Neiska

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Guess you didn't read the message hon, it was more of a "screw your memorial, our Nosferatu deserves his own castle" It was a compliment/joke. 😆

*Drops something in @Snarky's donation box*

Nemesis plot.

Don't forget Inf spent/budget. That matters as well. A 20m build is not going to be anywhere close to one that's 600m, no matter how skilled the player might be.

I do really appreciate all the time thought and effort that you put into this @Maelwys, and I agree with most of your points and overall presentation. But a few things do kind of stick out to my mind that usually remains un-addressed in any balance discussion. (But not for any part of us the posters, but mostly because they are questions that really can only be answered by the Dev's). 1. A side-by-side comparison of ATO's and Inherent really isn't complete. Some ATs have perks certainly, but often some ATs with what's considered the worst ATOs are often the best. Lets take Brutes for example - Brutes are still provide one of the best newbie-friendly ATs, and are easily capable of soloing +4/8 and most if not all power pairings, despite having objectively bad ATO's. 2. If they went and just changed the ATOs and didn't change anything else, I fear we might encounter another instance of over-correction like they did with tankers, or worse, over-nerfing things. Some things they might break entirely. 3. In order to properly "balance" things, then we have to know where the finish line is, or what their metric is for the finish line. A few subpoints here - 3a. I think we all agree that it isn't balancing on +4/8 difficulty. At a guess, I would presume they balance more around 2/8 or 3/8 because pretty much everyone can complete those even on a budget. (And to me any who couldn't, would be the spotlight for who/what needs improvement) But that is just me musing. I believe they put their "bar" below max difficulty, and balance on that. Anything that goes beyond that is ignored... up and until a certain point. Anything that goes too far past that gets, well, let's call it "laterally demoted." 3b. Also if they are balancing on solo vs team play. Things that are strong or very desirable for teams, may not be the best solo, and vice versa. The same could be said for killing lots of things quickly, vs killing the big things. Builds that are great at bursting lots of things down, are not the best at soloing AVs, GMs and so on. And the things that are the best at soloing the biggest of things, are not the best at killing quickly or even for team play. And to me, this is honestly a good thing. No one should be the best at everything or multiple things. So a good build is really about picking what you want to be really good at, and doing the best you can at everything else. 3c. Also some things that some people say are "strong" are only strong in certain contexts or situations. For me a good example is Crabbermind. They do fantastic, both alone and on teams. ....To a certain point. But if you like to solo hard difficulty alone, you are going to have a bumpy time. Not the worst mind you, others are far worse off, but soloing +4/8 EBs on my crabber was very tedious. After several (20+) different builds and attempts, I did finally make one that is decent at soloing that difficulty. But it really requires outside the box building for a VEAT. And so far she works quite well. Point is, I hope people take their "strong in what contexts" into account when saying X or Y thing is Good or Bad. 4. Honestly, if it was up to me, the first order of business wouldn't be balancing the AT side of things, it would be balancing the enemy side of things. Even on the hardest difficulty, I don't feel like most things hit very hard. The Alpha strikes can bruise sure, but after that, if I can survive the alpha strikes then 9 out of 10 times I know I got the fight in the bag, the only real question after that is how long it takes. But yea, IMO the hardest difficulty doesn't hit hard enough. Not talking Hardmodes or special mechanic fights mind you, I am talking just random +4/8 missions. The raids and such require knowledge and practice. If you know the fight you can pretty much do it with almost any team if everyone is just doing it correctly. 5. I hate to bring it up, but it's almost always brought up in some circles about balance - Pylons. Personally, I use pylon times as a ball-park figure or a rough idea, not something to bet the farm on. Some treat it like its unquestionable or selective in its controls/tests though. And while I am no big brain, at a guess I would say that Devs at least take pylon times into some consideration when they change damage stuff. Again, also not something I agree with personally, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did. It is free data after all. 6. And as others before have mentioned that I also agree with, I think what they balance things around the MOST is simple popularity. What is played the most? Thats what they change, for good or bad. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, but in this case the squeak is the most popular things being played. Think back to 5 years ago, what did we see quite literally everywhere? Titan Weapons/Bio of various ATs - Tankers, Brutes, Scrappers. Still see some now and then, but not nearly as many as there once were. Lots and lots of Spines/Fire too, but this was mostly due to the farmers. And after the changes, I have pretty much given up any hope of Spines ever being competitive in any manner, no matter how much I like the style and feel of the set. Don't hardly see any Spines or Fire Armor outside of farming while out and about doing random team stuff. Pretty much the only time I see it is in the AE. But yea, if something gets too popular or too overplayed, they are going to change it. Usually make it worse in some manner. As far as what's currently bottom? Well, I am not sure if they honestly care. Or at least, I very much doubt its in their top-10 todo list, much less a priority. Some things that are bottom have been on bottom for a very long time now, or are only bottom in certain circumstances, and that seems to be enough reason to leave it alone. Again, just me musing after seeing how they change things after 5 or so years of playing on HC. Anyway, just my two cents. Comparing ATOs and Inherent is a good start, but not the only things I would want everything to be balanced around. And before any re-balancing would have to be seriously done, we would have to know what the devs point of reference or "finish line" is.

