Blackjoy

Played SR back on Live and now again on Homecoming. In the face of sets like Bio, WP, and Shield, Super Reflexes could really use some updates. Issues: Elude is essentially pointless and deadly. With the plethora of +DEF in set IOs and non-Secondary powers, Elude's huge defensive boost only matters when you're righting +4s who have massive +to hit. Even if you are tempted to use it, the 100% endo drain at the end is life-threatening. Newer sets don't have such a punishing end to their T9's. Fix ? Reduce the endo drain to 60% Give Elude a flat (unenhanceable) bonus to Resistance No AoE protection until lvl 38 (let's call it 36 when you actually get to slot it). I never understood why they did this on Live. It still doesn't make sense. (EDIT: I suspect that the developers thought running three toggles might be problematic at low levels and that total AoE damage is comparatively low sub-30). Having to wait 35 levels for anything but a 5% +DEF to AoE is punishing as you level up. Granted, if your farm your way to 50, it's a non-issue, but there are at least seven people I've met on Homecoming who do not farm. Fix? Similar to what was done with Bio, let SR choose where to focus its +DEF in melee, vs ranged, vs AoE. As you get more toggles, you get more +DEF to split. Or....move Evasion way down the line. Resists are worthless against AVs and Big Hits. The scalling resist are great. I argued for them back on Live when the devs finally admitted SR was the worst performing secondary on Live. But they aren't enough. When AV's hit you at 25% health, they blow threw your current resist level. Fix? Any hit that would kill exceed your current health +RES, you gets resisted at max scaling resists. Give SR resist to positional Toxic and Psi. There's no reason why SR's defense should only half work against those attacks. No +Recovery,+Endurance, +Heal, +HP, +Regen. The reason why SR did so poorly on Live is that it only had one form of mitigation. And it was the only type of mitigation that was coded to fail 5% of the time. Newer sets have multiple forms of mitigation, SR was only given +Resist, which it can't even enhance. +Recharge is not damage mitigation and honestly makes the lack of +Recovery more of an issue. No fear protection - Granted, most sets don't have Fear protection. So why does Shield? Shouldn't someone who is a "practicted brawler" be resistance to fear? I suspect Fear was given to Shield because people had to pay to get Shield. If that's true, then there is no reason why that should be true on Homcoming. I thought each secondary was to have some type of mez loophole. But Shield has none. So do SR a solid...patch the hole please. Sure, SR does have its moments (sappers, Centurions?), but I can tell that if you don't have Tough, Weave, and Maneuvers, and a bunch of Set IOs covering up that endurance drain issue, those moments are few and far between. Let's not pretend that Set IOs and Incarnates make SR balanced with the other secondaries. It was fine when no one else could beat the soft cap, but now, just about any scrapper set can beat the soft cap so they get SR and everything else. SR needs an update, it's long overdue. If Trick Arrow needed help (which I also played on Live and I thought was brilliant) SR needs a full body transplant. Thanks for considering.

Which underscores my point. Context matters and that isn't found on a powers chart. Just because two sets have a -To Hit power doesn't mean that the one with the higher number is better. In any event, I think people here get it. TA is a lot better than its numbers indicate, and that was true before they buffed it.

Right. I was looking at the PvP value which says 50% damage and didn't see the 18% for ToHit. Good catch. And no, Flash is not the same debuff, if that's what you're saying. Flash is only 9% in PVE, but it has that massive -Perception debuff. Okay, CoD 2.0 is clearly out of date, I guess it was boosted to 18.7% Wow. No wonder people are feeling like TA is so good now.

We know the animations stick around, is there any website that confirms how long the numerical debuff lasts? According to COD, Flash Arrow lasts 60 seconds has a radius of 35ft compared to others of 25ft. That means flash arrow has essentially double the area of Darkest Night. And Flash Arrow is sticky. So no matter where the affected mob goes, it's still being debuffed. Granted, Darkest Night is debuffing at 37% To Hit and 50% Damage. So even with Poison Gas Arrow on the same mobs, Dark has a substantially more powerful debuff on two fronts, combined into one power. But that isn't always good. If your anchor dies or runs off, Darkest Night loses all its debuffing. TA doesn't have that problem. So the actual comparative beneift has to consider what is the REAL uptime of those debuffs? TA is typically going to last longer, and in some cases, much longer on every target. Another advantage for TA is that by splitting up the debuffs, I can apply them to different groups as needed. Is there a boss that peeled off the main group and is pounding a brute or a fellow squishy? PGA's -25% damage can be redirected and with enough recharge applied to more than 16 targets, or to separate groups simultaneously. Additonally, according to websites, with Issue 13, enemy affecting toggles turn off when the character is mez'd. So your Defender gets held or stunned, your debuffs drop. Haven't confirmed if that's still true, but it was another reason why TA was better than the numbers and players focused on numbers didn't see it. Look, Dark Miasma and Radiation are great debuffing sets. In the right conditions, they can totally outshine TA. My point is that if someone is trying to understand TA through the numbers, they aren't going to come away with the right conclusion.

