Neiska

Have to respectfully disagree here... I have made some VERY durable Crabbers, 45% DEF, 85% RES, flying, full ranged attacks, etc etc etc... not that many people build them that way, but its certainly possible. Was she killing things quickly? Heck no. But there were times when she was the most durable one on the team, including the brute/tanker. I have also had MMs that could survive things that that would wreck some of my tankers too. Now is that normal, standard, or typical? Heck no. But to say that its impossible to reach tanker-levels of durability with any other AT is just plain incorrect. I do hasten to add that your general point - that "most" don't get that tough is correct. But to say that nobody can or does isn't correct. Heck, I have seen a Shield Scrapper Tank Recluse before.

I've found that if you just lower it to +3/8 then most changes are largely rendered moot. Just don't make as much per map, but my builds are just as effective. Honestly that's my biggest tip. They are making it too much of a slog to farm +4/8 to be worth the time. I clear more maps and make more money at +3 in an hour of farming than +4.

While I don't disagree, this means that some powersets will rarely be seen or used on any AT. I would rather have a few powers be too strong than some not be strong enough. Just as certain niche builds or situations aren't reasons to nerf an entire AT. People are pointing to the Tankers damage, when on teams, a tankers damage doesn't really compare/matter as much. This change affects solo play more than it does team play, IMO. So, in a way, it feels as if they are kind of nerfing solo tanking because of what damage a tanker can do when compared to other ATs. But nobody ever compares other things like durability among the ATs in order to make changes/edits. Its only damage that gets fiddled with. Never DEF, Res caps, etc. For the damage that some ATs can do, they are far too tough IMO. But that's not a conversation anyone wants to have apparently.

Know what? Fair. My main concern is that changes affect different powersets differently. And that the top performing sets aren't as impacted as the lower performing sets. Off the top of my head, this affects Super Strength, Fire Melee and Spines more than say, Energy or Kinetic Melee? And some, like a Spines Tanker, well, their AoE is really their only selling point. They are rather subpar for anything else but AoE. The only thing that really made spines good on a tanker in the first place, was the increased targets. With this change? I expect spines to drop to close to the bottom. I think this change is heavy-handed in reference to how it applies to all tanker powers, when not all tanker powers are OP currently. If they had a change that mainly focused on the problem sets, I wouldn't be so concerned. But that isn't the case.

This you? I kid I kid, in seriousness thank you for your service.

Having played Masterminds, Tankers, Corruptors, SoA's, etc, several of which beyond 300+ vet levels, I think I have a pretty good grasp about the difference in time needed to clear the same content among different ATs and builds. Your personal experience may be different, but that is your mere personal experience. Just as my DPS finishing much faster than my tankers is mine. Neither of our personal experiences over-ride each others. No, I'm really not. And blasters having two full sets of attacks is only part of it. If you have enough recharge, depending on the power set, you might not even use the other set all that often. And, again, no, I'm not, as DEF caps are only one small part of what makes a characters durability. Resistances, Hitpoints, resists to debuffs, etc etc all play a part. If all it took to do everything was reach 45% def, well most powers wouldn't even be needed and we could all call it a day. And blasters are hardly the only DPS in play here. Scrappers, Stalkers, Corruptors, Widows, can all effectively lap tankers, many of which can be close to a tankers durability. Scrappers and Stalkers both "tanking" are a thing. Not a common thing mind you, but its "possible" nonetheless. /Shield in particular. You are downplaying the differences not only in time, but neglecting to consider the different activities here. I mean if its a race, stalkers beat everybody on some missions. To put it into perspective, if some stalkers or scrappers can go toe to toe with Recluse, then why isn't there some huge outcry to nerf that? If you can put together an entire team of corruptors and just take turns popping ageless/barrier and absolutely destroy even hard modes without tankers/brutes at all, then what's the point? Its certainly not for any sake of balance or fair play. What I suspect is more likely in play is that someone clever took a design and used it in a way that wasn't intended or thought of, and instead of addressing the particular case they "fix" the entire AT itself, even if it severely punishes builds that "don't" do that. I mean, what are Tanker Secondaries that are already behind going to do? Just fall even further behind. To further simplify it - they are selectively addressing certain things that can be seen as broken, or too powerful, and all but ignoring or even encouraging others. Of all the broken things in this game, I wouldn't have even put tanker AoE in the top 10. Teams? Largely moot since any DPS will obliterate entire spawns of enemies even before that supposedly concerning tanker AoE comes into play. Any DPS can blow their BU, get a good chance at a proc, pop their T9, and wipe out 90% of the spawn in less than 10 seconds. And somehow, a tanker being able to hit more than other melee is suddenly so unfair? I mean, you can make a Scrapper tough enough to rip through +4/8 content in much less time than a Tanker could, and if both survive as easily then the tankers superior durability is largely moot, where the scrappers damage is not. Kind of like how they came down hard on spines/fire brutes, just because there were so many of them at one time. Now? I hardly see any at all. And some sweeping changes already have made a lot of people upset. And I don't think that is really a high priority for them at this point. You and I will likely disagree on this. And that's okay. But just as you are free to support it and certain playstyles, others are certainly free to not support them. And I am getting rather tired of DPS being the only measuring stick to end-all-be-all and comparing one specific AT to another as the only metric, and using the most extreme builds as justification to nerf the entire AT itself which affects the powers that AT has unequally. (The weak stuff just gets weaker when they try to make the strong stuff normal.) PS - the point of "if they change that, people will leave" really isn't justifiable, as it was used for several other things such as the AE changes, and they still happened. I honestly doubt they are overly concerned if they make a change and people get upset about it at this point. I've certainly never seen any of them specifically address such an issue. Some people will keep getting hosed, while others get to keep their cake and eat it too.

