Deuce Spade
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Posts posted by Deuce Spade
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6 minutes ago, arcane said:
Scrappers don’t need help looking good next to Brutes at all
I was mystified by the "scrappers are nerfed brutes" thing too, but he's probably measuring the class differently than I am.
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5 minutes ago, Aurora_Girl said:
@Bill Z Bubba I would like to state for the official record that you are never the target of my snark ESPECIALLY regarding the "too lazy to move" point. That's a general (if overgeneralized) complaint I have with the melee community at-large, borne mostly out of their blanket distaste for knockback. 😛
Ah, well as long as you aren't disparaging Bill. That's the important thing here.
See? More light sarcasm, and no vitriol.
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16 minutes ago, A Cat said:
Are scrappers actually bad?
No, they are pretty great.
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19 minutes ago, Aurora_Girl said:
I agree wholeheartedly with this idea, but I am not the expert to determine the actual math of it. I'm way more of a "feels" guy.
29 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:That's fair enough. I do often lean too far towards the assumption that someone is referring to me when their comments are not directed, but leveled towards a group with whom I agree in spirit, if not in attitude or word choice.
I saw those comments leveled at you and they were also useless, petty, counter-productive. I am sure you can also see how, as someone who both disagrees with you and is trying to discuss these questions constructively that when blanket accusations of "supermansplaining" are leveled upon those with which you disagree that I too would feel as attacked as you did from the comments leveled at you, directly, by others:
There's nothing disingenuous about my position. I would love to see scrappers actually have their own play-style that differentiates them.
Technically true. Scrappers are *already* Nerfed Brutes With RNG Burst Dmg. To answer the remaining questions:
1. I wouldn't know. I don't team with teams who routinely refuse players based on AT or Powers selection. I have no problems with people looking for a particular team composition for theme or challenge play, but as a matter of course if a PUG team is being picky about AT/Sets I know to run away quickly. 😉 I suppose another exception is a team nearly full looking to fill a gap - nothing wrong with that either. I think we all know the line I'm drawing in the proverbial sand here. 😄
2. Yup. Psi/SD routinely pulls aggro away from Tanks and Brutes. On the road to 50 so did the Savage/Invuln. Kat/Rad, same story. Pulling aggro off tanks all day long. The only reason it doesn't cause issues is the lack of difficulty in the high end game. I have a distinct feeling that when people are doing no incarnate runs and Relentless DASF it will be much more noticeable. In the case of the DASF, there are enemies there one will want to chase down with extreme prejudice and a taunt aura isn't going to make one bit of difference in their behavior. As a sign of things to come, the mechanical efficiency of auto-taunt may decrease with new content.
3. So, in this theoretical situation there's also no Controllers or Doms, no Defenders or Corrs? "Tanking" is just a form of "Control" if one breaks down the core of the game far enough. I am missing something in this question. Scrappers should have taunt auras just in case a team can't recruit a brute or a tank? That doesn't really speak much for the perceived value of the AT.
So, I'll pose the same question again: Is there a series of +dmg changes to Scrappers in exchange for removing taunt from all secondaries that you would feel is balanced enough against Brutes without stepping on the toes of Stalkers?
I don't think scrappers need any more damage for any reason, really. They're probably doing a little too much right now for balance between ATs. While the pylon tests aren't indicative of real game situations, there shouldn't be so many scrappers out damaging stalkers, given their focus on single target damage.
Regarding point three, I'm not suggesting anything about scrappers needing taunt in case a tank isn't there. I was asking how much it disrupted play if a tank wasn't there.
Since most of the complaints about more scrappers getting taunt aura seem to revolve around tanks losing aggro, I have a couple more questions. Do other ATs pull aggro off tanks, or is it a scrapper-only phenomenon? Any blasters or stalkers or brutes ever have it happen? Just so there's no confusion about the point of my question - 1) I really want to know, and 2) the answer should help us identify whether taunt auras are indeed a problem with teaming, or whether tanks need a taunting buff, or if losing aggro occasionally to other ATs is part of the tank game that needs to be managed, in much the same way that people think runners need to be managed without a scrapper taunt aura
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22 minutes ago, Aurora_Girl said:
I stand by both my comments about scrappering harder (which is a joke about scrapperlock, which is a totally acceptable and I'd even say necessary mindset for true scrapper Nirvana), as well as a general distaste for the idea of being too lazy to hit "w" to move five feet to punch something.
That's fine. I didn't complain overly about it because this is the internet, and I could be reading tone wrong. Also, what you think about my playstyle or me isn't keeping me up at night, so carry on :-).
<edit> also, I'm still baffled that people think mobs running away adds a level of difficulty or a challenge, or fun. To me, it's just a pointless amount of extra time I spend, not a problem I have to figure out on the chessboard.
