiddly for the same payoff) isnt a good reason to create a whole new AT, particularly one in a niche that is already problematically crowded. Imagine if there was a DPS character that gained damage bonuses for attacking the healthiest enemy, and required a crap ton of tab swapping to equal blaster damage. Or killed things in alphabetical order. New playstyle, but why?

 

What -is- a good reason to create a new Archetype if not to create a new playstyle? What exactly would be your reason to create a new AT?

 

And no. Tank is not "Problematically Crowded". Tankers are just badly designed for End Game Content 'cause they were created for a game that didn't have end game content. The proposed Instigator would at -least- be able to do decent damage in Incarnate Content without stepping on the Brute's toes. There's 2 tank types in the game and at least 5 DPS types. 6 if you include Brutes. 3 support types if you don't include any of the EATs... Tank, Control, and Pets are the 3 combat roles that have the -least- options.

 

As to "Sentinel with Provoke": It doesn't use Assault Sets. Period. It can't use Savage Assault or Earth Assault or Plant Assault. It's not a character archetype that weaves in and out of melee (even Blasters can get some of -that- going on unless they're /Archery or /Ninja or something). It's not a character archetype that tanks. Sentinel doesn't cover what I want from the Instigator at all, even with Provoke.

 

I really hate the "Just play what we've already got that clearly doesn't do what you want!" mindset. It misses the entire point every time. Like a WoW player saying "Just play a Death Knight if you wanna be a Necromancer!" without any consideration of the narrative or role differences between the two. UGH.

 

 

[Instigator: Take Two. Assault/Defense Tank]

After Vanden commented in a different thread about Sentinel level Defenses taking Alphas and holding aggro, I remembered that I'm not looking at building a pre-IO BRUTE, here. It's been a -long- time since I played a Scrapper to any level 'cause I just do Stalkers and Brutes, instead.

 

The proposed Instigator would need a higher defensive baseline than Sentinels have. Closer to or slightly above Scrappers. But I stand by the idea of giving them a lower maximum Resistance Value. Either 75% or 85% and I stand by their health values.

 

I still think the Sentinel Defensive Sets themselves would be entirely appropriate for their power selections. But the numbers would need to be tweaked up for the Instigator to take the Alpha and have decent survival while moving in and out of melee.

[Suggestion: Dominator Power Proliferation to Sentinels]

Just now, Bossk_Hogg said:

TBH, that sounds mostly pretty terrible. For example, slows are pretty useless on a decent team. They only matter after a target has exhausted all their attacks, and by then the mob is locked down or dead. BLASTERS get AE holds on a 90 second recharge. Sentinels with Rad, Psi etc are throwing their Nukes every 30 seconds which also function as an AE hold. Soft control is dead on PVE teams. Outside of them turning slows into holds, I don't see any real utility. 

 

Improving HOTS? Given how people feel that healing is more or less useless, I don't see a point . In incarnate stuff you're basically full health or dead. KB is already mitigated by AE immob, KB to KD enhancers,  or just not being a dumbass and scattering stuff everywhere. 

 

Any AT that needs to jump back and forth from melee to range is going to lose out on damage while moving. You seem to have created a half-ass tank, with a needlessly busywork playstyle, that would just be eclipsed by a brute for less effort...

 

Being good on bad teams isnt a niche worth developing IMO.  

Not all teams are 8 players steamrolling everything in their path because lolnothingmatters.

 

Sometimes it's 3-4 people and they can use slows and have it be useful. Sometimes it's just two people RPing while they fight crime in a videogame.

 

And yeah. Incarnates and IOd out 50s is a whole other ball game. But if we're going to base all the Archetypes in the game on their level 50 versions then Dominators and Controllers are useless, Tankers need to be erased from the game, ANY Psychic or Lethal or Energy damage can die under the Fire/Toxic spam, and so forth.