I don't know what TA was like on Reborn in 2019. I played it back on Live, in the original game, and it was a tremendous set, but many on the forums couldn't reconcile the numbers with how it actually played. It's hard to show how good a set like TA is on paper because the statistics are dominate by context, not probability. Consider that 5.6% debuff on 10 mobs that last 40 seconds and is applied before the alpha, mitigates far more damage than a 20% debuff that hits 10 mobs but lasts 10 seconds (because that anchor gets killed).

First let me say that i find this an interesting topic and that there is no right answer outside of a specific context and aggregate stats to back it up. A lot of how people can rank the sets is highly context dependent. I will say that reading these forums, overemphasis is put on the end-game and vey little analysis is done on leveling up. And that makes sense since everyone's experience to 50 is so varied that it is hard to come up with any objective truths about the sets. Regarding Trick Arrow.... It was my experience on Live that Trick Arrow was one of the least understood sets. Players simply don't get it. This is evidenced by many versions of this statement "but they tend to be numerically inferior." What is lost in this perspective is the mechanic by which the debuffs are deployed and their cumulative effect of the sets debuffs dramatically influence the impact. While most sets tend to employ a number of different attributes -regen, -def, -res, -to hit, +heal, +mez, -KD/KB, damge, etc. Not all are as varied. "It's always better to have a single strong power than a handful of weak ones." This is demonstratively false in materials engineering. Composite materials can be constructed to out perform non-composite materials in any type of stress testing. The ability to stack different types of deuffs on a target makes a set far more robust than a set that simply has a high value of one thing. In addition, the effectiveness of any single strong debuff is a function of how long that debuff is actually applied. Anchor debuffing of Rad and Dark have major drawback that do not affect Trick Arrows location and sticky debuffs. In the high level game, minion anchors die within seconds. Sometimes before I can even finish the animation. Finding the the boss or LT can take me so long that the alphas have already been exchanged and the debuff isn't as useful. When facing things like sappers or Carnies that sap endo, anchor toggles fall. Trick Arrow's deuffs are fire and forget A perfect example is Flash Arrow. The -to hit debuff, may be minor compared to Dark's. But FA can be applied to neighboring groups without aggroing them and in the middle of another battle. So when that next group is attacked, the -to hit is already in effect against the entire group before they return alpha. You can't get away with that with Rad and Dark. Trick Arrow also has one of the most unique debuffs. As I understand it, and believe (because it's hard to do definitive testing in group play) I've seen in action, Acid Arrow lowers the resistance to other debuffs and mez effets. So Acid Arrow against an AV's/EB's makes them more susceptible to holds and other effects. If Trick Arrow has a gap, it's the lack of mez protection/nullification and outright heal. As others have pointed out, sometimes you need healing nothing else is as good. Trick Arrow hopes to make those times few and far between and manageable so that any given player's own way to deal with -health can be sufficient. But the point here is that looking at TA's low numbers as an indication of its effectiveness is bad science and is evident of people not understanding the context in which the game is played. Now let me state that Hijarki, I think you have a tremendous amount of insight into how the game is played, but you've got a blind spot in terms of the dependencies and synergy with regard to how Trick Arrow has been set up. I saw this repeatedly in Live. And having played Dark, Kin, and TA to 50 on Live (and obviously having played with all the sets) I was amazed at how effective TA was in small groups and large groups without people even realizing it. TA, in the hands of someone with system mastery, easily out performs Dark and Rad and Kin, on average. Obviously there are set ups where other sets will have more impact. I'll also point out that some sets have more obvious effects, like Rad's main anchor, and that influences people's perspective on what's working. I'll go on record that from a teammate perspective, Kin is going to get the most votes. +recharge, damage cap, Full health/Endurance. Even if another set lets you gain xp faster, Kin makes each individual player see bigger numbers and that has more value to individuals.

Sure, for those of us who grew up walking up hill both ways to school in the snow in April, this is way better. I absolutely agree the LRT is great. Ouro is great. I love /ah. But if you didn't grow up back in the old days, you probably don't realize how cool those new things are. But it's just funny how a friend asked me if I had anything low and I said that was my blaster that I made yesterday and is now level 22. Got 7 levels in one TF...lol. Good times.

