Ultimo

Must be a level thing, then. By L22, none of my Controllers or Dominators are of much use to teams (or often, even to themselves). Perhaps by later levels that changes.

So... in my ongoing effort to make characters I like to play, often based on existing comic characters, I've tried out pretty well all the ATs. This has led me to wonder about the control specialists, Controllers and Dominators. What is their point? I mean, I know, they can control enemies... but that really seems like an irrelevant ability when facing minions and lieutenants, who typically melt like butter before the controls are actually useful. Moreover, most of their controls take the form of sleeps, which are usually immediately broken, or immobilizations, which don't really do anything to protect the group, as those enemies can still attack. Sure, Controllers have some support in their secondary, and Dominators have some blasts and such in theirs... but in each case, they're not really especially powerful, making them of limited use. I mean, Defenders have WAY more support ability, and both Blasters and Corruptors do WAY more damage. Indeed, both ATs are VERY low in damage output, and even lower defensively. So, I find myself trying to decide what exactly the point is of these ATs? Their primaries are of next to no use to groups, and their secondaries are of very limited use. Am I the only one wondering this?

Ya, I was looking at it in the character creator... but it's aesthetic just isn't quite working for me... A bit too crystally, and dusty, if that makes any sense. Right now, I'm trying a Peacebringer again, but I'm finding myself missing the controls and the team support abilities. I may have to go back to the Defender or Corruptor.

There are others... I believe there are darkness sets that do it, at least. I'd have to look. Another alternative is to put an aura on your hands (or wherever you like) that activates when you enter combat. Just clicking a power will put you in combat mode, which will activate the aura.

My Sorceror character uses Grav/Time. It's pretty fair, but doesn't quite feel like the Lantern. Electric Control was nice because he was creating constructs of electricity to contain foes, and that's very Green Lantern. Much of what he does is about making energy constructs. Neither Gravity Control nor Time Manipulation makes constructs. Force Fields kind of does, but it's so weak, and really doesn't help him solo. In fact, the only real reason I was taking Force Fields was for the PFF, which seems very in character.... but kind of a waste if the whole rest of the set is useless to me... and the PFF is very situational. So, still struggling with him. I'll get him to where I want him, it's kind of fun to experiment... if a bit repetitious.

And yet, Fire/Fire still looks awesome because it's spewing little sparks and flames that fall to the ground and persist for a few seconds. It's a minor, cosmetic, environmental thing that makes it LOOK more powerful than it is (indeed, I was convinced my Fire Dominator was actually doing decent damage because of it).

Uuuughhh. So, tonight I got on the Positron 2 task force with my Electric Control/Force Fields Controller, based on Green Lantern. Wow, what a painful experience. Three, four attacks, and he's OUT of endurance. Conductive Field is worthless, in part because I'm usually some distance away (having no defense), and partly because it seems to do essentially nothing. The team was rolling through whole groups of enemies in the time it took me to defeat ONE minion, and even then I was only barely able to do it. Just not any fun. I mean, the Electric Control set looks pretty awesome... but the performance is REALLY underwhelming. I also have been watching some episodes of Justice League Unlimited, and the Lantern just seems to hit a lot harder than the Controller is capable of doing. I mean, my Tanker hits enemies for 50-60 damage with his basic punch attack. My Controller's basic "blast" attack does around 5 damage (10 if the enemy is controlled, so against bosses, the hardest to hurt, I do the least damage possible). So, I believe I'll be abandoning the Controller experiment. He's just not capturing the combat style of the Green Lantern. So what are my alternatives? Perhaps I'll go back to the Defender...? I've been toying with the idea of doing Electrical Affinity and Electric Blast... but I don't know much about the former. It would be replacing Force Fields, which I have always been underwhelmed by. What say you all, what would you suggest, and what do you think about Electric Affinity?