[Suggestion: Dominator Power Proliferation to Sentinels]

14 minutes ago, Vanden said:

You're too used to IOs if you think defense sets give "freaking perfect mitigation." Without IOs, Scrapper-level defenses won't let you take the aggro of a full team's worth of enemies without some kind of help, like active mitigation from controls or buffs from a teammate, or just a lower difficulty setting than most people want to run on. Even less so if the defenses are going to be weaker than that. Even so, melee ATs get their armors so they can survive in melee long enough to fire off their attacks. Staying at range for the most part while occasionally jumping into melee for an opportunistic AoE or melee attack is a staple Blaster playstyle, and they do it without armors for the most part. It wouldn't be something new.

I'm not being reductionist and negative just because I see flaws in the proposal.

I would say that calling them "Blasters" is reductionist and negative...

 

You are, right, though, about the defense values. I hadn't considered the relative squishiness of scrappers when it comes to Alphas. Mostly because I play Brutes and Stalkers -instead- of Scrappers. I want to explicitly thank you for reminding me of this important fact!

 

So they would need higher baseline values than the Sentinel gets, but still lower caps than Brutes/Tankers to keep them moving.

 

Though while it is a Blapper's style to dance in and out of melee, they don't do it while -tanking- those NPCs. That's where the big difference actually is. The Instigator concept is a Tank, not a Damage Dealer.

[Opt-Out of Incarnate]

21 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

IN YOUR SYSTEM, Rorschabee is on her own, playing solo.  And sees a bunch of alien-looking dudes she's never encountered before.  They show up as being her level .... so, how does she know she can't possibly fight them because they're meant for Winvincible to find fairly challenging?

 

Meanwhile, in the next zone over, Winvincible sees a bunch of Freakshow-looking villains - and he's never faced anything like them, he's been busting alien heads for fifty levels.  They show up as being his level .... so how does he know that they are worth no XP or IN for him, because they might as well be baby ducklings getting pushed into an alligator pond, compared to his power level?

 

And you wonder how I know you're not paying attention...

 

Because those Alien Looking dudes are her level Rorshabee can fight them. They give normal XP and they're the same challenge for her as they'd be for Winvincible at the same level (Barring AT and Power Choices). If she's level 20 and those aliens are level 20 then there's no problem. Boom. She fights. She probably wins unless she sucks at fighting them. 

 

Those Freakshow looking villains are the same level as Winvincible so he can fight them. They give normal XP and they're the same challenge for him as they'd be for Rorshabee at the same level (Barring AT and Power Choices).  If he's level 20 and those Freakshow are level 20 then there's no problem. Boom. He fights. He probably wins unless he sucks at fighting them.

 

Swap the names around and it's the same Winvincible fights the aliens and Rorshabee fights the Freaks and so long as they're even level there's no difference.

 

 

The divide in power level is NARRATIVE. STORY. Not -FUNCTION-. Not GAMEPLAY. 

 

The Gameplay level = Narrative level thing is how it works in -this- game. It's how it works in a lot of games. But it doesn't -have- to. This has been the thrust of my statements this ENTIRE TIME. You've been inventing the "But they wouldn't get XP!" or "She wouldn't win the fight!" stuff yourself. They're Strawmen for you to push over.

 

Consider this my hail mary pass.

 

[Hasten]

2 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

I guess I have never grasped this universal need for faster recharge - not like, oh Stamina, where it was all too easy and common (back in the pre-inherent days) to find oneself sucking wind in the middle of any given fight. With the exception of certain obvious and deliberate outliers, powers with cooldowns of 5 or 20 minutes etc, I've rarely found myself waiting an uncomfortably long time for a recharge. So what drives this? Is it just gotta-go-fast, gotta have the Biggest Numbers?

I can't speak for everyone, but Peacebringers and Dominators benefit -vastly- from having Hasten constantly active.

 

A Humanform Peacebringer who has a Permahasten build can have a permanent 85% Resistance to everything but Psychic with no Endurance cost. In fact Light Form will give them a Recovery Increase. They'll also get permanent Build Up so long as they're willing to click their Inner Light every 30 seconds. Plus fast recharging self-heals and melee attacks. My high-end PB uses permanent Light Form instead of defensive toggles. Yeah it has a crash, but nothing can do 50% of my HP in damage in the 2 seconds between Light Form crashing (while overlapped) and me hitting a Self-Heal button.