You know, this is a whole thread by itself. There's good and bad to even the QoL changes. Back in i4 when you had to Sprint around KR, there was a real sense of danger. Now, with LRT and Athletic Run, that's all but gone. Unless you get hit by Rikti Ship in PI, when's the last time anyone died in transit? Those things added an element to the game, created an experience that is now largely gone. Sure, for all of us who did the grind back in the day, I am loving the changes, but I don't regret having played hard mode back in the day. One thing I'm glad they didn't change is the monorail. You have to wait for the doors to open before you can select your city. I like that. It makes it feel slightly more real as opposed to the position of the doors having no impact. Others may disagree, but I think those little things are important. The other thing that dawns on me is the motivation of the developers is totally different. Back in i4, Cryptic simply didn't have the content, so a slower leveling pace was needed. They also wanted there to be more teaming benefit and co-dependence. At least while leveling up. So things like an SR Tanker would have been problematic. I will say that the in-game mentality does seem to be all about power-leveling. All the AE farming, etc. Maybe I left before it got so dominant, or maybe I'm just noticing it more. I haven't tried out any of the other versions of CoH that are floating around, this one seems good enough.

I run my DM/SR scrapper with a DM/Shield Brute played by a friend. It feels like we are pretty even in terms of survivability. Now in our 20's, I can see I do more damage on average, but if we get rolling, he quickly catches up. DM compliments everything pretty well. It does suffer a bit on accuracy. CoT are particularly tough at this range on account of the having lots of ToHit debuff and being resistant to negative energy.

Yeah, that would make a totally different experience. I have to say, while I like the fact that the gates have all been unlocked, I can see why they never gave SR to tanks on Live. It's fun to get access, but it does undermine aspects of the game. The TFs I join from time to time are just strait out sprints (Synapse is still painfully long). There's really no sense of apprehension or concern. Sure, a blaster or defender might pull aggro and die because the Tank ran off to pull a third spawn, or on the low levels if things get stupid with aggro, but there's no need for any tactics, which is too bad for all those people who are playing this first here. I miss walking up hill both ways back in i4

Hey Bill, I remember your handle from Live. I think I joined in I4. I know I was on Live before they totally redid Regen. Why is it better for tanks on the way up, do the numbers start off higher for a Tank? As far as putting it just behind Shield, yeah...and I would put Shield last 🙂. On scrappers/brutes/tanks, I haven't played EA, Ninjitsu, Stone, Fire, Ice, Bio. I've only had a smattering of DA and Inv. But my Shield Brute was actually almost as bad as SR up through 20's. Now that I've got it slotted with IOs, it's passible. I don't have to take a knee after every fight, maybe every third fight. I think a lot of how people perceive the sets is based on the context under which they play them ie. solo, teamed, primary, etc. I think a lot of the comparative discussion, people are mixing in how the set plays with Sets and all kinds of Procs. As mentioned, with Elude, you can tank anything except Psi. But go fight Council at lvl 20 and you'll get grenaded back to the hospital. Brute SJ/Shield feels way worse to me compared to scrapper DM/SR or my scrapper, but I think that's because of DM. scr Claws/Regen felt better than B SJ/Sh. I do think SJ has a fair bit of damage mitigation via all the KD and Diz. More than Claws as I recall. Staff has even more KD than SJ or at least it feels that way because I was able to slot a Proc KDs from SBB or wherever I got it. DM is a huge boost to survivability, especially for sets that don't have +regen, +heal, or +recovery. And even for those sets, the -to Hit is like adding +Def, so at least in Melee, you last longer. I'll have to look at Bio, but it would seem to be a variation on WP mixed with Shield. Curious what people think EA plays like.

As someone who ran SR to 50 on Live, I have to say, it's got to be one of the worst sets to level up. Originally, the passives were only extra defense and after months, or maybe it was years of my pointing out that SR needed another type of protection, and that it should be resistance, they finally added some resistance. I ran DM/SR. I don't know how anyone survived a primary with no heal and no endurance recovery on SR. You also have zero AoE protection....I mean zero...until like mid-30s or so. I mean yeah, SR can withstand an alpha after you've fully slotted it up, but before that, I don't think the set has aged well. I am now playing a Staff/Willpower scrapper and I mean...there's just no contest. In my 20's I can take on a group of four oranges and come out with full health and nearly full endurance. I don't have health or stamina slotted. If I get down to half-health, I can roll to the next fight and be back at full by the end. I have Hasten, but I find I don't use it because I'm n no rush. I have no reservation about using my endo-heavy AoEs on single targets, because my blue bar is like always near full. I compare that with a SJ/Shield Brute who has defense fully slotted and I take a beating. I have to take a knee quite a bit with Shield. Some of that may be on account of the Brute needed to ramp up on damage, and I don't have more than one or two slots in any of the attacks. But still, Willpower is just way better on health and stamina, by a wide margin. I'm running another DM/SR and it's bringing back all those old memories. Endurance is a constant struggle and I don't have Evasion yet. The should have have added some +recovery to Quickness or some +Regen. I still love SR conceptually, but QoL, WP is just so much easier to solo with. If there's any real weakness to WP, it might be similar to /Regen in that you get hit by status effects and gets some cascade failure. I mean, Sappers are going to own you., and getting Tsoo'd with Siphon Speed is kind of sucky. But between Shield, Regen, Willpower, and SR, I give WP the nod by a car length.

