TheAdjustor
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Posts posted by TheAdjustor
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12 minutes ago, Epsilon Assassin said:
Ok, that's a valid point of view, but why is your opinion more important then mine, which would be that it doesn't break anything, so dont touch it. That's the biggest issue. Not that it can't be done, not that some people would like it dead, but rather why.
Is there a reason?
She got her head handed to her in this thread
Where she argued hasten was unimportant and people didn't take it.
2 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:Incarnate Enemies are designed to have enough ToHit to punch through Softcapped defenses and require 56% to be softcapped to them rather than the typical 45.
So it's disingenuous to say that balance went out the window with IOs, since outside of SR using all toggles, autos, and their Tier 9 it's pretty much impossible for an SO-only character to hit 56% defense.
Are you done?
If you are we can talk like adults. If not I'll just put you on ignore, it's healthier for both of us.
Yeah that wasn't balancing. Unless you consider that resistance should be the only valid form of mitigation .
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1 minute ago, Megajoule said:
IMO: No, the game was pretty obviously designed with the expectation that some powers would be balanced by only being up some of the time.
The playerbase took that and did everything they possibly could to break / get around that design decision, so that they could have those powers up all of the time.
This was, still IMO, clearly not the devs' intent (or they would have made those powers a toggle or whatever from the start), but they just couldn't keep up with a bunch of players dedicated to breaking their original intent/design into little pieces.
To people saying, here and now, that this would break Perma________, I say good.
Perma_______ was never meant to be.
I understand where you are coming from but I am sorry but "Perma was never meant to be" is obviously wrong.
Rage, practiced brawler, Active Defenses, fortitude etc are all examples of powers that are meant to be made permanent, they can be made permanent even without global recharge
There are a host of powers that can't be made permanent without global recharge but can be made permanent with proper team composition, the fact there are powersets that explicitly provide global recharge as a buff demonstrates this.
Kin for example is a powerset that has been in the game since I1. If you say the devs didn't want anything to be permed you are arguing they designed entire sets around their ability to do so and then ignored it.
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24 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:
All that will end up doing is people basically slotting MORE recharge out of their powers and IO bonuses. It doesn't actually do anything good, in fact it now limits build variety EVEN MORE since you're now everyone is going to be focusing on cramming as much recharge into their build as possible to replace the 50% lost by hasten.
Also this kills, completely, Perma-dom and Perma Phantom Army. Like I said Perma PA require waaaaayyy more recharge than perma Hasten (like a LOT more recharge) so then in order to still make this achievable you're not just removing hasten, you're also going to have to rebalance dominators and Illusion control so that they can, once again, get back up to the heights they once got to. So deleting hasten is adding even more balancing work.
Dominators, all control sets, all blaster primaries and secondaries, every melee primary with buildup, every melee primary that has some sort of +damage, Fury may need looking at, Every buff/debuff set with very long recharge powers.
The whole game was designed with 70% hasten slotted with SOs as a consideration
Oh and just for referrence seeing as that stupid 20% as an inherent is the same thing keeps being posted.
Hasten 3 slotted with common IOs has 167 second recharge and 120 second duration . Giving a 71% uptime or a 50% recharge time bonus.
This hilites exactly how little thought was put into these proposals.
It's a great example of just how bad diminishing returns are on recharge. Seeing as the 70% recharge bonus and slotting
eliminates 113 seconds of cooldown time, but you have to add yet another 100% to get those last 40 seconds.
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8 minutes ago, Megajoule said:
I believe that this may be a case of "changing one's mind" and/or "bowing to the inevitable".
Power Creep is something to be avoided (IMO - others disagree, obvs), but the statistics quoted in the other thread (and at the start of this one) suggest that it's too late for that, or the question is moot - it's already done, almost everyone already takes Hasten, so let's go ahead and make it official (and truly universal) and simplify things a bit.
I wish it wasn't so, personally, but mine seems to be very much a minority viewpoint. Statistically insignificant, in fact.
I can understand why people are against "power creep" even though it's not an opinion I share. I feel there is an appropriate power level / play difficulty for any game and when changes are considered this needs to be taken into account.
Even so, that is at most only one factor and not even the most important. Much more important is how people interact with the game. How does the game feel. At low levels without significant amounts of recharge slotted the game feels sluggish and unresponsive. You can certainly get things done, but it's painful. It's hard to get a rhythm going you are playing a much more cautious kind of game, it's generally slower paced. As you start to solve your endurance issues and get levels of recharge slotted, the game becomes much faster pace, and feels more natural to play.