 

Dominators on the other hand become truly BEASTLY with Permadom. Their Controls become Mag 6 instead of Mag 3, meaning they lockdown most bosses and with enough recharge in their hold powers they can shut down EBs and AVs, too. And every time their Domination is triggered their Endurance Bar refills, completely. Without Permadom, Dominators tend to be a fairly squishy sort of character, but with it they're godly.

 

There's other builds out there which rely on Hasten to reach their maximum potential. Who need Permahasten for it to be constant rather than spiky. It's not for everyone, obviously. But for some ATs and Builds it can mean the difference between being amazing and being mediocre.

[Opt-Out of Incarnate]

28 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

No, you obviously don't get my "perspective".

CoX is a game, first and foremost.  Not a comic, not a novel.  And there are just some things that cannot be done within a multiplayer gamespace - no matter how cool the stories would be.  No matter how hard anyone might wish otherwise.

 

I have.  Very well.  You want the game to support stories where a character never grows above "street level" heroism, and also support stories where characters grow to be solar-system-saving paragons.  And you aren't willing to use the tools already provided for that very thing, in the form of turning off XP before the "street level" hero's power outgrows the setting you want him to remain in.

 

What I've been trying, repeatedly, to tell you is: it just is not possible.  You might as well stare at a stream (in real life) and beg it to flow uphill; your results will be about the same.

And, again I tell you: this is physically impossible in an MMO.  You would need to have multiple separate games, sharing the setting but not the actual playspace.  Cosmic heroes and Street heroes would not be passing each other in the same zone, each headed for their own personal-narrative-scale missions.  Wish for it all you want, but IT JUST CANNOT BE DONE.  Again, water, uphill, same results.

The Tigers in Pandaria are a good forty or fifty levels higher than the Tigers in Stranglethorn.

What happen is, Rorchbee sidekicks up to Winvncible's level.

Because Winvincible has been levelling up steadily all along, and recently ding'd 50.

But Rorschabee's player wanted less Superman, and more Batman, so SHE TURNED OFF HER XP AT LEVEL 20.

 

It really is just that simple, Steam.

You keep saying that it's "Not Possible" but I'm outlining how it could be done within the narratives of a single game space that Winvincible and Rorshabee both share. Repeating "It isn't possible" doesn't -make- it impossible. It doesn't actually change anything. You just do not understand my perspective. You're only viewing it through the idea that Gameplay Level = Narrative Level.

 

Do you know how I know you don't understand me? Because you're putting it back into the terms that you -do- understand. Terms that fit your explicit perspective and ignore mine. "Sidekicking" and "Turned off XP" instead of actually grasping that levels don't have to be 100% reflected within the narrative of the game or the shared game space. Because you're saying "The Pandaria tigers are higher level" and not considering how ridiculous a concept that actually is, narratively speaking. 

 

And the "Aren't willing to use the tools the game has" thing just tells me EVEN MORE that you're not reading what I'm writing. Like. AT ALL. I'm done repeating myself on this topic to someone who is going to continually talk down to me, thanks.

 

Honestly, I don't think I have the requisite skills to communicate the idea in a way that you will understand, at this point. So I'm just going to write this whole conversation off. 

[Opt-Out of Incarnate]

Holy shit, dude. I'm... I just don't get how you are having such a hard time understanding this. I -get- your perspective. I'm saying that it is self-limiting.

 

Try to grasp mine. Don't try to make up your own version of mine with a bunch of rules about how characters would 'need to be limited' or whatever. Read what I'm writing, right now, take it in, and try to understand it.

 

In a Perfect CoH2 there would be different Narrative Scales. Some stories would be 'Cosmic' or 'World Class Heroism' at level 1. Some would be Street or Neighborhood level stories at level 50.