Apologize for the thread necro, but as I love defenders, I had to read and respond. Like many, I originally played this back in the day. By way of background, I've played Kinetics, Trick, and Dark up to 50 (maybe dark was high 40's). I recall playing Radiation and some Cold as a Corruptor. First, I agree with much of what Overclock says, maybe 90%. Let me offer some thoughts: 1. A Defender's effectiveness and fun level is largely determined by the other players and their willingness/ability to play in a way that compliments your power set. Any Defender is better than no defender. But some sets work really well with certain groups dynamics and some do not. A perfect example is a Rad or Dark Defender and an Energy Torrent using Blaster in a large group, are problematic. Why? Because the ET knockback will frequently create aggro in nearby groups. If you play at +2 level difficulty as I do starting at lvl 8, this can cause party wipes. 2. Choose a Defender based on the mechanics you like and enjoy managing. By mechanics, I mean whether you like toggle, click, location, single target, control, AoE, etc. The biggest difference in the Defenders is the management. Playing Kinetics in a large group can cause carpal tunnel syndrome if you having have to Speed Boost everyone. If you don't like drawing aggrow, Dark and Rad defenders are going to be a headache. Find a primary that works with how you like to play e.g. large groups, small groups, lots of tactical decisions, fire and forget, etc. I can't tell you how many times I've seen teams wipe because the Toggle Debuff Defender forgot to turn of the toggle when the anchor ran into two or three other groups. Overclock mentions this, but he undersells it. It's a huge problem for toggle debuffs that never goes away. 3. Kinetics is the "best" Defender to have on your team. I've teamed with nearly all the Defenders at all levels and I've played Kin to 50. No set earns XP faster than Kinetics, even with an occasional wipe or death. Back in the day, no set was more welcomed or sought after as a teammate than Kinetics. Kinetic isn't the safest set or the most robust, but it gives the other players the most fun. Even before Fulcrum Shift, you're giving +Recharge, +Recovery and that is like crack to most players. But it is an exhausting set to play in large groups (where it shines) and I would quickly get burned out. Kinetics requires that the player is CONSTANTLY working. 4. Trick Arrow is the "best" Defender for any situation, but it is the MOST misunderstood and overlooked set. Having played it to 50 (BEFORE THE BUFF), I frequently had to tell large teams that they didn't need another Defender and no, I did not have Aid Other or a way to heal. After a couple of missions of the party rolling through +2's with no deaths and no heals, people would be amazed. IME, TA was by far the best and most effective set I played. However, TA requires you to be active and constantly monitoring the fight and picking targets. One of the reason TA gets bagged on is people are focused on the numbers and the numbers don't capture the synergies. Flash Arrow is one of TA's best and most unique powers, and this was true before it was buffed. Why is FA so good? Because it's best feature is that it stops nearby groups from getting aggro'd when you hit them with it just as you start fighting the closest group. FA does not aggro, so you can hit people with it before the fighting breaks out and while people are getting prep'd. The other factor someone pointed out is that it also compliments other Defenders really well. TA got buffed and it didn't need it. 5. The "best" Defender set is one that compliments your playstyle. Overclock says this and it's the truth. Play the set you enjoy playing, not the one that has the best numbers. 6. Team. The Defender was made to support and that means you won't leverage your power set if you don't get on a team or put one together. Send out request, or send out invites. By level 8, I can set the difficulty to +2 and in a party of 4 or more, I am leveling every mission. 7. Communicate. Defenders requires team cohesion. Mainly they require the team not to split up. Make someone the point and everyone follows the same person. The quickest way to wipe is to have the party attack two different groups at the same time. The tier rating is largely nonsense. It is not helpful because Defender effectiveness is based on how you play it and how your team plays As Overclock suggests, any Defender is a multiplier on a good team. No Defender can stop a bad team from being its own worst enemy.