I don't see as forcibly turning off or changing other people's powers to be a "Synergy." A synergy is a compromise. That isn't a compromise. Am open to suggestions, so long as they are entirely optional and at the players discretion. But as spoken by others already, if such an "option" even was suddenly available, it would then go suddenly from option straight to obligatory, such as the KB to KD option has become among some.

Except that both parties have options. Here are your options - 1. Don't agree to join a team with people with said powersets. 2. Don't invite people to join your team with said powersets. 3. If you see someone using said powersets, you are free to leave the team. 4. Ask them to stop, and if they do not, then tolerate it. 5. If you are the leader, you are free to eject people from the team. Here are their options - 1. Slot KB->KD enhancement. (I stress this is an option. Not a requirement.) 2. Decide not to use said powers, either by choice or when asked. 3. Ignore the complaints and continue to use said powers. Neither side is holding you at knifepoint forcing either side to play with one another. And instead of using your own options within the situation, you go for the nuclear option of "it needs to be removed entirely" rather than exercise what is within your own control. See, you have it within your own current ability, to remedy the situation. So do other people. And for all these examples of "bad" KB users, no one is stopping to think (or even notice) the polite folks who could but choose not to. So, I agree, let's be honest here. You are in no way forced to endure anything you don't wish to be. You can leave. But, instead of that, you would rather the devs take the heavy handed approach and simply remove that option for everyone entirely, rather than using your own options to remedy the situation yourself. Which to me, speaks that it isn't about knockback at all. I suspect its similar to the AE argument - that some people who choose not to use something (for whatever reason) wish to take the option away from other people who do. Which isn't about community at all, but control. IE - "I don't like or approve of this thing, so nobody should." And I don't mean "you" personally Solarverse. Speaking rhetorically here. And, if I may get philosophical for a moment, no matter what your reasoning or justification, I will never support taking options or choices away from people. To me, it's like Free Speech - I may not agree with what you have to say, but I agree with your right to say it. Even if it's something offensive, wrong, or mean-spirited. You still have the right to say it. (At least in my country, and I am in no way suggesting that KB is a right. Only drawing comparisons here.) People have the right to make their own choices and decisions. Even if you think they are wrong. Even if the world thinks they are wrong. People have a right to be wrong. It's how people learn - from other's wrongs. Take away that opportunity to become better, then we will never improve beyond where we are now.

Disagree. And no amount of "but my gameplay" or "it makes me so mad" or "team dynamics" is going to be the moral high ground. Still making a mountain out of a molehill here. Lots of things and playstyles "negatively impact" others, but there isn't a crusade to curtail any of them. If I am on a tanker and someone does KB, I shrug and move onto the next. If I am on my MM and someone does KB, I shrug and move onto the next. If I am on my Crabber and someone does KB, I shrug and move onto the next. Not once, in nearly 6 years of playing, has a KB been so ill fated, so ill timed, so game altering that it caused a mission to fail. Or a even a team wipe. The only time I remember people making a big fuss out of it, was on a mothership raid because someone had repel on in the bowl. That is literally the only time I have heard a public outcry in game about it. It is not nearly as life altering as people are making it out to be. Oh no, someone died? That happens. A lot. And rarely is it KB's problem. Oh no, a mission took a bit longer to complete? ...So what? Big deal. I would bet that more time was taken writing some of these responses here. Oh no, someone is playing outside the team dynamic? ...again, happens all the time. A lot. And often. Now, "should" people play together? Sure. And most of the time, they do. But you might think from how some people present it, this is reaching to present something people have a personal problem with as this supposedly critically important change that needs to be implemented immediately. "They need to do something!" - they already have. They offered a knockback to knockdown option. But that's what it is, an "option." If people are still using knockback, well, spoiler alert - they are within their right to do so. Just as you are within your right to play whatever you like as well. "But people can troll with it!" - again, many tools can be misused. Phasing/intangible, fold space, PFF to name a few. The power itself isn't the problem. People are just using it in ways that annoy others to the extent that they want the fun police to swoop in and force change. People already have options. The fact that not everyone is taking them, should be a clear indicator of something. That not everyone agrees with the idea "KB is bad." Now, you have options too. You can kick someone (if you are the leader), you can stamp your foot and refuse to heal or buff or hold aggro or whatever. But they have those same options too. And both have you have the option to... wait for it... ...simply not play together. And here is the real solution to my mind. Because not everyone is going to want to play in the same way, have the same goals, go the same speed, play at the same difficulty, etc etc etc. This whole KB is but one small part of a multi-sided puzzle. And people are making way too much of a fuss about it, when the solution is already within their own means - simply not team with powersets like Energy Blast. And if this is supposedly the massive widespread plague some are making it out to be, then I question if said persons are lazy when making their teams. You don't want to see knockback powers? Don't team with the powersets that have them. Take the 3 minutes to put some thought into your LFG message, and to check peoples powersets, and poof - you will never ever have to see them again. Like magic. But instead of taking the time to do that, people would rather have the devs wave their magic wand and remove or change all KB. The problem with that is that this "fix" for your personal experience, is now taking away from others. When its within your own ability to remedy the situation, without negatively impacting others. And you can apply this to most parts of the game. "Don't like something? Don't do it/use it/take part in it."