 

Maybe you pick how you interact with different Glowies in missions based on a selection of different options, wouldn't -that- be cool? Maybe your character isn't a bomb-defusing expert so you have them cover their eyes with one hand and cut a wire at random. (Heck, if we wanna go cartoony maybe there's a chance that animation doesn't work -right- and your character gets zapped but the bomb is still defused. A Hyuck!)

 

Maybe in a level 1 mission you fight aliens. And your Superstrong Brute character Mr. Winvincible interacts with the mission glowie bomb by HURLING IT INTO THE SUN instead of trying to defuse it. Or you have to fight a bunch of pylons around a super-reactor in a starship to keep it from having enough speed to obliterate planet Earth when it crash-lands. But for every other function it's still just another door mission for a level 1 character. The NPCs hit you as level 1 characters. You hit them as a level 1 character. You know, like the Tutorial/Starting Area of DCUO.

 

Meanwhile over here some dude in a trenchcoat is being as Rorshach as he can manage and fighting some Mafia Thugs in a different door mission where they still disarm the bomb instead of chucking it into the sun or whatever. Still level 1. Just a different narrative scale.

 

20 levels later. Mr. Winvincible is still chucking bombs into the sun and stopping runaway trains by standing in front of them and gritting his teeth really hard as the "Glowie Interaction" for that mission. While Rorshabee's player is instead flipping the switch to force the train's brakes to go into "Magnetic Lock" mode or something else to stop them. At level 21 they decide to have a fight. They're both level 21 heroes and they hit each other like it. There's no mechanical difference between the character's power levels because it's a game and there's no Narrative Scale in PvP. Batman v Superman all over again.

 

In another 10 levels they're friends and sometimes they team together. Rorschabee goes to space to help Mr. Winvincible fight the Rikti off. (They're a stronger NPC Group, narratively, than the level 1 alien jerks that Winvincible fought 30 levels ago) Rorshabee disarms half the bombs the Rikti are planning to drop on Paragon while Mr. Winvincible flings the other half into the sun. 

 

Yeah. It doesn't make sense that Rorschabee doesn't get completely and utterly pasted by the first Rikti Rifle Blast that hits him. Batman survives that kinda shit too, though, so we apply some Handwavium. Maybe they missed. Maybe he has Kreeptonight in his belt which makes the blast not destroy him. At some point the narrative -has- to bend to the gameplay, but it doesn't need to invariably bend to the gameplay all the time forever.

 

At level 50, Rorshabee and Winvincible PvP again. They're both level 50 characters. They hit each other like level 50 characters. The PvP still has no narrative because it isn't a story it's two people beating each other and telling whatever story they want about it. Afterward Mr. Winvincible joins Rorshabee to help Back Alley Brawler (He's in a wheelchair, 80, and basically Oracle at this point) Regulate the drugs in Kings Row by flinging the vats of Superadine into the sun and punching some Skulls with all his cool superpowers but for handwavium's sake he's pulling his punches so as not to paste the street thugs 'cause he's a hero and not a jerk. Again, sometimes gameplay is more important than narrative but it doesn't have to be the winner of every single fight.

 

You get all the benefits of a game in which characters level up. You get to be a "World Class Hero" from level 1. You get to be a "Street Level Hero" at level 50. You can even start out as a 'Street Level Hero' who throws Bombs into the Sun and eventually decides to start doing some of the World Class Hero content when you get to 20 and -only- World Class Content after you hit 35. 

 

 

The players who want Street Heroes are happy. The players who want World Class heroes are happy. The players who want to start out as one scale and 'Work their way Up' to a higher scale are happy. 

 

Do you now understand my perspective that you can tell much more "Comic Relevant" stories in an MMO by letting the Narrative Scale exist separate from your character's level?

 

 

 

And yeah. There's no plausible explanation why the Snail one-shots people. No plausible explanation why the Tigers in Pandaria are -massively- stronger than the Tigers in Stranglethorn, either. But people tend to laugh about it and accept that it's just a matter of Game Mechanics trumping narrative 'cause it happens, -sometimes-. But it doesn't have to happen -all- the time. It doesn't have to be the default. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Opt-Out of Incarnate]

On the note of "Levels have to mean you're big and powerful!"

