MM Bots/Traps/Mace

[tidge]

4 hours ago, Raikao said:

 

Very well put together. I can only concur. Traps is good, surprisingly even. One of those sets where on paper it doesn't look impressive but then you place all your stuff down and the mobs just vomit themselves to death while nothing hurts you. It's weird but effective.

 

One of the things I like best about /Traps (and synergizes well with Robotics) is that with a number of AoEs in the secondary it is possible to keep a LOT of attention off of the (ranged attack) henchmen. Robots with the FFG are possible to defense cap, but zero attacks against them can be even better. Obviously I appreciate that /Traps has a number of very skippable powers too, as it allows for more expansion into power pools.

 

The one weakness I think Robots/Traps has is this: even with high defenses, excellent resistances and the Maintenance Drone, plus whatever heals the Protector Bots may toss out, it is possible in some fights to get into a sort of cascading loss of henchmen leading to cycles of summoning/buffing. By my crude estimate, this is something like less than 2% of all fights, and it almost always involves something like a single AV/GM that uses a quick sequence of AoE attacks which include some sort of debuff and/or control. The control bit is more problematic for the MM itself, because if the MM loses the aggro most of the henchmen can stand up against the extra single-target attacks from the enemy.

 

Nearly all of the time, 'good driving' of the henchmen is enough to avoid/recover from this sort of cascading situation... but it can be busy. In early (pre-50) levels, and especially on live, I believe this is one of the things that made /Dark such an appealing secondary (especially for Robotics)... there are a couple of different ways to have spam healing as a completely secondary effect. /Time continued this... but /Marine takes it to an entirely different level! /Marine is essentially offering (for MMs) everything I find appealing about both Traps and Time secondaries.

[Raikao]

17 hours ago, tidge said:

 

One of the things I like best about /Traps (and synergizes well with Robotics) is that with a number of AoEs in the secondary it is possible to keep a LOT of attention off of the (ranged attack) henchmen. Robots with the FFG are possible to defense cap, but zero attacks against them can be even better. Obviously I appreciate that /Traps has a number of very skippable powers too, as it allows for more expansion into power pools.

 

The one weakness I think Robots/Traps has is this: even with high defenses, excellent resistances and the Maintenance Drone, plus whatever heals the Protector Bots may toss out, it is possible in some fights to get into a sort of cascading loss of henchmen leading to cycles of summoning/buffing. By my crude estimate, this is something like less than 2% of all fights, and it almost always involves something like a single AV/GM that uses a quick sequence of AoE attacks which include some sort of debuff and/or control. The control bit is more problematic for the MM itself, because if the MM loses the aggro most of the henchmen can stand up against the extra single-target attacks from the enemy.

 

Nearly all of the time, 'good driving' of the henchmen is enough to avoid/recover from this sort of cascading situation... but it can be busy. In early (pre-50) levels, and especially on live, I believe this is one of the things that made /Dark such an appealing secondary (especially for Robotics)... there are a couple of different ways to have spam healing as a completely secondary effect. /Time continued this... but /Marine takes it to an entirely different level! /Marine is essentially offering (for MMs) everything I find appealing about both Traps and Time secondaries.

 

So there is something I have not considered yet. You talk about loosing aggro (and probably that the "can't" stand up to the extra single target damage - I assume a typo there). And thinking about it, those are the times I get in trouble, but how do you actually keep the AV/Elite Bruiser Boss from just one-shotting a drone? Because that does happen to me.

[tidge]

5 hours ago, Raikao said:

 

So there is something I have not considered yet. You talk about loosing aggro (and probably that the "can't" stand up to the extra single target damage - I assume a typo there). And thinking about it, those are the times I get in trouble, but how do you actually keep the AV/Elite Bruiser Boss from just one-shotting a drone? Because that does happen to me.

 

Yes, it should read as "henchmen CAN'T take single-target hits" (at least not when not at full Health).

