CYPHERPUNK

i think you entirely misinterpreted my post =/ ; prior to the latest HC changes whatever it was i26p4 like someone else mentioned , i think it was argued that tanks needed some kind of luv , i think its perfectly rational to agree with this consensus [especially the increased aggro caps] , but i also think that the buffs were 'too much' , not that the buffs should be entirely reverted and not that tanks should be 50% less of what they currently are , is that not clear enough? baseline tank prior to i26 = 100 i26 buffs +100 = 200 , the suggestion is that 200 is too much , we are arguing for reducing those buffs byto 50 , thus the new tank would be =150 , still better than before , but not quite as OP as they currently are tanks are supposed to be the durable ones , brutes and scraps are supposed to be the best mid-tier melee dps , ie they dish out WAY MORE dmg than tanks do , and as a tradeoff they are not quite as tough [or at least it costs more for them to build as such] , then stalky does the MOST epic melee burst dmg , but they are even more squish than scraps , but they have hide , ie the heroes have blasters , and the villains have stalkers , it was truly a brilliant design specialization from the OG devs back in the day ; if tanks are out-clearing the brutes , then either the brutes need to be doing more dmg or the tanks are overtuned , thats basically the long-short of it , and OFC there are always going to be the edge cases and outliers , but design-wise the HC devs should be focusing on the core base-use [ie big math avg/means/etc] cases , as like you yourself said , you dont want to be stepping on the 99% as a means to curtail the 1% like this entire discussion is a derailment of the OP , but its specifically BECUZ tanks on HC completely fukn clear the other melee ATs atm , they 6-proc a bunch of AOEs and decimate the mobs , all the while practically invincible due to tanker primaries being such beefcake uber chads , thusly any/every discussion of 'hey what brute/scrap/etc should i make?' gets a comment about 'nah bro , brutes/scraps are washed now , make a tank instead and l2p' , if it was not for this scenario we would not be having this convo at all

i dont know if procs are necessarily the 'problem' here as it were , but i do follow your logic ; ie tanks already get great defenses , so they dont need to make the kind of build slot sacrifices that brutes/scraps/stalky need to make to survive , thusly they go all-in on procs to get the most benefit and simultaneously not worry about the lower dmg scalar , AND even additionally like u said , having the bigger AOE and increase tgt caps means that a 6-slot proc in a big tanker AOE is doing triple/quadruple duty fr imho the post-WoW MMORPG ideology is toxic/corrosive , its akin to a form of brainrot , ie they see things in only 1 way , ie there must be the unholy trinity/triforce of DPS/TANK/HEELORZ ; when City of Heroes and WoW were living side-by-side back in the day , COH stood as a testament that a game could be a LOT more than just an EQ clone , how many of us have memories of running TFs with 8 blasters? sure a team with defenders/tanks/etc certainly would be more well rounded , but CoH showed everyone that you could do anything with anything as long as you were determined and clever enough to do so , and even more-so once IOs came onto the scene [which brought us back some small measure of what we lost with the introduction of Enhancement Diversification... dark times] and by saying this what im trying to elucidate is that any argument about 'which AT is the best at X?' should be answered with 'well they can all do X well, some might eek out a few % better or worse , but the better question is what/how/why do you want to do X' ie you can take down Giant Monsters ingame with any AT if played well , the amount of build diversity that we have amongst all of the ATs and powersets is so vast , that to sequester or sideline any AT becuz their pylon times are 5 sec shy of another AT/build/etc is the height of ludicrousness bottom line? tanks should be on average the most durable , but they should not also simultaneously be doing the most dmg and out-clearing brutes and scraps ; it certainly seems like the HC devs have over-buffed tanks in this aspect ; brutes imho should be doing some more dmg but they do not need to be made any more durable imho , whether they get a boost to fury dmg or what i dunno , but certainly their dmg cap did not need to be lowered , if anything it should be raised ; scraps and stalky are imho in a good spot , crits are uber powerful as they can 'break' the dmg cap , so these guys will always be the premiere AV/EB/Boss deleters in the the melee camps it really does seem like the smartest course of action is to reduce the buffs to the tanks , they got over-boosted , the increases to AOE and tgt-caps and dmg scalar should be 50% less than what they are , ie gauntlet still gives tanks a boost just not quite so large as they have atm , becuz arguably tanks were in need of something , but they clearly went too far ; and ofc it should go without saying that tanks should have double/triple the AGGRO cap than the other ATs , i think that is perfectly thematically accurate and doesnt really break anything else in the same ways that dmg/aoe/etc does

thats an excellent link thread nemu thanks =]