 

I played Mists of Pandaria from release (I had a Warlock Tank with Dark Apotheosis because that's when WoW was still trying some cool concepts like cloth-tanking) and there's an enemy in one of the -hallways- of a raid. Like before you get anywhere -near- the next boss. This enemy -always- one-shotted anyone it caught. Tank with all your buffs on? Instant-Kill. Didn't matter what your hit points were it literally has an attack that instantly kills you. Even now, after Warlords of Draenor, Legion, and Battle For Azeroth, those enemies will one-shot you.

 

It was a running gag that whenever I got to that hallway I'd make a big speech in the raid group:

 

"Heroes of Azeroth! You have battled against the Black Dragonflight and slain Onyxia. You turned aside the Burning Legion and defeated Kil'jaeden before imprisoning Illidan Stormrage. You've even battled the Lich King himself and slain the God of Death Yogg Saron. And in recent months you battled Deathwing and the Old Gods which controlled him. Now, now you face your most dangerous foe!"

 

 

"This Snail!"

 

That's right. The above NPC instantly kills you. Doesn't matter how powerful you are. A giant Snail (Tauren are about as tall as the stone block behind it) instantly kills you.

 

Because Levels are only as important to the Narrative as the writer decides they are.

[Opt-Out of Incarnate]

31 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

That's an awful signal-to-noise ratio you have going there, Steampunkette.

Anyway: my use of M&M/DCA was solely to illustrate how levels work.  CoX has those - 50 of them, pre-Incarnate.  Build/Slotting aside, a Level 50 character is always going to have the power of a Level 50 character.  And that power is not, nor never will be, "street level".  NOR CAN IT BE.  Whether you're Batman Manticore, or Superman Statesman ... level 50 is level 50 is level 50 (Incarnate stuff totally aside).  And it needs to be that way, for CoX to function as a multiplayer game.

 

This would entail essentially developing the same game multiple times in parallel.

It would also doom the game to inevitable failure, as players got upset, forty-plus levels down the road, that they picked "the wrong scale" and now they're stuck with it.  Many of them would leave, and w/o enough players, MMOs die.

Signal to Noise happens when you've got multiple conversations going on over one topic.

 

And that's how levels work in THAT GAME. That's not how levels 'have to' work. It being Common doesn't mean it's Needed. Look at Minecraft with it's levels that don't function to separate players from given content. That game uses gear to determine what kind of content you can handle. Much like Conan Exiles. Games that use levels or whatever tend to increase a character's narrative power, sure, but even in WoW you're still fighting the 'Local Wildlife' of whatever new continent gets opened up and there's no sane reason for Bears in Northrend to have 16 times the HP of Bears in Kalimdor and yet... It's honestly maddening.

 

And yeah. Having multiple Scales would be almost like having 2-3 zones at every level range with different storylines going on in each of them that ascribe to different narrative scales... Huh. Which... City of Heroes kind of already -does-... When you go to Talos Island over Independent Port you're choosing more Magical rather than Science storylines. What if instead of that, you made it 'Big' and 'Small' scales?

 

Just make some of the zones 'Big Scale Stories' and some of the zones 'Small Scale Stories' and let people wander around wherever they like. Make it a Smorgasbord of Content where you get to pick and choose what you do all the way through leveling. No need to "Scale Lock" characters. After all, Batman helps Superman fight Darkseid and then goes back to Gotham and nearly gets killed by a dude in a Green Jacket who asks silly questions.

 

Level 50 (or 40, or 200, or whatever) is still the same power between characters. I get that it has to be that way and I'm never going to dispute it. No point in disputing it. But level 50 doesn't have to mean "Cosmic Hero" or even "World Class Hero" if the narrative doesn't -force- it to do so.

[Opt-Out of Incarnate]

 

41 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

The problem here is, you are not the sole narrator of the CoX story.

 

You're not the Game Master, running the game for the other players.

As for your narrative holding to their standards of power ... let's look at Captain Marvel ("SHAZAM!" and all that).  He's Power Level 15.

