Joshex

Pool powers that provide +def fall in to 3 categories not 2 the one you missed: Toggle powers that provide exactly double the def of the weaker +def power in the set (Invisibility 9%, stealth 4.5%) I know from CoH titan that several of the devs agreed and have had many conversations about how as the game progressed they built it for the tanks and survival units because of an increasing player ability to push those limits. at issue 0 blasters were able to handle a lot more because the enemies were easier. it was designed that way. many of thew devs from titan agree that blasters really need a boost in this department to keep them alive in general situations. because they were largely ignored and left behind as the game got harder. blasters were not meant to be /THIS/ squishy. they deserve a bit extra def.

Reasons: 1: you may be aware, in the stealth pool we have stealth and Invisibility, invisibility has better def than stealth and only requires 1 other power from the stealth pool and LV14, granted Invis cannot be on at the same time as Hover (a possible consideration), but they exist in the same pool. 2: you can only take 4 power pools, so you take hover, stealth(4.5%), Invis (9%), combat jumping (cannot work the same time as hover, movement type conflict fly vs jump? right?), tough and weave, not necessarily in that order. thats 4 pools. now we cannot take leadership. so now we'd need to rely on the epic pool if we want more. whereas afterburner is there in flight, it could have been another def power supplying just that little more def. However: 1: MM and squishy players seem to rely on Afterburner for travel protection and 0# 5#!7 moments. 2: other players are happy with it as is. So: break the stalemate; [Flight Field], the power that causes you to break away from gravity and fly can be focused into a field around you to redirect attacks that would normally hit out of the way to a moderate extent. A flight power must be active to use this power, You must be Lv14 and have selected 1 other power in the flight pool to take this power. 4.5% def (all), -flight speed in combat.

fine, I can see this is going nowhere. and there will be no convincing you to change Afterburner. how about another pool power in the flight set which requires 2 flight pool powers and lv 25 and grants more moderate flight def as a toggle? reason being, I kinda like the mobility of [fly], I just wish that pool had more to offer that was usable for my build.

my argument is changing based upon conditions as they arise in the convo. I have proposed it was unfair that only MM's could fully benefit from afterburner as it's a pool power. I then suggested that MM's are OP to begin with in this department. so to make MMs the only At that can fully utilize it in battle while it's a pool power is like beating a dead horse, and really just rubbing it in the face of other Ats who look at it as a wasted spot in the pool or even a taunt where they wish they could use it too.. So Afterburner is OP in this context. I have even suggested dumbing down the def output in battle in exchange for using it while attacking. to me this seems a valid trade as really no one should complain, it'd then add the same benefits to all ATs.

yeah it came with the MM secondary. it's "only effecting self" yes. but it's a secondary. not a pool power, so as a secondary it's understandable it'd be built for an MM to take advantage of. where as pool powers should be for everyone not just a single AT.

Ok so yeah, MM's have powers that grant insane def. some are only effecting self. but Afterburner is a pool power available to all ATs seems a bit unfair to make it a MM def power..

uhh, ok, you go have fun with that. https://imgur.com/EBeIC I could actually trade for a few more slots on attacks, the def powers alone are pretty good, as you can see I didn't even have to turn on any epics. I could trade them for attacks and rearrange things. as I said I was just messing around to see how far on the def side I could go. the res seemed to come on it's own.

it's an accidental survival hack. with the numbers I'm seeing here, +4 or even +5 probably wont actually be able to take out this MM, he could just sit in a mob of them and not die. He could tank lord recluse... for killing mobs, all it'd have to do is just drop the "only effecting self" toggles summon all the pets, put the toggles up and continue. mobs wont be able to strike it, sure they can kill the pets after a bit, but.. it'd be a futile endeavor. I mean even without it, MMs are OP. 45 def to all, SL res capped, swinging in with pets. very OP. add 20 def all.

actually new points are being made as the conversation goes forwards. in the last page we covered that we could lower the def output of the power in battle On this page we clarified that MM's can actually use it in battle technically (which is a major accidental hack that I'm sure the devs didn't consider when they made it.) I mean if we lowered the def output to 6% def base in battle, I think only masterminds would complain, and even then, not really. I mean it's the difference between like 150% def and 170% for them. I mean I just slapped stuff on there and it's ridiculous, sl and psi are capped at 75% res, everything else is either high 60s or toxic which is 30's. and I haven't even activated force of nature yet..

