Riverdusk

June 15

This game is closer to Diablo than Dark Souls. With all of the possible builds and IO sets maybe closer to Path of Exile even. Although when it comes to ARPG's I'm more of a Grim Dawn fan than either of those. 😄

Anyway, it's about the fun of the build and mowing down a ton of enemies. That is perfectly fine. No need to try to turn it into something else.

Since it is an MMO you also have the social aspect. I find when multiplayer games tend to become too extreme, they also tend to attract the more 'extreme' players, and the social aspect suffers. The 'casuals' are chased away. A generalization yes, and disclaimer that I'm sure many who want things 'more challenging' are fine people.

A last issue with trying to turn this into something more 'difficult' When you do that balance becomes even more of an issue. Right now a favorite set gets nerfed I get a bit miffed or even slightly upset, but at the same time I know I can still do just fine with it. Make things really difficult and suddenly even slight nerfs and characters can get destroyed. The 'meta' builds become even more important, diversity tanks.

I love that currently when people ask, "What should I play?" The most common answer is, "Whatever you think looks fun", well except for kinetic melee (I joke). Anyway, I don't like the idea of losing that.

June 13

I wouldn't mind seeing DO's and SO's being made significantly cheaper (which would also help the 'upgrade' button cost), otherwise no. Those are more the 'beginners' enhancements and I don't mind making things a bit easier for the 'newbies'.

June 13

4 hours ago, MonteCarla said:

Oh, and Fade in Controller's Dark Affinity - wonderful power numerically, a shame it has to make your entire team almost totally invisible!

Yes, Fade, still the worst of them all. Lets turn your entire team invisible against their will. As a kicker, lets have it not actually grant any stealth, so they sometimes run around thinking they are stealthed when they aren't. Okay, sometimes that part can be funny.

Ice shields can be another bad one, I know I always use min fx and choose dark colors when I make a cold buffer, but a lot of people don't.

June 8

2 hours ago, the1egend1ives said:

I'm confused by the sleep mechanics. Upon taking damage, do enemies continue to stay asleep ONLY if they have deep sleep? If so, that means that only controller sleeps get a buff, since controller buffs are the only ones that stack and cause deep sleep. Any other sleep, like the Poison Gas Arrow from Trick Arrow, will continue to be ineffective in combat, since enemies will take damage instantaneously from other powers

That is correct. Poison gas arrow is one of those that constantly 'tics' though. In its case, every 2.5 seconds it tries to put things to sleep again for its duration as long as they stay in the area of effect. However, It is also low magnitude, so it is only going to affect minions.

Honestly, for poison gas arrow, it is more about the damage debuff it gives, which is very high (-50% for defenders). And the damage debuff affects everything, not just minions.

June 7

Kinetics might be weaker defensively, but it is potentially very strong offensively. I think that is its whole thing, so it'd be hard to mess with it much. I've also seen some combos like beast/kinetic do very well (all melee pets and run fortify pack to help survive. Use kinetics to more than make up the damage loss of not criting).

Anyway, you'd probably have better luck suggesting some minor changes you'd like to see, rather than saying it needs a complete overhaul.

And honestly, the biggest trap I've seen for MM's that leads to people complaining about squishy pets I think is more them trying to join teams running level 54 content when they are lower level and sidekicked up to level 49. Have fun with your pets surviving or doing anything when they are facing +6 or +7 enemies.

June 7

To throw a positive comment out there:

Just want to say I don't agree with or like all these changes (nothing new there), but I think they will end up causing me to roll up yet another group of new alts (and maybe rework and retry some of the ones I've tried in the past) and I'm sure I will have fun doing so.

So, this page will make me want to play the game even more, so that's definitely a win overall to me.

June 6

I'll still always beat the drum for the ST immobilizes to have their damage sped up or buffed. Right now entangle is still the most skippable power as just taking something like arcane bolt beats it in value.

Vines might be the other most skippable now, but that's not really different from live where I also usually skipped it.

Otherwise looks pretty good I think. With the changes I might give a plant/storm a try again on live, storm makes up for the bit of damage hit plant has taken. Plant now brings more control options and a bit more reliable self sustain that storm lacks (spirit tree being up more often).

June 4

1 minute ago, GM Crumpet said:

Oddly I find MM's easy. Highlight an enemy, click the pet attack button. I don't find the considerable number of macros useful. and I've never had the need to use the bodyguard feature.

For me, I think it really depends on difficulty settings. On low to moderate settings I find they are the easiest AT to play because you can pretty much go on cruise control. At high to max difficulty settings they can start to be really hard for me as I find micromanagement can become more and more important.

June 4

7 hours ago, Dragotect said:

I'm not 100% sure if plant does -regen, but that could be why. The -regen resistance buffs are still on minion-boss critters. Which would mean regen rates are slightly higher, making it slightly longer to take things down. Slightly being the key word there, but even slightly adds up if you're taking down 100+ things.