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15 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:
People who's primary focus is maximum mechanical efficiency will be bothered by it, mostly when solo. As it is a non-issue on teams, I don't see why the entire AT needs to be relegated to the role of "Nerfed Brute with RNG Burst DMG" simply for the sake of mechanical efficiency.
Having the taunt aura is also a non-issue on teams, or so I imagine, so I'm not convinced this changes the scrapper into anything. Do teams regularly refuse to take the scrappers with taunt auras now? Do those taunt auras keep tanks from holding aggro? If there is no tank on the team, do those taunt auras make things harder or easier for other players, or are they barely noticeable?
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1 minute ago, InvaderStych said:
Please stop making value judgements about what other people consider fun. Save that sort of vitriol for Facebook, it serves no purpose here. I don't think wading through static mobs that are racing to be the first to die in the swarm around me is all that fun or interesting, but you don't see me making derogatory comments about those who do enjoy that style.
Woah, I think you need to back up a second. If there were complaints to be made about tone in this thread, I'd be the one on high ground. There have been many, many comments suggesting people who want taunt auras were less than intelligent (jamoke) and bad players (need to scrapper harder) and lazy (had to touch my keys during combat).
Given that, I'll use light sarcasm as I see fit, and I suggest you give my comment another look, as there was no vitriol there at all.
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2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:
I do not. I have a claws/fire brute for farming and a fire/nrg tank that was an nrg/fire brute back before the snap. Fire armor is too squishy for me without tank values in non-farming content. I also don't have any dark, elec or ice scrappers. I didn't have regen either until creating the fire/regen scrapper the other day but that will probably just be slapped together on beta just so I can feel how horrifically weak it will be and deleted from live.
I have a fire/fire scrapper, a MA/SR, a StJ/DA, all at level 50. They are stripped of enhancements and retired, but I have them, and I played them. They are playable in a solo situation, and I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise, but they are definitely hindered by the lack of a taunt aura.
The difference is so noticeable that I can't make myself play the other sets anymore, and that's the only reason I want the change - I want to play them all without feeling like I'm spending extra effort and time. I want them to be reasonably close in performance to the taunt aura sets. I'm not interested in farming with scrappers (or anything else really, it's mind-numbing). I want balance between the scrapper secondaries for the same reason most posters here argue for other balance changes.
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2 hours ago, blue4333 said:
Honestly creating a taunt global IO usable by all ATs would probably stop enabling the messiah complexes that Tanks have.
I don't have a single problem with tanks, but that is an original and elegant solution.
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20 minutes ago, Aurora_Girl said:
Wouldn't the "takes enough damage to flee, but not to die" running mob be...an indication you're not scrappering hard enough?
Yes, that's definitely it. I am a noob and I need to learn to play.
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Course ... now I kinda want to make a fire/regen scrapper because that has to be the worst possible combo for a scrapper.
That was my last 50 on live. He was very fun leveling. Very engaging, and /regen is maybe the only secondary that wants mobs to leave.
QuoteI get the argument that sometimes it's nice to not have a taunt aura. It's because I get it that I would actually be ok if all the taunt auras were removed. It's certainly not my preference but at least it would be balanced.
Not my preference either, but I can't argue it would make more sense. If that happened I would just quit playing scrappers, and stalkers would be my melee dps choice. There is a reason they aren't as popular as other melee ATs, and it's lack of taunt aura (and ok, some sets with shitty AOE).
I was blown away that this topic generated such controversy, but I suspect it comes down to playstyle. People who mostly team, or team often, won't be as bothered by it. People who solo most often are going to be very bothered by it, particularly if they have high difficulty settings and mobs are more likely to hit that -health threshold instead of die.
<edit> and to be fair to other posters, there may be someone who genuinely likes running after mobs heading in different directions. It's baffling to me, but I guess it's a thing.
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14 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:
Personally, as I've said, I like the fact that some Scrappers have a taunt aura and some don't. However, I'd love some serious rocket surgery to explain to me why I'm wrong. Few things I love more than reading other people's work. 😁
This is a pretty good explanation about mobs running, and tracks with what I've observed and reported in this thread. It also explains why I see it more on /SR, as they both miss lots of attacks and hit the -health threshold.
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9 minutes ago, arcane said:
My Scrappers are /Ice, /Shield, /Nin, /Rad, and /Bio, off the top of my head. Purely for the record I don’t notice a damn bit of difference in my own play. Not to say it’s not a real thing.
If you're using the slow aura on /Ice (which I love), the only one that would perform noticeably different from all your other taunt auras would be /nin. I notice the problem most on damage aura secondaries without a taunt, but for whatever reason my AOE primary /SR toons also.