Again, I know there's an enhancement that does what you say. I'm suggesting that the set needs a revamp, and this is one of the elements I think it should have. You don't want to have the option of knockdown or knockback, fine. I'll change my suggestion. Super Strength in the comics always does tons of knockback, so it should always do tons of knockback in the game. All Super Strength powers should always do lots of knockback. Is that better? No? I'm not sure what retcon you mean... unless you're referring to my suggested revamp? I've not read a recent Hulk comic, I'm really only familiar with comics before they went to crap. I'm not looking for more damage or anything. I'm suggesting that the set perform more like we see it in the source material. Attacks that are the result of hitting a target with a giant boulder or other object that takes up a lot of space... should be area effect. This makes it more useful too, of course, but the set is really short on AOE (as are many melee sets, but one thing at a time). I realize the environment can't actually be smashed up. That's not what I suggested. I said we could use some environmental COSMETIC effects, like debris, dust and rubble (as Stone Melee produces) as well as cracks on the ground and surrounding walls (if possible). Things like mailboxes and trees already produce stuff that flies around when certain effects occur near them, these should be happening when Super Strength attacks are happening nearby, too. None of that is ACTUALLY smashing the environment, it just LOOKS like it is. There's already a vague yellow shockwave on most of the attacks, imagine if a cloud of dust and debris accompanied it.

I don't have and can't afford any fancy special enhancements, and I'm sure I'm not alone. My suggestion would be doable with even normal enhancements. As it is, if I want to slot for knockback, I have to give up slotting for something else, which puts me at a disadvantage. That would be fine, except that Super Strength should be doing tons of knockback by default... because that's how it works in the comics and shows. Since lots of people wouldn't want that, I tried to come up with a way to give the set the effect it SHOULD have, without inconveniencing anyone who doesn't want that knockback. I'm trying to please everyone, if you see what I mean. The hand clap is used in the comics, usually by the Hulk... and it's kind of his finisher. It should be a big deal, but now it's kind of underwhelming. Watch the Hulk vs Saitama video, and watch for the hand clap near the end of the fight. It's awesome. WAY more that I was hoping for in this game, but it gives you some idea of what I'm after. I agree, ripping up more appropriate objects would be great. I'd be all in for that, I just don't know if it's possible. As far as I'm concerned, Hurl is ok, it just needs a couple of tweaks. First, it needs to be an AOE. It's a big rock, it takes up space. Second, it would be nice if it were bigger. I mean, it's a smaller rock than Stone Melee gets. Super Strength should look stronger, and it doesn't. Third, it should be available sooner. I mean, it's really the only power that lets us lift something heavy, and that's kind of the whole point of being super strong. It's iconic, and should be something we get earlier. The animations are ok, in general. Punch, with its one handed smash animation, is fine. Haymaker is fine with the two handed smash, but it's kind of misnamed, since a haymaker would be a long, telegraphed cross (more like Cross Punch or KO Blow). In fact, most of the animations are ok, except for Jab, which I'd drop entirely. As far as how the attacks look, it's more about how they interact with the environment. Again, watch the videos, there's TONS of collateral damage... windows smashing, dust flying, smoke and debris everywhere... just from the shockwaves of the punches. That's something kind of typical of super strong battles in the comics and shows. I'd just like to see some more of that kind of thing. As I say, I think the animations themselves are ok... both the original ones and the alternates (though the alternates look kind of awkward in some cases). I can have Hulkish smashes or Supermanish punches, and that's fine. It's the results of the punches that need tweaking.

Knockback and knockdown are functionally the same as a soft control. There is SOME difference if the enemy has to make his way back to you, or if you knock him off a cliff or something, but that's very situational. My goal was to allow players who don't want knockback to have knockdown instead, while players who do want knockback to have it. Super Strength wouldn't be getting something for nothing, there's already a knock effect, all we would be doing is changing WHICH knock. I wonder at the balance. The issue is that Super Strength is one of the original sets, and it's been kind of left in the dust. It's not BAD, performance wise, but it lacks the flavour of having actual STRENGTH. Hand Clap is a very thematic power, and it's one of the few. It's something many comic characters do, and it's always a very damaging power. My suggestion was to simply add a damage effect in a cone. Otherwise, it would remain unchanged. I really wasn't suggesting hurl as anything other than a boulder, because it would be hard to rationalize how that would work. I mean, you can rip up a chunk of rock from the ground, but pulling a car out of thin air? As I say, it's more a matter of presentation. I'd just like the set to FEEL stronger. A bit of a visual tweak, and some AOE would probably be enough. Even if they dropped JAB (which is a useless power and lacks ANY sense of being strong), and added a variation of Cross Punch a bit further up the chain (maybe make Punch the first power, then Haymaker, then Cross Punch?), that would be enough.

I'm sure it could be worked out, but let's leave that aside for the moment then, as it's not a change specific to Super Strength, and focus instead on my other suggestions.