Also, this is the insanity of balancing MMOs. Yeah, electric control could very well be the new meta so if you aren't testing that your test is invalid /s.

Thanks, but I think it finally dawned on me, at least part of it. I noticed sometimes my fly trap didn't seem to be doing anything on my test server run. I forgot about the new controller commands so it was probably on defensive mode by default. From experience as a mastermind I know if you don't get attacked for a while and a pet is in defensive they will stop attacking even in the middle of a fight until you get attacked again. This can happen when all the mobs are controlled or slowed enough.

On live controller pets are pretty much default "aggressive" mode, behind the scenes.

But yes, it'll actually be nice to have the regen buff separated so it can be tested better on its own without all these other massive changes making things harder to parse.

June 4

Probably going to regret this, but getting back into it again. The point of my test wasn't to show "clear times". Maybe I wasn't obvious enough, but the point was to test how increased mob health regen specifically affected long slow dot damage powers, in a disproportion way compared to more instant damage powers. Throwing in other plant powers isn't going to help a test looking for the affect on long slow dots specifically.

When it takes 9 seconds for a power to do its damage and a mobs health regen gets increased a significant amount, it is going to hurt that power more than one that does its damage instantly. That was my main theory. I thought it was pretty obvious of a point, but maybe some think dots are just as good as an instant damage power. Hence testing and then asking specifically if they could look at speeding up the DoT on that one power.

Also, I probably confused things by also saying that some extra -regen in something would be nice, which I shouldn't have thrown in there, although it'd still be nice.

Honestly would still be happy if they'd just speed up that stupid DoT. Do note that most DoT powers in the game do bonus damage compared to their instant damage alternatives, but controller tier 1's do the same whether dot or instant, which I think violates a basic game formula. So, even on that point alone I think the slow DoT's should be either sped up or given a damage bonus. But that's a different discussion, but one that I have brought up before in the past.

If people think that is still looking at things in too much of a vacuum or whatever, fine. They can rip into as much as they want of course.

As noted, I also was in the middle of doing a test on "clear times" as well, when the changes were reverted. That is a different test. It can also be different even on that one depending on whether you include secondary powers, pool powers, incarnate powers, temp powers, even loading up on red inspirations. People can test for different things using different parameters. If someone doesn't think it is a useful test then remember people are free to do their own.

June 4

Well, I signed on and was doing more testing, at least of using all the plant powers, but then remembered (and double checked with power analyzer) the changes have already been reverted, for now. Interestingly enough even without the health regen changes the killing times were slower on test than live, by a non-negligible amount (wasn't even testing with procs in creepers either). Not sure exactly why, but only ran it twice, so may have been fluky. Anyway, will have to wait until the health regen thing comes around again I guess.

Or maybe I should try electric control now with the way people are talking about it.

June 4

8 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

If a test is invalid, then it's invalid. And your test is very emphatically invalid because you are not using the full range of your available powers nor dealing the damage a lvl 40 troller is capable of dealing.

If your test is invalid, then there is no bigger point to be had.

I was interested in seeing how the change affected the typical main damage power of quite a few of my controllers. I isolated other variables and tested how it affected that power and it noticeably made it worse. Hence suggested a slight buff to it (speeding up the dot, something many have suggested in the past even prior to this change). I personally think It is a little hard to suggest changes to individual powers without testing those powers in isolation. If everyone is calling testing that way invalid though, I won't bother sharing those tests anymore, simple.

However, I guess I can say I believe the power that makes up the bulk of my single target attack chain being negatively affected is going to slow down defeat times. I don't need to throw in my other, also anemic, single target damage powers, to believe that. Especially since they are powers that many controllers may not even slot to be damage powers (the hold) or not necessarily taken or part of the primary (pool powers).

Vast majority of my characters kill things fast enough that critters don't have any chance to really regen anyway. For most characters the change really is negligible, was just trying to highlight some cases where it might not be (mostly my controllers). Anyway, devs will do what they'll do, I'll adjust or move on.

June 3

2 minutes ago, csr said:

This is the case where you sit and do nothing - not even recasting Entangle when it recharges - for up to 7.7s while one cast of Entangle does its damage.

I mentioned that. "I realize they will have other powers and you can stack it a bit, "

But sure, everyone pick apart my attempt at some testing and ignore the bigger point.

June 3

7 minutes ago, Vanden said:

So am I missing something here? What does this test prove? No one is trying to solo a boss at level 40 with only their t1 attack. If it's not possible any more, that doesn't mean anything, because it wasn't a thing that happened to begin with.

Maybe not only the t1 attack, but close to it, yes. I am trying to solo a level 40 boss with that as my main attack quite often.