nah, I had stopped arguing, till other good points were added, then I started supporting those points only. then it hit me that from the start if it was supposed to be equal to everyone, because of pets it's not, MMs can just drag summoned pets into a mob and have at them. they just have to basically walk through stuff. I've just been playing around in old mids and didn't even finish slotting stuff. I'm getting over 100 def to most and 99.8 or 95.8 def to the rest, 57% SL res, 40% else except toxic crap tonnes of regen and recovery. to hit, haste and damage is low but, hey, better than nothing. and I slotted like 4 powers. haven't even placed all the slots yet 42 to go no enhancements in most. oh and I barely have all my toggles on atm.. so.. wow. this is not a squishy AT at all. masterminds are solid. but they can get afterburner in combat. how broken is that? yet I'm asking for another 18.8% def in combat on my blaster and you freak out like it's going to destroy the game.

That's why I asked people who use it, it may be baffling to us how the 18.8% def on a only effecting self travel booster is worth taking it, again, an MM could probably profit the most from it. but yeah some squishies find it makes them waste less time and take less chances of being sniped to death before they get barrier or such incarnate powers. and that really is the core problem with it as is, people here are saying it's got no problems as is, thats untrue. it gives an unfair advantage to Masterminds who can easily attack with pets while only effecting themselves, that means it grants them insane amounts of def, all they need to do is give up attacks and focus on pets. MM's aren't even that squishy to begin with.. So yeah I'd say afterburner as is, is highly broken after thinking about it clearly.. It benefits a single AT more than any others and gives that AT an unfair advantage. only time they'd have to turn it off is if their pets die, or to resummon them. so yeah it will need some "in combat" nerfing, either automatic pet de-summon when activated, or allow it used in battle for an insane end cost per second, or supply damage or accuracy debuffs in battle while active, or Automatically lower the def it provides in battle to something more "normal". Any other ideas how to fix it? edit: I think I'm inspired to go make a tankermind just to hammer the point home.

Click type != toggle. 532% regen? I tried adding and taking away 2 slotted LOTG and it wouldn't budge above 308%... must be a bug in my mids version.. seems I will need new mids to make any sense of this.

what pool? or do I have to be a certain At or pick a certain primary or secondary? if so, that's why they made pool powers. so you could pick any power-sets and make it work. costs make things valid, it's the rule of the game. it's how they built and then balanced the powers, don't believe me, ask Arcana the stats genius. there can be an in battle cost thats different and substantially so that many builds can't afford it except squishies. Edit: the way it worked in this game while it was live and the devs were adding powersets and pool powers was; come up with a neat power/set idea> make it> listen to player grievances> Balance/nerf. given that Afterburner really isn't that old, and given the state of paragon studios at the time, I'd venture a guess that Afterburner was never balanced or nerfed. so it still has the dev's original idea for balancing cost. maybe that's also why it's so OP. maybe this power needs a bit of balancing.

nice finds, ok then. thats because it's Mag 9 and debuffs, recharge, movement and stealth to 50 and 65%! massive cost for massive power. maybe I underestimated the cost of the end that would be a fair trade for "in combat" in this case. I would appreciate a second opinion on what sort of end cost/sec would be sufficient. From where we could divide that up into end cost damage debuff and accuracy debuff or to hit or something.

0.6 end per second is no joke when most people only make it out to what? 2.93% thats like 1/4th the total end you have per second. granted I didn't mathematically equate the flight, fly speed and -fly protection to some sort of debuff. I assumed it was 1/4th of the price but I could be wrong. ok mag 4, so a mag 1 effect is worth how much of a toggle. more calculations necessary. lets get the first toggle type power with a mag I can find, tanker WP rise to the challenge, taunt mag 3 with tohit debuff: it looks like it's roughly worth half the power, so half the end per second is 0.105 per second /3 *4 = 0.14. 0.6+ 0.14 = 0.74 per second. that's a monstrous cost. name a toggle that costs that or more in game. I'd be surprised if one exists.