Speaking only for myself, honestly? It depends on how they ask. Not just about KB, but about anything. If they politely "ask" (not demand, but ask) I am inclined to co-operate as long as they aren't causing problems on for me on my side. But if they are being just as annoying, like spamming chat, taking forever to talk to the contact for next mission, constantly running ahead and then griping when they splat and so on, I am far more likely to tell them to kiss me where the lord split me. To me thats just being polite. But, as seen as examples in this very thread, there is very much an attitude of "PLAY MY WAY OR GTFO" mentality, which I would argue is a far larger pressing matter than knockback. I go by "know the pool you choose to swim in." If you choose to put together a team of random people, that's what you get. Key word "random." Some are good. Some are bad. Some are experienced. Some are just learning. Some just plain don't care and want to flex their pixels or speed to the end as fast as possible. If you want a team or TF to go exactly how you want it, to specifications, as fast as possible, mastery badge runs, yadda yadda yadda, then maybe you need to build a team of friends for it. You are rolling the dice when you want to play at that level with random people. "Most" know what they are doing, some will not. And I would call that the normal state of things. And when I say "you" I don't mean you personally, I am speaking rhetorically here. But if someone is a controlling fun police jerk who is in a rush, well, that sounds very suspiciously like not my problem, and depending on their manners, I might be inclined to use the situation in a creative manner.

I don't disagree. Both are free to play as they like. Neither one gets to control the other, which is my entire point. Want to heal or not heal? Go right ahead. Want to KB everything into the sun? Go ahead. Neither is incorrect, wrong, or disallowed. Nobody is forcing anyone to play with anyone either. Don't like who you are teamed with? Make your own team, with your own goals and rules. Thats how we get some pretty awesome things like all tanker or all MM TFs and so on. But as far as "cooperation" goes, that is a two-way street as well. Demanding/expecting someone with KB to not use KB when it wasn't advertised they wouldn't be welcome when joining the team isn't "cooperation." If someone is so passionate about KB, then they should make it known when forming the team. And if someone (either one, the KB or the one complaining about that) leaves mid-mission because of that, I couldn't blame them either. Now, if the team was put together knowing beforehand KB was frowned upon, and then someone was doing it anyway, then ya they are a jerk. But call it a suspicion that isn't the case here.

Sure, and its your right to do so. Just as its their right to blow the next one away as well. A mature group would communicate, you know, just say "hey can you please stop KB so much?" like most adults. Not just presume they are being malicious about it. (I do want to add, i am pretty sure you fall into the normal adult category.) But so many here want to light their torches and grab their pitchforks for people just using powers as they are meant to. "You play MY way. Or ELSE" energy.

I thought some armor sets for scrappers did, like shield or bio? Even if its a weak taunt it's still a taunt right? Should keep some things from running? Never tried such a thing on a scrapper myself, am asking in earnest.

See, here's the thing.... ...They aren't "your" mobs, anymore than anyone else's. They aren't "yours" even if you CC'd them. Hard for some to understand, I know. And.. I'm fairly certain that posing as another person of the community isn't allowed. So I'll go ahead and report that. And can't say I'm surprised someone entirely focused on themselves would suggest such a thing.