What else do a lot of controllers have for single target damage? As I said, taking a pool power attack? Okay, but not something I'd say should be a requirement and they aren't exactly great damage either. Slotting up your single target hold with damage procs? I don't think that should be heavily considered for balance considering they are also likely to nerf procs at some point. It is what I end up doing most of the time now though because I don't feel I really have another choice beyond being forced to team as a requirement.

Going to higher level options, creepers won't even be doing much if you are down to a single boss or two and therefore a single vine or two. Some other control sets have it even worse. The pet at level 26 helps (if you can get that far), and if you can keep it alive and their effectiveness varies.

I also feel forced to depend on temp attacks and controller is the only AT I end up using temps all the way to level 50. Accuracy and endurance costs can be a big issue though.

I take the single target immobilize on controllers as a main attack power often. It is now noticeably even worse for that role. That was my point. If you don't feel it is a useful test then that's fine. Ignore me.

And I hardly think my suggestions were out of line, but others can chime in. I didn't even ask for a damage buff, just a speeding up of the damage already there, and a -regen debuff that wouldn't even completely counteract the added regen that is proposed (would need to be at the top end of my suggestion, 50%, and that is before level differences or resistances).

My suggestions would basically just help controllers EVEN with what is already on live, rather than falling behind.

June 3

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Nope.

Thanks. Might have otherwise missed that new post. Finally a spot I could put my feedback. Yay.

June 3

29 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

There is a very high chance this wont make it in page 2, or at least not on the initial rollout, as the number of critters that already need adjusting is higher than the mission content team feels comfortably tweaking on a short notice. So, unless you love running farms where you give your critters instant healing, you not have to worry about these changes from a farming point of view.

Thanks for finally explaining it.

However, my issue isn't with a "farming point of view" which I do not care about. I don't farm. I care about it that it hurts low and slow damage AT's like controllers (and perhaps defenders). When one of your only few single target damage options is a single target immobilize (something like entangle for plant control) that does low damage and takes 9 seconds to actually do that damage, a boss going from 5.59 to 10.7 per second has a significant effect.

Testing: Set to level 40 a plant controller on test spamming entangle could barely even dent a boss' hp bar, even when they were lower level than me. I tried both a crey boss and a rikti mentalist. On live in same situation it was still slow, but I made definitely more noticeable progress. I guess I could try to time both of them to be more exact, but that will take a while, a long while.

Numbers: Specifically for entangle it does 6.11 damage every 2 seconds for 9 seconds. Even with containment and fully slotted for damage that is then 23.8 damage every 2 seconds, or about 11.9 damage per second. 11.9-10.7= a whopping 1.2 damage per second after their regen. A level 50 boss has 2,570 hps. It would take at least 30 minutes for a controller with a fully slotted entangle to beat one boss now using just that. I realize they will have other powers and you can stack it a bit, but when it comes to a lot of controllers, honestly there aren't a lot of other options. That is also before you even take into account the damage resistance that a lot of bosses have.

Controller chillblain, shadowy binds, stone prison, electric fence, ring of fire, and crush are all similar, Illusion, mind, arsenal, and symphony all appear to have more instant damage options. Not that it won't still hurt them as well.

It just even more forces controllers such as plant to take arcane bolt and/or to slot up their hold with damage procs instead of hold enhancements to be able to actually damage a boss at any kind of reasonable rate. It is now noticeably slower.

You just made low damage AT's even more poor.

Some Possible Solutions:

I'd suggest single target immobilizes for controllers (of all sets that have the slow versions) have their damage sped up dramatically, maybe even changed to instant, to help. It taking 9 seconds for the damage to actually tic is no longer feasible with the increased regen rates.

Controllers/defenders may also need some minor -regen debuff added to one or more of their control/attack powers (say something like 25% to 50%, (most of which would be resisted by an AV so it would not affect them in any real way). Something that is available for every mob. Not all support sets have -regen or have long enough recharges on them that they are always available. It'd also be a nice way to make controllers maybe more valuable on teams, just a little bit.

June 3

9 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Could it be intended as an AFK Farming nerf? Just trying to think about what situations people might do fairly low chip damage to a large number of mobs in a way that some might deem problematic.

Yes, also, the point I made in other posts. We have no idea the reasoning behind the change, which is another issue.

June 3

8 minutes ago, Uun said:

I posted a number of side by side tests in the focused feedback thread for the tank changes, primarily to isolate the impact of the reduction to overcap damage. When notoriety was reduced from x8 to x4, there was no material difference in clear time between live and beta.

I posted my own test, I think in the main patch thread, using entangle against a -3 boss and did notice a difference. Yes, I wouldn't expect a higher damage AT like tank to see much of a difference. A low damage AT like controller, especially with slow dots, does.