Ah, I think I see. I hadn't considered sets and set bonuses, just basic enhancements. You're right, that also would need to be addressed. I suppose it could easily be done by making duplicates of the enhancements, so there would be identical damage and knockback options. My thinking is that if there are powers you want to actually knock foes away... you slot them for knockback. I don't know how you've slotted your cone power, but if you replaced the damage enhancements with knockback enhancements that did the same thing as the damage enhancement, but additionally made the power do knockback... I'm not seeing how it's any different that if it already did the knockback and you just put the damage enhancements in it. I mean: Power does knockback by default. You add damage enhancements, it does additional damage and knockback. This is how it is now. Power does knockdown by default. You add knockback enhancements, it does additional damage and knockback. I'm not seeing how this is any different. Power does knockdown by default. You add damage enhancements, it does additional damage, but only knocks foes down. This is the only thing that's different, and it's something you would CHOOSE. The idea here was to give people the choice.

Or Repulsion Field. I agree. Perhaps exceptions could be made for those kinds of powers. In either case, knockback should do a bit of damage, based on the distance knocked (even if the target doesn't travel the full distance), so it's a bit more desirable to have (and more in keeping with what we see in the comics). Any power you have is going to be slotted. Since I'm referring to attack powers, you're likely going to be slotting them for damage. So, if you don't want the knockback, you use damage enhancers. If you do want the knockback, you use knockback enhancers. If done as I suggest, the damage would be the same, you would lose nothing, and gain the choice of having knockback or knockdown. As it is, if I have no control over whether I have knockback or not. If I use knockback enhancers now, they take up slots that might have had other things in them. My idea simply allows you to have the choice and not use up the slots you might have used for damage filled with knockback enhancers that don't actually benefit you. I'm not seeing how you lose anything with this.

But that's why I suggested that knockback enhancers should also serve as damage enhancers. That way you can have knockback but not lose a damage slot.

I could see that... but Doom prefers not to get involved himself. He sends his bots out to do his menial tasks. Of course, when the heroes DO come up against Doom himself, he's a beast. Creating a character based on Doom is therefore troublesome. Yes, making him a Dominator could make him a beast, but he would have no minions to send off to do the work for him. Making him a Mastermind gives him the minions, but he himself is a fragile joke. It's hard to call. I'm actually stuck in this quandry with another of my Masterminds. He's supposed to be a former Nazi, turned sorceror corrupted by darkness. He would command soldiers to do his bidding, then when confronted personally, be a terrifying foe.... but he's not. He's squishy and flimsy and does practically no damage with anything. So, I considered making him a Dominator or Controller... but he just "feels" wrong, doing everything for himself. So hard to satisfy the concept (though I suppose fully doing so would be kind of OP).

My idea was to convert all knockback to knockdown. That would actually be HELPFUL on teams. Only those that specifically slotted to knock foes back would do so.

I agree, Super Strength is kind of THE superhero power, that's why I feel it should perform better, and more like the character is actually STRONG. The point I was making about knockback is that it IS problematic for many players. Slotting Knockback enhancers does nothing but take up slots I needed for other things. That's why I suggested knockback enhancers should ALSO enhance damage, so you could have the knockback without sacrificing your damage output. I also suggested that knockback should do a bit of additional damage so that it's more desirable. As you say, right now, people often don't WANT knockback, so it needed something to make people want it. The stun on Hand Clap is still very short when slotted... but that's kind of beside the point. The thing is, it does no damage at all, and it really should (it does when Hulk does it... it even does it when Statesman does it). Super Strength was indeed one of the first power sets created for the game, which is why it probably should be reevaluated. Compared to newer sets, it's kind of underperforming... but in my mind, the real issue is that it doesn't act like the character has STRENGTH.