And to that I say is part of the problem. Not that people feel that way, that its now seen as a "feature" rather than something that arguably should be corrected. If we are going to discuss over the pretense of balance, how are Glass Cannons with enough defenses to obliterate hardest difficulties balanced to the opposite end of the spectrum where it takes a tanker 3-5x longer to do the same thing? If both can be equally survivable, and the tanker has excess, why is not the excess DPS if we want to call it that, reigned in as well? My theory? It isn't about balance. It's about pushing the meta to "gotta go fast." Things barely hit hard enough to even warrant a tanker, unless you are on hard mode. A DPS can just enter a mission with a tray full of purples, pop one, and just go to town, while the Tanker does not have the same option. Popping a Red will not make a Tankers dps on par with the DPS, not even close.

Without opening a whole can of worms that is the Farming/AE topic, all I will say about it is that the big brains in the farming community have already figured out how to farm with each AT. And that most of us no longer share or report tricks/op/broken things we find, mostly due to the heavy handed-ness of whoever makes decisions. It's very much a "if you know then you know" sort of situation now. Luckily my favorite "broken things" remain to this very day. So I do get to enjoy those gems in light of what I consider over-correction/nerfing.

1. I wish I shared your confidence. Each time I thought "no way they are really going to do that" I was disappointed. 2. Challenge accepted. Maybe if I post farming guides on builds/ATs that I don't like, they will get hit with the nerfbat too.

While I agree with your points, I do want to show perhaps another side of the coin so to speak. Not making the case that this IS the situation, only what might become the situation. In another game (For those wondering its ESO), tankers are effectively just big blocks of hitpoints that buff their party, and debuff the enemies. Their damage is inconsequential. They do literally minor damage compared to everyone else's. Tankers are only needed for multi-party targets. The DPS do so much damage, that even 5 man team bosses are completely obliterated. So what ends up happening is people cue for tanks who are not tanks at all, just to run the mission and finish as fast as possible. The biggest downside to the whole situation is that actual raid level tanks are few and far between, not from just experience and practice, but from desire. In that game it SUCKS to solo tank, even to solo quest because the damage is so terrible. Now I am not saying this is the case for CoH, only that kind of philosophy is what lead to that games situation. They made tanks completely irrelevant aside from being able to take hits, and aggro. So much to the point that very few people have any desire to play them. Sure, tankers should be tough! But they should be able to solo and do other things too and not take 10 years to do it. And the way things are going, it wouldn't surprise me in the last if this is how things turn out. Looking over all the changes since HC got popular, it certainly seems the devs have a specific design in mind. (Only some builds/sets/ATs are allowed to be overpowered.)

The changes is not "flat" (IE constant) damage nerf, it is during periods of self-buff like rage/build up. But the way I read it, the change to cones and diminishing over cap damage is a constant.

Personally, I think if they are going to handicap Tanker damage, then IMO they should look at DPS survivability stats. I mean if they can get 70% of what a tanker gets, the tanker should get 70% of their damage then, right? (Not speaking literally here, just an example for context.) Out of all the games I have played, the "glass cannons" here do not feel "glass cannon" at all. They can do absurd amounts of damage and still feel fairly durable. At least able to take a few hits, and in this game that's certainly enough to clear rooms. As far as Tankers? I felt they were in an okay spot. And I would be okay with "some" of the changes, but not all of them together. Either the nerf to target cap damage or reduced everything else. but all of them together seems fairly harsh. Do agree with the sentiment of - instead of nerfing tankers, give people reasons to play brutes. I remember when it was hard to find a tanker do to things with. Some of the hardcode teams don't even use tankers, they just take turns popping incarnates. If you ask me, those kinds of shenanigans are more game breaking than tankers AOE damage ever could be, but that's just me musing.

There is a p2w vendor in open world, like atlas park. And one in pocket D. You dont need access to a sg base to buy them. Its kind of a band-aid, but still it helps, especially in the early levels.

Fair! And one important distinction that someone pointed out to me - this is during "self buff", like rage or build up, NOT a flat base reduction. Which still kind of sucks, but just not as bad. Honestly the only one that bums me out is the diminishing AOE. Thats the one that sucks IMO. The rest not so much.

Speed? Fun? Challenge? Farming Badges? Kill Count Missions? Lots of reasons more than just AE/Farming. And I am not at all concerned about balancing around +0/0 going one group at a time, spawn by spawn.