some fair points I agree some of these could be considerations in what the cost of using it in battle would be. there are no effects which specify aggressive action, there are however effects which specify "in battle" or "out of battle". Travel does come into consideration when the game decides whether you are in or out of battle. if you are moving with a travel power and do not have a target, or an attack power highlighted for activation, and something attacks you, you are not considered as "in battle" from what I know. Indeed it could take a Self -something when used in battle. obviously not self - speed or fly or def. as those are the traits it's used for. it could however be self - Damage, or Self - Accuracy or to hit or recovery, or maybe it just uses significantly more end in battle. For example: Weave uses 0.15 end per second out of the box and supplies 6.3% def all Afterburner uses 0.3 end per sec out of the box and supplies 18.8% def all It's double the end drain but the def is almost triple, so triple or quadruple the end drain in battle. Afterburner could use 0.6 end per second in battle and 0.3 out of battle. 4 times what weave uses. for 3 times the def and extra 1 for fly protection and flight speed etc.. thinking of sufficient punishments for using it in battle is all math. the question is, would people want this, I would indeed want it as specified it would really make my blaster tough enough. but, I need enough people to concur. it is a relatively "everyone that uses it" sorta topic when talking about changing a power. at present maybe there are 2 of us?

it's my original toon I spent close to all of 5 years on the floor with back in 2006 to 2010 before I finally decided to give it a rest and make other ATs. I've considered the sorcery pool, but it doesn't show in old mids.

the energy manipulation secondary power Energize, I have no idea why Mids and Paragon Wiki refer to it as "Conserve Power" and say it only grants an end discount, where mids says that but acknowledges it also grants regen. but yeah hasten right now is keeping that coming back more often. then again that's without LOTGS atm so we'll see later. in the future hasten will also effect Power Boost's recharge rate, from which I'll be getting some Def boosts for a short while. so keeping that on recharge would be wise.

Nope, I haven't updated mids since shutdown as well. So.. I might be missing some new things. I'll take a look at the sets you mentioned, I'll have to weigh their value against the powers and bonuses I have, I've capped regen and I'm like 2 points from capping damage. it's not perfect. yeah I'll consider some things. electric/energy. I'm at no loss of end most of the time. Just at lower levels which doesn't bother me too much. I was going to LOTG a lot but usually I only do it for the def, recharge and regen bonuses, with regen capped 50% of the time this is no longer an issue. This allowed me to save slots for other places and just slot the def/global rech on stealth and veng. others are 4 slotted or 5 slotted. regen alone wont keep it alive, especially only 50% of the time., at that point damage needs to be weighed evenly with defense with whatever res I can get without too much effort. that was the focus. Res is good, but as I learned with invul tanking, being able to take a hit and maybe heal afterwards, isn't as good as taking less hits then healing.. Phase shift, only effecting self. yeah, you're untouchable, has it's perks as described, but then it leaves you out of action for a bit. I'd rather be all action more kills, retreat if necessary, pop some insps and slam them again. a bit more def and that'd work. so.. we'll see. I might end up killing hasten. Go tell that to the guy in the nerf hasten thread. with the amount of recharge time powers and lotgs I have I probably don't need it anyways and it would be some extra def. which i'll be needing.

Nice list. not to nitpick or argue, I can tell this quest for Afterburner in combat is going nowhere. I have tough weave, invisibility and stealth (but stealth can't be used while invis is on so it's just for low level stuff) and leadership's maneuvers. munitions was for the body armor auto power and Surveillance and the LRM rocket. already using blaster's wrath, Defiant Barrage doesn't come up for any of my powers in mids. decided to go for damage bonuses instead of thunderstrike because.. yeah I'm lacking in damage, and the damage bonuses only need 2 to 4 slots to get them instead of 6. None of my powers show Artillery as a choice in mids.