I'm not sure quite what you're saying there... I think you're not quite getting what I mean for knockback? Essentially, a lot of people don't like it, because it knocks foes out of aoe range/melee range. For this reason, people don't really WANT knockback, and favour knockdown powers instead. However, there are some people (like me) who like knockback because it's more in character for the power set, as we see super strength regularly knocking foes around a lot. So, I was hoping to provide a mechanism to allow everyone to have what they want. By changing all knockback in the game into knockdown, people who don't want knockback can have it the way they like. Making knockback enhancers change the knockdown to knockback allows people who DO want knockback to have it. However, this does put people using knockback enhancers at something of a disadvantage. First, the knockback enhancers are taking up slots that would have been used by other kinds of enhancers. So, I suggested they also boost damage the way damage enhancers do, so that they can be slotted without hindering damage output. Second, critics of knockback are correct, knocking foes away can be very inconvenient, especially for melee characters. So, to compensate for this, I thought it appropriate to add a little damage to knockback. So, for example, one character using damage enhancers would do say... 50 damage with a punch that knocks his foe down. If he used knockback enhancers, he would do 50 damage, plus perhaps 10 more when the foe he's knocked back hits the ground (wall, car, whatever). This would benefit other power sets too, as they could avoid knockback. For example, my Electric Control/Force Field Controller has a lot of trouble because Jolting Chain and Force Bolt knock foes out of his area effect sleep power, or just out of range, allowing them to recover and attack him. My suggestion would allow him to just knock then DOWN instead with no loss of damage. I hope that's clearer.

I love it. My biggest complaint about Masterminds has been that the Mastermind himself is so weak. I mean, think about the kinds of characters we see in the comics who would be Masterminds... Dr. Doom, Red Skull, Nick Fury... They rely mainly on their minions, but are themselves forces to be reckoned with. Once you get past Doom's bots, Doom himself is VERY dangerous. Not here. Here, Doom is impossibly flimsy and has only one or two piddly attacks that exhaust him in seconds. So, I'm all for anything that might help the Masterminds... though I'd still like to see some love for the Mastermind himself, some boost to his personal attacks, and a reduction on endurance (which I'd honestly like to see for all ATs).

I don't like the Super Strength set... it just doesn't seem very STRONG. Now, I'm not referring to damage, I'm saying it does very little that requires STRENGTH. Sure we can punch things, but anyone can punch things. Sure, the punches can knock down, even knock back things... but LOTS of heroes without superhuman strength can do that. The problem is there's very little in the set that shows off great STRENGTH. Think about what we see super strong characters doing in the comics, films and so on. They lift heavy objects, stop runaway trains, break chains and smash through walls. Their battles are titanic, doing massive collateral damage to their surroundings, knocking their foes vast distances. The Super Strength set does very little of this. We get one heavy object to lift as part of Hurl, but even that is small compared to the boulder from Stone Melee or some of the objects Propel conjures up. Still, it's better than nothing. Hand Clap does look strong, but even that is hampered by the fact that it does no damage at all, and the stun it causes is very short. Finally we get Foot Stomp which does look and feel pretty strong... but it's really the only thing that does. To see how Super Strength should work, watch the Justice League Unlimited episode entitled "Clash," where Superman and Captain Marvel fight one another. They exchange punches, but doing so shatters windows and cracks the ground and walls around them, and each blow sends the target flying, often right through walls. They grab large objects, like a bus or a whole bank vault, and the smack each other with them. Or... watch this AWESOME video... Of course, the game engine doesn't allow us to interact with the environment, so we can't lift up cars or hit each other with trees or streetsigns. However, there has to be more we could do with the set to let it at least LOOK like the character possesses great strength. I envision three changes, ranging from the merely cosmetic to actually changing gameplay. First the easy one, there should be more environmental effects; cracks on the ground and walls, debris flying around, dust and rubble. It's simple and merely cosmetic, but would go a LONG way to improving the presentation of the set. Second, all knockback in the game should be changed to knockDOWN. Using a knockback enhancer would then convert knockdown to knockBACK. Further, knockback enhancers should also increase damage the way damage enhancers do (so you could use either for the same effect, the only difference being that knockback enhancers would add knockback). Since knockback is often seen as undesirable, something needs to be done to MAKE it desirable. Making knockback do a bit of additional damage, relative to the amount of knockback done (even if something stops them, like a wall, or if they're immune), would do this. These changes would allow people who don't WANT knockback to slot damage enhancers and leave it as knockdown, while those that do want knockback can have it and get a minor benefit from it. With knockback thus altered, all Super Strength attacks should do significant knockback when enhanced, in keeping with what's in the comics. Third, Super Strength attacks should do MUCH more damage to inanimate objects, like doors or vehicles. We see this in the media all the time, doors and walls being easily crushed or broken, vehicles smashed and tossed around. We don't want to take it TOO far, but super strong characters should be better at this than others. This might include semi-animate things, such as Clockwork, Pumicites and other animated creatures. Fourth, the set itself should be revamped. Many of the current powers are either useless, do nothing to denote strength, or both. The goal would be to reduce the number of punching powers and add more strength feats, including more AOE. Consider that a normal strength hero will usually hit one enemy at a time, but a superhumanly strong one might sweep several foes away at once. I'd set it up something like this... Punch - A basic single target punch, it should be more or less like the current Punch power. Animation either one or two hand smash. Haymaker - A basic AOE cone punch, it should function like Cross Punch. Hurl - The only lifting power in the set, it needs to come earlier. It should be the same as it is now, EXCEPT it should be an AOE. It's a big rock, after all. Taunt - As it is now, but a better animation? Rage - As it is now, but a different name? Perhaps as a toggle, that increases endurance costs as well? Hand Clap - As it is now, but in addition targets in a forward cone take moderate damage. Smash - This replaces KO Blow, does titanic damage and a LOT of knockback to the target, knocks down nearby foes. LONG recharge. Shockwave - Foot Stomp renamed. Super Strength is the single most common superhuman power in comic books... even in ancient mythology. It's ICONIC, and needs to be done right. It needs to be highly desirable and effective. I think the adjustments I've outlined above are fairly balanced, but some tweaking might be necessary. I think the idea is clear, though. Here's the scene from Clash, because it is also awesome...