Of course without a focused feedback thread, the 'tests' are all over the place so no definitive place to discuss.

June 3

1 hour ago, Uun said:

I assume you're referring to regeneration rate (health) not recovery rate (endurance). In any case, critter regeneration rate hasn't been doubled or even close to it. The changes to critter regeneration are barely noticeable in side by side tests.

Uh, yes they have and are.

Per the wiki the current regen rates are:

Minion 5% every 42 seconds

Lieutenant 5% every 23 seconds

Boss 5% every 23 seconds

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Health_Regeneration

The patch notes say the new regen rates are:

All critters now regenerate health 5% of their health every 12 seconds (does not include GMs or AVs)

I guess you could say going from 23 seconds to 12 seconds for bosses and Lt's isn't "technically" quite double, but yes it is very "close to it", by literally 1 second, or around a +92% increase in rate. For minions it is 3.5x the rate, although of course with minions much lower health it isn't as noticeable.

It is something that I definitely did notice though, at least on boss level mobs when I did my "side my side" tests. Especially when trying to use slow dot powers like entangle.

Also, that there is no focused feedback thread. That makes it tough to even discuss or do "side by side" tests, or even discuss things like how much of an increase it really is, as there is no place to really discuss it or post any tests of it.

June 3

2 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

I dont get the idea of doubling critter recovery rate. all it brings is tedium.I guess the moar harder folks like that so we are stuck with it. Its doesnt make the game harder, just tedious.

I mean I guess I'd be okay with it if they want to give all controllers some minor -regen in one or more of their controls to counteract it (since not all secondaries have -regen or have it up often enough). Roots for example would probably be good spot for it in plant, something similar in other sets.

Hard to say what to even suggest though as the devs have still given zero indication as the reason behind the change. I'm assuming the point behind the change wasn't to make an AT that is already on the slower side for defeating mobs even slower, but we can't know unless they say something.

They also still have not created a focused feeback thread on the issue despite many requests, so it appears they don't care for any feedback from us on it. It has been very strange/disappointing the complete lack of communication on this change.

June 2

52 minutes ago, Hedrondesign said:

Why did the Max recharge have to go up past the current 120?

?? The recharge on live is 240. At worst it will take just as long as it does on live.

Only potential downside as others have noted is procs being much less likely to fire off.

June 1

I tested the new mob health regen rates and posted about it. Specifically though I was testing the difference between just spamming entangle (a low damage VERY slow dot) on a live boss and a beta test boss. It basically made entangle worthless as a damage power, (not that it was great before), at least at the boss level. Again I suggested that controller single target immobilizes should have their damage sped up and not take 9 seconds to actually do their already pitiful damage.

Would swear even a while ago there was a dev feedback thread asking players how controller immobilizes could be improved and have more people take them. Speeding up the damage was probably the #1 suggestion. Can't find it now though so maybe I was imagining it. If it did happen, obviously devs didn't remember it either.

Edit: Didn't help that there was no focused feedback thread for the health regen change. People had to bring it up in various other threads randomly.

June 1

2 hours ago, ApolloInferno said:

Tried rikti, council, rularru, nemesis, carnival, matla. But im sure someone could come up with better options

For a controller I know nemesis aren't so easy. Seeds may as well not exist with Nem's confuse protection. Doms can easily overcome it with domination up though.

From a controller point of view my biggest wish at this point actually is to just improve entangle. I dislike having to pick up arcane bolt every time just to have a decent single target damage attack option (and often that isn't really enough).

Once again I know for a dom's point of view it is unimportant as they have many other single target damage possibilities.

June 1

14 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

Some thoughts from jumping up to level 30 before I go to bed:

I'm not sure if Fly Trap's AI needs to be adjusted? It frequently followed me into the middle of mobs instead of staying at range. I'm not sure if that's because as Marine I'm jumping into melee or if it's the AI not keeping it at range until combat is over.

To me that is a good thing, assuming you can keep it alive of course. Its best attack is actually its melee attack.

June 1

2 hours ago, Gemini2099 said:

Yeah that is the biggest problem I have with the changes to Plant it forces certain builds which doesn't make sense to me.

I have quite a few plant combos, but for that reason if I do ever go back to plant controller it'd probably be my plant/rad. Rad is a good secondary, but also one that has a lot of skippable powers, probably more than any other secondary (just need 6 from it really). So, it has room to be more flexible in power choices.

Biggest downside of it (and most plant combos) was always single target damage is terrible, and that is still an issue. /rad unfortunately doesn't have any extra procable single target attacks like an extra single target hold or anything.

Would still love to see entangle's damage sped up, along with other control set's similar ST immobilize powers. I still think it is ridiculous having to wait 9 seconds for it to actually do its damage.

Edit: Plant/storm probably still a good one too, also lot of skippables and brings the extra damage.

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