Making a fully inherent hasten isn't a bad thing in this regard.
That said. This thread hasn't been about improving the game play. It's been about stirring people up
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4 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:
If we do the Delete Hasten and shift to 20% global recharge for everyone (Effectively giving everyone unslotted Hasten) the immediate result is the Recharge Meta goes out the window. Recharge will still be a strong mechanic, particularly among set bonuses, but it won't be the end-all-be-all of power.
Long term, this would encourage different builds. Different "Optimal Attack Chains" and overall increase the challenge of the game by stripping some of the extreme ends of power away.
If we do the "Shift things around" design, very little changes in the short term. In the long term, though, more people who are moving into choosing sets and final builds for characters will run into the 'Smaller gains' appearance, since "Permahasten" just takes you from +20 to +45. And might try something different...
It wouldn't be the Optimal Build, but it would at least be variety, which is the spice of life.
I am sorry weren't you earlier arguing that people didn't know what their optimal attack chains were and couldn't care ?
I don't even want to go into the power creep/OP power issue you have raised elsewhere, seeing as this is now literally arguing for power creep in the game. (not necessarily a bad thing just an incredibly inconsistent stance on the part of the poster)
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1 hour ago, MunkiLord said:
I think to have any noticeable impact on people choosing Hasten on every build the inherent change would need to be larger, like 40-50% and Hasten moved to 20-30%. If that were the change, I think it would accomplish the goal of the OP. But that is also a significant boost to base stats, so then we run head on into the power creep issue. I think. I could be wrong as I'm just speculating on what the masses will do.
People take hasten to achieve build goals not so much . Getting aim and build up into the low 30 second mid to high 20 second range, getting self heals available more often. You can see this in the builds people post even the very bad ones.
I don't know that it would be such an issue with power creep though. As things stand most people put no more than three slots into hasten (make no mistake putting up to 6 is a valid strategy and can be beneficial) and usually less (based on builds posted to the forums). Freeing up the power pick would likely be a very small power creep as a result.
At a guess the result would be a good number of builds(especially not those using super speed) would take stealth for the extra defense and an extra luck of the gambler slotting. So the trade off would be ~2.5% defense and +7.5% recharge vs however much recharge the new hasten would provide.
If you went with the incredibly silly "make it even more clicky" proposal, the shift would likely be even more pronounced as time spent casting hasten is time not spent doing other things and would tend to negate the benefits of the power.
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2 hours ago, DSorrow said:
But it wasn't ED alone that made the game more fun, it was ED as a stepping stone to IOs. I can't speak for anyone else, but without IOs I would've left the game a long time ago because with ED restricted SOs build variety is actually pretty limited if you want your build to be effective. I do agree with you on the target / aggro caps because the way they worked before promoted a pretty boring playstyle.
Bingo ED damn near killed the game. I believe Aggro and Target caps had more to do with server load/ griefing issues than anything else.
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I like it but I would have all sets go from 10-50 and just call it a day.
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My personal feeling is fighting could use a little looking at.
I suspect kick/boxing are overwhelmingly unslotted or taken as set mules. I don't get the whole force people to take something useless not going to be used idea.
There's also the option of not requiring two picks to get weave.
I know for blaster builds I can practically look at the build and see if it has tough or weave or not and have an instant pass fail on the build. It's also a good indicator for melee builds but not as much.
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43 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:
Adjustor I've got you on ignore because you started out at 'Rude' in our encounters and went downhill from there. When I respond to you it's because I am making a posts and get the "1+ new replies" thing pops up and when click it and it shows your post distorted as shit instead of not showing your post at all.
And yeah. Recharge has minimal effect on short-recharge powers with 10 seconds or less. Meanwhile shit like Build Up, Mass Holds, Lightning Rods, and shit all -significantly- benefit from having their recharge rate slashed. Lightning Rods starts at 90 seconds. With 2 Recharge IOs it's down to 49. With Hasten it's 35 seconds. That's 14 seconds off the recharge rate, roughly 2/5 of the remaining recharge time.
It's almost like you're choosing short-recharge powers specifically to try and minimize the impact... Weird that.
Figures don't lie, though, right?
No it peters out after around 150% recharge just like everything else.