Ya, my Mastermind based on Doom has that. The thing is, there's very little kind of personal defense. I envisioned the character having a globe around himself more or less all the time. I suppose I could put an aura on him and just define his having things like Weave and Leadership as being his personal shields...

So... Got the character to L19 now, Electric Control/Force Fields. However, I'm pondering the possiblity of switching to Electric Control/Electric Manipulation. Anyone know how that set performs? I also started a Peacebringer version of the character. I've never played a Peacebringer, but I kind of liked the fact he gets force fields for HIMSELF that the Force Fields set lacks. I mean, that he can actually use in combat. PFF isn't really much use in that regard. I find I'm missing the ability to support the team, though. One of the things the Lantern can do is project force fields around others (either to contain them or shield them), or use them to carry/manipulate others. The Peacebringer really doesn't have that. Obviously, no power sets are going to perfectly emulate the kinds of things the Lantern can do, but I'm still trying to find something that hits enough of the right notes to make it work for me. The Controller is pretty decent, but his damage and personal defenses are VERY weak. The Peacebringer does decent damage (so far, only L10), and has decent defenses, but has no real support ability. I thought of making him a Defender... but I really dislike them, their damage output is abysmal considering the endurance cost, and again with Force Fields, there's no personal defenses. Any thoughts?

ya, Jolting Chain is one of those powers that looks like a normal blast... but does next to no damage. In fact, there seems to be only ONE power, and single target at that, that does even halfway decent damage, and that's Tesla Cage. I think if they doubled the damage output on Jolting Chain, it would be pretty good. Still lower damage than Tesla Cage, but at least SOMETHING reasonable. Right now, my Tesla Cage does around 16 damage (twice with Containment) while Jolting Chain does 5. My enemies are routinely hitting me for 50+. A Werewolf from a door knock threw a boulder at me that did 188 damage (I have 255 health). That's rather a drastic discrepancy, especially when I have only ONE power capable of actually HOLDING him so he can't attack... and being single target, it leaves the Sorceress that appears with him free to zap me for around 80 damage. Oh, I was damaging her with my Chain Cages (or whatever it's called), but that does 5 damage to her 80... And heaven help you when facing anything that can't be held. A Troll (Jutal, I think), was slaughtering me in a bank mission because he was immune to my holds. I managed to immobilize him, but he threw a boulder that did 2/3 of my health in one shot. Hard to compete when you have no defense and no offense...

Hrm. Damage on the Electric/Force Fields is really low... And I don't even get to use Force Fields on myself. That's always been really disappointing. There are SO many heroes in the comics who use force fields for SELF protection, beginning with the likes of Green Lantern, but also Invisible Girl, Dr. Strange, Dr. Doom, Guardian (from Alpha Flight), Magneto, and on and on. It's too bad there's no Controller set that gives the Controller some sort of PERSONAL defense. The only one I do get is the PFF, which isn't really of much use, as it prevents me doing anything but being a bubble.

Actually, I'm rather enjoying the Electric Controls for the character... except the damage is REALLY anemic... and Force Fields isn't going to do anything to address that... I think just ONE decent damage dealer would be very welcome. Perhaps if they doubled the damage of Jolting Chain? It looks like a standard blast power, but it does practically no damage...