Do any of those other toons share a primary with your /nin guy? If so, you can make a half-assed comparison that way.
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To clarify, I don't think most people are experiencing runners the same way I am, judging by the offered solutions. I generally have a problem when I've wounded a large number of guys but not killed them yet. This happens with most AOE sets, and having a damage aura without a taunt component can compound the problem. A single target attack doesn't help me, with apologies to the ranged attacks in claws and spines. AOE damage with mitigation can be good and bad, depending on how many it leaves alive to tear off running and how fast it will recharge.
In reply to Bill above, I don't think it's worth the time. There hasn't been a genuine effort to discuss the problem from almost anyone, just disingenuous and condescending posts supermansplaining how to fight runners. Predictably, most of the answers aren't as comprehensive and effective as the post tone would suggest.
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There is one primary I can think of that could adequately stop runners, and that's ice melee.
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I've been hooked on Crusader Kings 3 during the pandemic. Between that and City of Heroes, I haven't really needed another game. CK3 may be my favorite computer game of all time, and I'm embarrassed about how many hours I've logged playing.
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2 minutes ago, arcane said:
Fair point RE: Provoke. Tbh I only take it on Masterminds.
RE: current scrapper taunt auras.. well frankly based on a number of dev comments and the illogical inconsistency of it all, my impression is that some scrappers currently have taunt auras *by mistake*.
RE: I know tanks aren’t technically needed in the current meta because of disastrous power creep, but if we are to really assume the game’s design does not intend to encourage the practice of tanking, why have taunt effects or powers *at all*?
I agree tanks are intended to be useful. They still can be, more in some cases than others. What I disagree with is the idea that taunt auras infringe on this and create an imbalance between the ATs that reduces the effectiveness of, or invalidates entirely, tanking ATs.
Scrappers had taunt auras, unless I'm remembering old INV incorrectly, from the start of the game.
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The thing that arguments in favor of provoke (or taunt) miss is that it's limited to 5 targets. The thing "brutes and not scrappers are designed to tank" misses is the presence of taunt auras on some current scrappers. It also assumes a need for tanks, and that scrappers will be stepping on tank toes.
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2 minutes ago, TheZag said:
I like that some scrapper secondaries have a taunt aura and that some dont. It gives me a little more variance in gameplay. But i started the topic about if you prefer power sets to be the same or different and this would make them the same so im probably biased on this topic.
That's a reasonable argument as far as I'm concerned. Personal preference not painted as anything else is perfectly valid.
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9 minutes ago, arcane said:
I’m not in the cogent argument mood sometimes.
Clearly.
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I had to look up jamoke to see that it's an insult, which does increase the sting, so well done. Most people arguing for taunt auras don't seem to be doing so out of a need for more influence, so I'm not sure why that was even brought up.
Since all you folks with "build around it" answers don't accept the argument that taunt auras make the game more fun, in that they reduce the frustration of chasing after otherwise weak and relatively non-threatening mobs in most cases, could you show me how you're doing it? I propose you build one of these scrappers that overcome the runner problems, whether through use of provoke or slow or immobilize interface, and compare how effective it is against a scrapper with taunt aura. I'd like to see how effective your strategies are in a side-by-side comparison. If there is no significant difference (or even, say, a 10% variance) in clear times, I'll agree that scrappers have no need of taunt auras. If there is more, you guys agree that while the question of scrappers needing taunt auras isn't settled, that these arguments don't hold water.
The problem of difference between secondaries could be minimized by comparing the taunt aura of /EA with non-taunt /SR. Still apples and oranges, but with the dps increase of each being tied to recharge, it should be about as close as we can get. If someone has a better suggestion, I'm open to it.
You'd need the same primary, obviously, and the same pilot would reduce skill-based variance. I'd be genuinely interested to see how it turned out.
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I wish there was one T4 Destiny that had the taunt aura from Melee Radial, no matter where they added it. I'd be able to enjoy /SR and everyone else could keep chasing their beloved runners.
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I'm still curious about the arguments against taunt auras for scrappers. Bill covered the arguments for, but most "against" posts either a) /jranger or "no" or "let's not go down that road", b) involve some form of AT role or balance argument, where scrapper auras are invalidating tanks, or are a reason to buff brutes, or c) some variation of designer intent, where the player was meant to experience frustration chasing runners for choosing /SR over /INV or /EA.
Does anyone have a reason not listed here? I'd genuinely like to hear another perspective.
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I like the taste of your judges. It's nice to see some winners who look like superheroes.
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SCRAPPERS AND TAUNT
in Suggestions & Feedback
Posted
Not on topic, but I once broke my right pinkie punching my monitor soloing a Stalker after CoV came out. It is still bent funny to this day.