His Strength score is 19; if he wants to pick something up, he just does, if it weighs up to 12,000 tons.  Twelve.  Thousand.  Tons.  To put that in scale, the U.S. Navy's latest ship class, the Zumwalt destroyer, has a displacement of 14,564 long tons, or about 16,312 short tons.  That is just a little more than he can automatically lift, so he would have to use "Extra Effort", mark one Hero Point off as "used" for that adventure (it's not permanently gone, though - he'll get it back), upping his limit to 25,000 tons, and ..... whoosh, the Destroyer is lifted over his head.  (He'll have to spend more Hero Points to KEEP it there, mind, so eventually he'll have to put it down.  Or throw it at Black Adam, maybe ...)

 

Shazam is a fairly TYPICAL "flying strong guy" for PL 15.  And throwing navy destroyers at badguys is NOT Street-level!

 

When playing M&M3 or DCA5, either your narrative conforms to their standards of power, or you need to choose a different game system.  There is no Door #3 here.

That's not how that game works.  Literally, it's not possible for it to work that way.  The various Power Levels are defined, explicitly, in the book.  The image below is the examples they give.

 

The game is mechanically set up for those definitions; you literally cannot say "my PL 16 story is a street-level game" - PL16 heroes would literally, and inevitably, be too powerful to stay "street-level" for more than five minutes of play time.  The game provides a framework, and when you decide "I want Mystery Men, not Justice League" ... that means you want a PL 8 game.  You cannot successfully shoe-horn a PL16 game into being Mystery Men.  The characters would be too powerful .... because Power Level is literally how powerful a character is.

 

Superman is PL 15.  Superman is not a Street-level hero, because he is to street-level threats, as you are to a typical ant.

Because Comics are not Games.

In a GAME ...?  Yes, they both actually do have to steadily increase in power.

If you were to run "The Super-Friends" as a campaign of DC Adventures ....?  As with CoX, as you play and foil villains, you gain new Hero Points.  Which you then spend to increase your abilities.  As you increase those abilities, your Power Level eventually increases.  The default rule is, every 15 new points, is a +1 increase in Power Level.  Typically, you gain 1 new point after each adventure (which should take about 4-6 hours of play on average).  2 is you faced off especially strong opponents.  Adventures that are longer, and take multiple sessions, get these awards per session.  And, possibly, 1 or 2 extra points if the heroes did especially well, above and beyond basic success.

In CoX terms: after about fifteen door missions, maybe less if there's a tough boss in there ... +1 Power Level, congratulations.

Allow me to repeat myself:

9 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

 

Now stop trying to use Mutants and Masterminds to justify City of Heroes's narrative choice. Not only is it an apples to oranges situation it's also people trying to put DC's characters into a system they weren't created with. It's always going to be a Square Peg Round Hole situation at best.

And, again, I'm not trying to be the "Sole Narrator" of CoH1. I've said, -time and again- that I'd do the multiple scales narrative as part of a CoH2 if I were a part of designing it 'cause it would allow for more character and narrative variety than CoH currently does.

 

For this game and the problem presented: A simple 'Yes/No' flag on Incarnate Drops added to the P2W vendor seems like the best solution. Low investment, low impact to the community, high impact to those who want it. As I've also said, repeatedly.

[Opt-Out of Incarnate]

4 hours ago, ZeeHero said:

I mean if the story doesn't make sense to those participating or the audience it's not a good one so whats appropriate will vary.

Sure. Which is why I suggest having a bunch of different stories to tell.

 

After all, Batman can hang with the high end of the Justice League but also goes right back to Gotham to nearly get killed by the Joker or some themed Doctor-Criminal with a gun or a bomb or a plant every other week. 

 

Because in Comics it's not a one way street of the superhero getting more powerful until nothing 'Street Level' can oppose them. Certain stories go that way, obviously. But not -all- of them. Batman and Spider-Man don't face the DBZ problem where their power has to continually grow to beat ever increasing threats 'til they're blowing up planets when they get the broccoli farts.