I have 2 SL res powers and a large amount of regen and recovery. it's never going to reach the 75% res cap, not even close the powersets and attack types just don't support that, it's grueling to get the bonuses to get it and we aren't talking much.. so the best it can do is pump out def. luckily I will eventually have a def boosting power from my secondary. but yeah I need other options for def. I know munitions has lower def than hover, stealth, combat jumping, and invis. on a tank I would normally pick combat jumping. I could still sacrifice haste and get combat jumping instead. then have both. but, we'll see. I'm well aware of my options, and avoiding damage seems the best possible outcome.

ah, ok that makes sense then. yeah I can't remember there being such but.. typically all zones have at least 1 contact.

so I got Agent of Order (Atlas Park), Excavator (paragon wiki doesn't have this badge, it's for completing all missions in the hollows) and Aftershock (faultline) but I'm missing Kings row, skyway city, perez park and steel canyon (and echo:galaxy city for what it's worth) partly because there were some lower level contact chains I failed to get so I never got introduced to the contacts in those zones or if I did; not all of them. Ouro, from what I can see in ouro I have completed all missions of those levels except the praetorian archs, yet I am still missing the kings row accolade and so on and so forth. Are there such accolades? I'd imagine there are because there's one for faultline and that's a later zone. Is there any way to do these lost missions and contact arcs other than teaming with someone that level and doing them? could they be added into Ouro? On this topic it would be wonderful if Story archs from Echo: Galxy city and Echo: Dark Astoria could be done through ouro. as those to my knowledge are not available by any means. I appreciate the feedback.

I consider the difficulty of x1 to be global. as in every toon should be able to handle x1 (if things are balanced). the way I see it -1,x1 should be what you can handle out of the box or with minimal basic enhancements. +0, x1 should be what any toon hand handle with up to date normal enhancements of the best kind available at that level. (training, DO or SO) +1, x1 should be what any toon can handle with 1; careful planning and up-to-date normal enhancements (taking it slow), or 2; a mix of up to date normal enhancements and some IOs. +2, x1 should be what any toon can handle with 1; almost entirely IOs of the highest level possible, or 2: IOs and some sets. even if they have to take it slow. +3, x1 should be what any toon can handle with mostly Sets and some IOs. at a moderate pace. +4, x1 should be what a good build of any toon can handle with all sets fully slotted and catalyzed or boosted. at a moderate pace. I'm not asking for +4, x8 on a blaster here. just blasters should be able to handle x1 when built right. knowing a general feel of statistics and thier battle outcome, I know 30 to 40 def is like +2 to +3 tops. other compelling reasons would be to return fire in event a sniper can actually hit you. and to deal with hidden "stealth or invis" enemies that suddenly lock you down.. and of course ambushes and patrols. even another 20% (50 to 60) def isn't guaranteed to keep you alive in any basic context where you don't intend or expect to be attacked. but it would help to make it so you can at least struggle through. The goal is that a well built /anything/ fully slotted with sets appropriate to fill in it's weaknesses, should be able to handle +4, x1 without any serious trouble. a few struggles? yes. but if responded to in a timely manner you shouldn't find that you die anyways. Afterburner is that fix, after much grueling consideration.. edit: I might try a leadership build. but.. not too high hopes. still at least it's worth completing.

nah, I'm disappointed, I'm a wizard with mids, but this combo just doesn't work not without the extra def. 30% to 40% def is not enough for +4 x1 when the damage even when maxed out is lacking. if I can't kill a purple con in 4 or 5 hits, that's death. I am aware of the fact that CoH was built by the former devs to be quote "a challenge for the strongest" this is why blasters have always been kinda squishy. The minimum diff is supposed to be the minimum diff for something with a little extra primary or secondary survive-ability. I guess they figured that blasters could just team all the time to make up for it. in other words "not really meant to be a solo AT". Fly, my tank cannot take fly, it was kinda designed that way, I mean the game was designed so that it's kinda a problem for many melee types to take fly powers. simply because many melee sets have Click location TP attacks. (you cannot do these while flying, so you'd have to drop fly or hover.) this doesn't mean all melee sets are this way, but some of the biggest names are. So the main thing here is Afterburner is a power un-takeable or at least unusuable by the majority of the most potent melee builds (not without significant statistical sacrifices), in otherwords, a power meant for squishies. limiting them to using it only outside combat, kinda disappoints. If there are no changes, I'm planning to give up on my blaster. that's how serious a blow taking away afterburner in combat is to a blaster at least to my build. I'd have to chose a different primary set. given that this exercise was an attempt to rebuild my main toon from 2006ish, to attempt to see if "maybe, just maybe I was doing it wrong". the fact is nope I tried any number of focuses for the build. it fails. scrap. For now I'll put him on hiatus. if this changes great. if this doesn't change and I fill up 999 slots and need another.. well. guess it sucks to be his build.