ya it really seems pretty simple imho looking at the HP scaling on the HC wiki , tanks>brutes>scraps>stalky , you can logically presume that avg DPS for each AT should be the converse of that , and clearly buffing the aoe and tgt caps for tanks has unbalanced this , but imho not necessarily in a bad way , it just that not enough was done [and like was mentioned , the simultaneous nerfing of brute dmg cap seems entirely unwarranted] tanks SHOULD be the most durable , and they are , they have the highest base HP and since the armors are primary for them its a LOT easier to hit the caps for def/res stalkys SHOULD deal the most ST burst DMG , and they do [or at least they used to , maybe im out of the loop but stj/bio stalkers were top tier dps awhile back] scraps and brutes are the closest and were designed intentionally to be effectively inter-change-able , the community trying to invalidate or min/max and AT out of efficiency is missing the point , and if HC is balancing around this then maybe they have lost the plot scraps with crits will and should always have the potential to deal more burst dmg than brutes , with fury brutes should be able to deal more consistent dmg ; mathematically this is going to average out very closely , and ofc this muddys the waters what probably should not be happening on a regular basis is for a tanker to be clearing mobs faster than an equivalent brute , obvs there are always going to be edge/outlier cases with a game as complex as CoX , but in general , if a tank is hitting more tgts consistently , then the brute should be dealing significantly more dmg to compensate i think it makes sense for tanks to have higher tgt aggro caps [this fits into their AT design] , and im fine with them getting larger aoes as well , but they probably didnt need the dmg buff in that case ; ie pick one , either more dmg OR more aoe , but not both [becuz obvs larger aoe and more tgts IS effectively and additional overall dps increase] we all know the brute ATOs are lame/weak , simple solution? buff/fix them , give them dmg procs and/or -foe regen/resist ; another option? make fury give +3% dmg instead of +2% ; additionally/also? maybe give brutes 50% of the aoe/tgt cap increase that tanks were given , ie less aoe than tanks but more than scraps/stalk [ie in-line with the HP scalar tiers] as far as peak dmg potential goes , its obvs way more complex ingame/real scenarios , but it seems like raising the dmg cap for stalkers and scrappers would make more sense than lowering the cap for brutes [assuming the original AT base scalars] , ie return brutes to 800% cap , push scraps to 600% cap and stalks to 700% cap , so that the order is the reverse of their AT base HP scalar tier order [excluding the brutes outlier highest cap due to their having the lowest AT base dmg scalars] ; this would ensure that on big teams , the stalks and scraps would continue to deal superior dps , while the brute would continue to fill the mid-role that they were always designed to be TLDR - maybe give brutes 50% of the tank aoe/tgt cap boosts or lower tanks dmg scalar if they are going to keep the aoe boosts exclusive , and/or improve the brute ATO with dmg procs/degen , and/or increase fury +dmg% , and/or adjust/revert AT dmg caps for those unaware heres a quick breakdown of the ATOs for the above discussed ATs stalk guile - 30% chance to insta-hide assass mark - 5% chance to refresh build-up scrap strike - global +3-6% boost to crit chance crit strike - 60% chance for proc to give the next atk +50% crit chance brute fury - proc to give 7 fury unrelenting - proc to give 6% endreduc and 20% regen - ie less than 2 hp/sec gauntlet fist - proc for 400-500 absorb shield might of tank - 90% chance for +6.7% ALL resist for 10 sec - this will be up all the time so how about this instead brute fury - purple dmg proc equivalent plus foe -regen or -resist unrelenting - global +100% regen and +25% end recovery

ya i see the maths being done in mids , but thats average over time isnt it? ie slotting more procs in your atks is giving you a 'chance' to do bonus dmg right? im rusty on the PPM mechanics but i did understand that it would basically always work on a power that you used less than once a minute , but if we're talking about slotting into an atk that u are using every 4-5 secs i didnt think that the proc was always going to be proc-ing , whereas another set io/etc/whatevs would be more consistent/reliable? , did HC do some kind of fundamental changes to how procs work? i guess the mod scene really has changed a lot over the years , its wild to me that we would be sacrificing set bonuses for some procs XD , considering that the rare set bonuses were endgame chase gear from back in the day

can someone plz ELI5 with this build? like why do we not want hecatomb to be 6 slotted? isnt KO Blow under enhanced with all those procs? what about overall recharge? ive been out of the loop for awhile and i heard about 'proc bombs' and this seems like it but it seems like these powers are under-enhanced to make room for all these procs , i thought we wanted all of those 4/5/6 slotted set bonuses? is there a good post/guide somewhere else that explains when this shift in build design happened and why? thanks in advance =]

so if im following this thread correctly , Brutes as they current are on HC are basically at the bottom of the pile atm? that's pretty sad to hear why exactly was their dmg cap reduced if this is the case? and how often are ppl running around at the dmg cap neways? it feels like the brutes space was intentionally designed to be a mid-tier performer within the stalker/scrapper/tanker medium , but with the potential to be an outlier if/when they got enough team buffs everything i am seeing is basically telling me that brutes should at the very least be given their higher dmg cap back if nothing else , but more likely their archtype ios could also be improved ; i would say something like maybe instead just make fury give +2.5/3% dmg per fury instead of +2% but that seems counter to the original design , ie instead of raising the floor , have a higher ceiling