 

Which is why the best possible CoH2 would include the idea of Narrative Scale from Day 1 'til Sundown. But for City as it is I think the best solution to the presented problem is the "No Incarnate Drops" P2W button. Just so the people who want to can choose to opt out.

 

For the record: it's not a problem for me. I just incarnate out all my characters and ignore the narrative surrounding it, then re-write the narrative of missions I do for my Street Sweeper type heroes. Hell, I run "Hero in the Isles" concept characters where I roleplay with friends that we're all heroes and rewrite the mission narratives in the RP to support that claim, the CoV Writing team has no power over -me-!

 

But I respect that Megajoule has a problem, here, and it seems to have an easy solution. So why not?

[Suggestion: Dominator Power Proliferation to Sentinels]

6 hours ago, Vanden said:

Then what's the point of them having armor toggles? Running into and out of melee, hit-and-running with ranged and melee attacks? That's a Blaster. You've designed the Blaster.

The point is to design a new playstyle. 

 

And no. That isn't a Blaster. The point of the armor toggles is passive damage mitigation,  Vanden. I'm just suggesting it not be freaking perfect mitigation so we don't get another AT that stands in the middle of a pack of enemies punching them. Someone who creates aggro to keep their team safe while being dynamic instead of static. Someone who makes soft controls like Slows more relatively useful. Who makes HoT effects a better form of healing for the metagame of a given team. A tank type who pairs particularly well with Controllers and wouldn't be annoyed by knock back scattering the enemy group.

 

Before getting fully IO'd and half their Incarnates a Blaster can't tank a +4×8 team and take the Alpha. The Instigator would, but would need to continually mitigate damage through distance while managing aggro as the fight continues to avoid getting surrounded or cornered and have to rely on their passive mitigation which ain't perfect to keep them safe from all the incoming damege. To me that's freaking cool.

 

Why do you insist on being reductionist and negative about this?

 

Actually, here: 

 

If we're gonna talk about the Instigator idea, let's do it in the Instigator thread so you can see the compiled idea in one spot instead of piecing it together through a series of posts. It's a lot more thought out than I think you realize.

 

[Suggestion: Dominator Power Proliferation to Sentinels]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

What's going to happen if you give Assault sets to a DPS or tanking AT is you'll effectively have made another melee class. They'll need to use their melee attacks to fill their attack chain, so they'll be in melee all the time. Assault works for Dominators because they can fill their ranged chains with holds and such from their primary, and it might work for a Buff/Support class for similar reasons, but for a DPS class with a Defense Primary or Secondary? I don't see it being very different from the four melee classes we already have.

Which is why their defensive values need to be capped off somewhat lower. Less HP than a Brute, Less Resistance than a Brute or a Tanker. Give 'em Sentinel Style defense sets so they don't even get the benefit from target-count power saturation. They also won't have PBAoE Damage Toggles for aggro generation! (Okay, Dark Armor gets their PBAoE control toggles, still, but think of how squishy Dark Armor is in general!)

 

That way they can't -stay- in melee, taking every attack that enemies fire off, and -have- to move around to avoid getting overwhelmed.

 

Move in to make attacks from your chain, move out to make ranged attacks and limit incoming DPS, bouncy-bouncy fun fun fun! Generate as much aggro as possible to keep your squishie(r)s safe...

 

Meanwhile Scrappers, Brutes, and Tankers just stand stock still hitting things 'til they fall over. Moving during a fight only while grumbling about the Peacebringer's Knockback.

 

At max level, or with a team of buffers and healers, they might be able to play like Brutes and Tankers and anyone else who caps all their defensive abilities... but that's the same with EVERY Archetype so it's really not something to be too worried about.

 

At least: That's how -I'd- do it.

[Opt-Out of Incarnate]

4 hours ago, PaxArcana said:

No, of course not.

But they do have to SUPPORT the story.

 

That's not how it works.

 

Conveniently, the 5th edition of "DC Adventures" - the official RPG for playing in the world of Batman, Superman, et al - uses the third edition Mutants and Masterminds rules.