Just multiply by 10 and a 10 second recharge becomes 100, and a .25 second recharge difference on a 3.5 second recharge becomes 2.5 seconds out of 35
Not much at all, seeing as you need at least 100% global recharge for perma hasten, and can slot at least 2 recharge IOs worth of recharge into any given power, your example isn't very good at all. An uncharitable person would say it's cherry picked.
Anyway if you had of actually been looking at what people were telling you, you would have noticed that multiple people told you this multiple times.
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1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:
I posted it on the forums to get feedback. To get some kind of idea of how to change something that is -clearly- overpowered.
Yeah clearly. / sarcam
Nothing but nothing in this game is OP on its own. Recharge especially not so
10 hours ago, TheAdjustor said:Recharge for most people is generally very deep into the land of diminishing returns.
Example a 10 second recharge power
0% Recharge : 10 seconds
60% Recharge : 6.25 seconds (typical set slotting)
80% Recharge: 5.55 seconds
100% Recharge : 5 seconds
120% Recharge: 4.5 seconds
140% Recharge : 4.17
160% Recharge : 3.85
180% Recharge : 3.57
200% Recharge : 3.33
230% Recharge : 3.03 (Perma hasten and 60% in power recharge)
260% Recharge: 2.78 ( adding a full 30% as a power pick to that)
400% Recharge : 2.0
You just don't get that much from additional recharge. Once you have enough to run your optimal attack chains and a little extra to cover debuffs it's not that particularly important at all.
Some sort of recharge global would be very nice for people that don't want to take hasten, it's practically a forced pick but do want to be able to run their attack chains.
People tried to give you information in that thread. The above is there plain and simple you just chose to ignore it.
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23 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:
Results of 5 runs each:
This surprised me as I did more runs, but while Battle Axe took more damage / had a death, it was actually faster thanks to keeping enemies bouncing more often instead of giving them windows to run away. Herding up more groups with Broadsword was easy as pie, but that also ate into time that could have been spent swinging at enemies. The last column reflects this where it shows the spread. Broadsword has a 9.28 sec spread where BA has 13.48, making BS more consistent currently.
This was something I found with my runs as well. This map notably is harder to herd on than the original one.
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1 minute ago, Steampunkette said:
Cool beans. One of my characters has Permahasten. None of the rest do. About half of them don't even have Hasten 'cause I'm not trying to get optimum attack chains that eschew anything but strong attacks. It's just not important to me.
I get that it's important to you, though. Which is why my suggestion went from "Delete Hasten and replace it with a different power, then give everyone a 20% Recharge bonus inherent" to "Let's try defanging the psychological component of Hasten without reducing the power"
I got shit for the first one, and I got shit for the second one. People want it to stay perfectly unchanged, by and large. Why? 'Cause nothing can change.
The power can't change and the number of people who take it won't change 'cause that would RUIN ALL THE THINGS.
It's really demoralizing.
That's what happens when you screw with things without doing the work needed to make a case. It's a COMPLEX game. There is no way you can call this shallow or simple. It may look that way at first but it changes rapidly and there's many pieces that all link together.
Changing stuff just isn't a matter of "Oh that's too good, or that's really bad". Powers are part of sets they have effects on other abilities and there has to be limits on how high things can go.
Some of the worst changes to the game looked innocuous.
1) Trying to make the devouring earth and praetorians more serious threats by giving them +to hit (as every resist based build cheered)
2) Adding superstunners to the freakshow and nerfing the bonus rewards for killing them on res (squishies wept, people who played a more or less straightforward game wondered why, and farmers just plowed on not caring at all)
3) "Fixing" melee pets by destroying every pet in the game's ability to take advantage of recharge. (still trying to work out that one)
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3 minutes ago, Starforge said:
I'll have to check that out later. Is it half as entertaining as this one?
It's a hoot especially when you compare positions in this thread with those in that one.
Edit: You'll also understand why I quote almost everything I reply to in these threads.
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1 minute ago, Starforge said:
Which is funny because I thought the point of this thread was too many people take Hasten? If that's still going to be the case, why not just make it inherent like the Fitness pool?
you need the required reading thread. AKA the thread that birthed this one
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12 minutes ago, Haijinx said:
Back then they could 6 slot hasten with no ED. So quite a bit more than that.
It would be like now with +99% global recharge.
Need a bullseye emoji
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Just now, Steampunkette said:
The playtesters in 2002 through 2004 didn't have IO Set Bonuses to contend with.