 

Typically, once I have all three tiers of henchmen: I don't worry about losing a single henchmen. I'll do what I need to do on the MM cycle, and then resummon. If the thing I'm fighting is problematic with cones, I try to reposition the henchmen out of the cones, but rarely does that make a big difference. My Robotic MM has crazy good defenses for itself and the henches, so for almost every fight against a big baddie, I somewhat know how long before the critter gets an auto-hit against something. The slightly more problematic times are when:

1. The critter gets a 'lucky' AoE hit against everything in my arsenal
2. The henchemen haven't all quite server-registered as 'within range' for Bodyguard (or the Global Uniques), so only a fraction of the henches take a blow given to the MM
3. The critter hits the MM with a relatively long-duration control, delaying the MM getting/keeping aggro

There is nothing to be done about #1, and #2 is more about being patient. #3 isn't that much of a problem if fights are going smoothly.... but there are some regular enemies like Jack in Irons that will sequence AoE as well as debuffs and controls that can sour a fight. I think his fear lasts for 20 seconds on my main MM, and while (one of?) his stun is a shorter duration it isn't trivially short.

 

Keeping the aggro (on the MM, to leverage Bodyguard mode) is pretty important... at least in my experience. FWIW, I don't like the 5-max-target Provoke from the Presence pool as it has too few potential targets. I rely on MM AoE attacks with a %-Res debuff and/or knockdown (which also helps with patches). Traps happens to have Caltrops and Acid Mortar that can also distract enemy critters over time, plus the Poison Trap's AoE control potential.

[Raikao]

2 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

Yes, it should read as "henchmen CAN'T take single-target hits" (at least not when not at full Health).

 

Typically, once I have all three tiers of henchmen: I don't worry about losing a single henchmen. I'll do what I need to do on the MM cycle, and then resummon. If the thing I'm fighting is problematic with cones, I try to reposition the henchmen out of the cones, but rarely does that make a big difference. My Robotic MM has crazy good defenses for itself and the henches, so for almost every fight against a big baddie, I somewhat know how long before the critter gets an auto-hit against something. The slightly more problematic times are when:

1. The critter gets a 'lucky' AoE hit against everything in my arsenal
2. The henchemen haven't all quite server-registered as 'within range' for Bodyguard (or the Global Uniques), so only a fraction of the henches take a blow given to the MM
3. The critter hits the MM with a relatively long-duration control, delaying the MM getting/keeping aggro

There is nothing to be done about #1, and #2 is more about being patient. #3 isn't that much of a problem if fights are going smoothly.... but there are some regular enemies like Jack in Irons that will sequence AoE as well as debuffs and controls that can sour a fight. I think his fear lasts for 20 seconds on my main MM, and while (one of?) his stun is a shorter duration it isn't trivially short.

 

Keeping the aggro (on the MM, to leverage Bodyguard mode) is pretty important... at least in my experience. FWIW, I don't like the 5-max-target Provoke from the Presence pool as it has too few potential targets. I rely on MM AoE attacks with a %-Res debuff and/or knockdown (which also helps with patches). Traps happens to have Caltrops and Acid Mortar that can also distract enemy critters over time, plus the Poison Trap's AoE control potential.

 

So doing damage is enough to keep aggro on myself, since with Bodyguard I'm way sturdier than a single minion. I'll keep that in mind for my reworks of some of my builds to make them exemplar down better. Makes me want to take Whitecap earlier on /marine as well. I did struggle with mobs going after minions more than me when all I had is Corruption and Lash. Less so on /Time but that's probably because of the constant AoE -ToHit Aura drawing aggro pretty well. On lower levels that is. 

[tidge]

I haven't player Marine on a MM... but I love Whitecap on my Controller. Despite how much fun it can be, my initial thoughts for a MM would be to deprioritize it, or at least slot it differently, for reasons. Mileage varies of course.

 

The absolute best thing Whitecap has going for it IMO as far as MMs go is the AoE -Resistance effect... 30 seconds is an eternity for henchmen. Looking at the build I posted above (Robots/Traps) I'd find it hard to sacrifice a primary -Regen attack, so I might give up an Epic pool completely to fit in all the good stuff that Marine has to offer.