Nightwing - Dick Grayson's adult heroic persona - is PL 10.  His activities are focussed primarily in a single city, Bludhaven.  He is at the upper end of "street level" heroes.

 

Robin (Tim Drake) is PL 8; Batman is PL12.

Meanwhile, the Joker is PL 11.  A decent match for either Batman or Nightwing, but for young Tim Drake?  Seriously hard.

And that's just the Joker.  A one-city villain.  So, a "Street Level" Archvillain.

...
 

Meanwhile, Darkseid is PL 16.  If Robin had to face him, Darkseid's only real challenge will be deciding which minion to order to wipe Tim's remains off of his boot.

Rularuu coming to Paragon City, would be like Darkseid coming to Gotham.  Out of Batman's league - he would have to put out a desperate call for help from his SG - and hope more than two of them show up; Superman and Wonder Woman are both PL 15, Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) and the Martian Manhunter are PL 14, Aquaman and the Flash are PL 12 ...

Whether a hero is "street level" or "global" or "cosmic" has to do more with the relative power level of who he or she faces (and how broad of a threat they ultimately pose), than with the particular theater of the conflict.
 

And none of that matters 1 entire Damn if my narrative doesn't hold to their standards of power.

 

If my "Street Level" heroes are PL 16 then my "World Heroes" are 18s and my "Cosmics" are 22s. Or I could make my Cosmics 16s and just run that story instead.

 

The game facilitates the storytelling. It doesn't -force- you to follow the Developer's recommendations on how strong different characters or concepts are. Mainly 'cause how many power points you spends means nothing if the enemies are at the same level of power.

 

Again, I'll point you to Paladin and Jurassik, Deathsurge and Rularuu. All are "Giant Monsters". Your level 50 Incarnate IOd out superbad "Cosmic Superhero" character hits Paladin like you're level 19. Your Judgement? Hits like you're level 19. All your high tier attack powers? Like you're level 19. Meanwhile he hits you like he's level 50.

 

He's not a Cosmic entity here to destroy our world. He's a big psychic clockwork manipulated by a guy who got beat near to death by a Superhero Cop. The Joker, Batman, Superman. All of them hit Paladin just as hard, regardless of their "PL"

 

Now stop trying to use Mutants and Masterminds to justify City of Heroes. Not only is it an apples to oranges situation it's also people trying to put DC's characters into a system they weren't created with. It's always going to be a Square Peg Round Hole situation at best.

[Opt-Out of Incarnate]

16 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

So what you just said is... if Rularu the Ravager comes down to the streets of paragon city and we fight him we are all street level heroes for that event. makes a kind of literal sense but a literal sense only.

 

However many of my heroes begin their journey at street level. even the mighty astera (an incarnate) starts her career there as she learns to control and use her vast potential power, and as it grows she steps up to higher and higher threats. theres a sort of progression. also the reason why retcons and universe restarting events happen in comics.

 

An incarnate is absolutely NOT a god. they are not all powerful, there are threats which would stomp an un aided incarnate such as battallion or rularu. Astera for all her power is mortal although she may not age, and can be at least theoretically killed. Mortal MEANS able to die.

Narratively Rularuu is a cosmic entity. Doesn't matter where you fight him, he's still going to eat our reality.

 

But a character like, say, Paladin is not a Cosmic Entity. It's a giant Clockwork. Mechanically they both con Purple regardless of your level. They both function by the same rules of Giant Monsters. 

 

Narratively they're wholly different beings for how dangerous they are and what their goals/existence is. Paladin is a scary robot that terrorizes Kings Row once in a while, while Rularuu wants to get out of the Shadow Shard and eat our whole reality.

 

But they're both 'Just Giant Monsters' as far as game mechanics go. You're level 50 with 4 level shifts and Tier 4 everystuff and IO sets to hell and back? Paladin STILL cons purple to you. Even though 10 level 20 characters beat him the last time he spawned, you're not going to be able to Thanos Snap him out of existence with all your Incarnate abilities. (You'll still beat him if you're built really well, but it's not going to be a 10 second fight)

 

Game Mechanics do not -have to- define the narrative.