In a Vaccum, without set bonuses, Hasten is find. It's about a 20% overall passive recharge bonus like Quickness from Super Reflexes. Only it's not going to have any effect on most melee attack powers outside of it's 2 minute window, and it's really only absurdly long recharge time powers that take full advantage of it.
It's only now, with Set Bonuses, that Hasten has become the big bad that it is.
Sorry hasten in beta was permanent 70% + recharge. They didn't need set bonuses just 6 SOs
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1 minute ago, Steampunkette said:
The problem being that pool powers are SUPPOSED to be kinda bad. They fill out your style, rather than define your play experience.
They're not supposed to be something huge that you would forgo a primary powerset or even secondary powerset pick to choose. That's why even as "Good" as tough and weave are they're not as good as any Scrapper's defense or resistance toggles.
"Buffing the other pools to be good" won't help unless they also provide globally big benefits that would make someone consider not taking Hasten to take one of them, instead. And that's a -huge- leap on the power curve. Particularly since they wouldn't be mutually exclusive.
People would just take Hasten -and- three other 'Character ability redefining' powers instead of just Hasten.
You can only pick 4. So yes 3 and hasten would be mutually exclusive with other power pool picks. I doubt I would ever take medicine on a squishy even if the interrupt were removed, because it's far too likely they would be mezzed when they wanted to use it.
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2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:
I always get hasten, combat jumping, tough and weave. All of them. Those are givens to me.
Which sure, points to game design issues. Somebody should have addressed those a long time ago. Back before they became ingrained in how people play and build.
I am in the same place with the addition maneuvers. Willing to bet those 5 are the single most popular pool powers by a wide margin.
There's lots of things that could be done to fix that though. Buffing the defense sets so they didn't need Maneuvers and Weave as much, improving aid self so it didn't have an interrupt (don't care if you have to nerf the other effects a heal that doesn't work is pointless). Don't know what you would do for the presence pool. Sorcery would maybe make rune of protection something that could be permed (once again don't care if you have nerf other parts of it)
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4 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:
Yes they have significantly low impact...because they're fecking awful AND EVERYBODY KNOWS THEY'RE AWFUL...which if you buff them...means more people might play them..which means they may make more of an impact.
Quoted for truth man. speaking of that I'd love to see how many people slot boxing with anything but a kinetic combat set. Most of the power pools are just plain awful and even the ones in the "good" pools are pretty bad.
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2 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:
This is the results from 9-25, clearly the people that don't want Hasten changed are speaking the will of the people, so we win.
Vox populi vox dei.
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7 minutes ago, Haijinx said:
I would actually agree Hasten is too good.
I'd totally have been against it, you know, back in beta.
Maybe. I can see how that case could be made, but there's lots of other things that would need to changed maybe even the whole concept of recharge in the game.
That said, If you are going to say hasten is too good, I gotta say the ability to softcap defense while hardcapping resistance is completely bonkers by comparison. You can literally build a character with hundreds maybe low thousands the amount of survivability of character that hasn't gone that route.
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They were forbidden on live because they did little but upset people, and even in the best case, that there was a real issue that needed to be fixed left a giant gulf of bitterness.
There's little to no change on homecoming.
Possible exceptions would be where there has been a meaningful effort by the author to demonstrate why something "NEEDS" to be done.
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1 minute ago, Steampunkette said:
The Paralysis of Lists is the same in any argument. "We can't fix X until we fix Y." when Y has nothing to do with X. I.E. Y is not a component of X.
Also known as the "Zero Sum" game.
You can't actually fix anything until you have a clear and meaningful definition of what fixing something means or what broken is.
So far you have tossed out that
1) too many people take it (after saying not enough people take it so there's no need for other options) so it should be removed
2) too many people take it so screw with it and add another power that may or may not have a net zero effect )color me confuseled)
3) It somehow violates game balance (no mention of what game balance is meant to be, or just how it violates it)
I suppose game balance is like porn and the supreme court, you know it when you see it, unless it's art.
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DELETE Hasten, SLIGHTLY ALTER all enemies, SLIGHTY ALTER all player powers
in Suggestions & Feedback
Posted · Edited by TheAdjustor
Just means you need 3 kins on a team, which oddly enough will also provide all the endurance you would need as a result.
My guess is they knew this would happen and were comfortable with it as long as it was part of team play. The problem is they completely misjudged the desires of the player base. I forget who said it but "If I wanted to be forced into teaming up to kill open world minions I would be playing Aion". People in this game wanted to be powerful standalone.