Regen vs. Healing

[1gecko]

With everything back (thank you yet again!) to play - and the updates - I have been playing builds and ATs that I never bothered with much on Live.  And along with this came a bit of disturbing info:

 

Regen powers(ets) are largely hosed when it comes to slotting them (not that they weren't on Live).

 

They can only be slotted (mostly) with Endurance Reduction, Healing and Recharge (if not ONLY Healing) and Healing sets.  None of which offer bonuses to the power like other powers/powersets.  The "+x% to Healing / Healing bonuses" don't apply - neither on IOs or Incarnate abilities. The only 'technically' benefit is an additional place to slot one of the various 'special' healing IOs (such as Preventative's Absorb proc enhancement) - which really isn't a benefit since it uses a slot and you could have just put that slot in "Health" and had the same benefit for the same number of slots used (it is not somehow 'stronger' or more effective for having been put in the regen power).

 

A regen powerset's Absorb (ex: Instant Healing) power is the sole exception... kinda.  It *IS* effected by the various Incarnate Alpha abilities that offer "+x% to Absorb" - but NOT at the listed percentage or bonus above cap (it is substantially lower - like less than 10% bonus even with a Paragon Alpha's +33% /+22% above cap listed bonus).  Though again, the Absorb doesn't seem to be affected by the various IO powers either - you are just as well served (if not better served) by using the Crafted "Training" IOs and slotting straight Healing/Absorb.

So I am really wondering WHY this is - if anyone knows, please share.  And if I am incorrect on part of it (though I *KNOW* beyond doubt most of this is accurate by experimentation and talking with other Regen users), please share this also.

It really needs to be fixed/adjusted somehow - it is EXTREMELY annoying to be grouped with an AT that doesn't even have access to Regen/Absorb powers and yet (because slotting) has a HIGHER Regen and Absorb that someone with that powerset! (especially since I am using every trick and gimmick I can find / read about to boost mine)  It doesn't have to be some radical or lots of content (new IOs, etc.) fix - just adding a "+x% to Regen power" to some of the Healing IOs /Incarnate abilities to bring it in line with other power types would do.

[macskull]

I'm a bit confused by what the problem is here: if you're talking about the enhancements themselves, then slotting heal enhancements (TO/DO/SO/IO/whatever) affects regeneration or absorb of the power that is being enhanced (e.g. slotting a heal SO into Instant Healing boosts its regeneration value, slotting a heal SO into an absorb power boosts its absorb value, etc.). If you're talking about IO set bonuses then that's a little different - healing bonuses don't boost regeneration and vice versa because those are handled differently by the game engine. There are no set bonuses that boost absorb either (IMO heal bonuses should also boost absorb).

[MTeague]

Healing enhancements slotted into Fast Healing will boost the Regen it gives you. 

Slotting them into Integration will boost the Regen Integration gives you.  This is very very testable and verifiable.

 

As @macskullsays, Set Bonuses that give +% to all Healing Powers will not affect them. 

But they will affect Reconstruction and Dull Pain, since they're immediate instant-burst healing, not regeneration rate. 

And there are other set bonuses that will boost your regen rate specifically. 

[1gecko]

Thank you for the replies!

Yes, I realize that a Healing IO will boost the Regen/Absorb rate by the % bonus of the "Heal/Absorb" of the specific IO - I was indeed referring to the 'set' powers and Incarnate (primarily Alpha) powers that include a "+x% to Healing bonus" that do NOT apply to the power they are set in [even though logically it is a 'healing' set but the game engine treats differently].  And the similar problem with Absorb that, while your regen Absorb does get *some* boost off the Incarnate abilities, it is NOT at the listed percentage (the bonus % above cap for Alpha slot being easily measurable)!

 

And I (at least) feel it is a valid issue.  For example:  I had two Sentinels both at the same level (mid levels), one a Regen secondary and one an Electrical (defense) secondary.  The Electrical had an HIGHER Regen rate off of its sole 'regen' power with only 3 total slots (1 from power, 2 added) than the Regen secondary character with its ENTIRE powerset (and more heavily slotted 3 and 4 slotted powers)!!  And yes, where able they had the same IO sets that offered +set bonuses to Regen (Overwhelming Force, etc.).   Add in the increased defenses of the other defense secondary powers (Electrical in this case) and the additional added slots freed up that could be shifted to offense powers, and you get a HUGE difference in both durability *and* offense/damage in favor of the other powerset.

And that just doesn't seem appropriate or balanced.  And since the problem is amplified by IOs (and was never fixed in Live that I know of), it should probably be repaired through the IOs instead of messing with the entire powerset.

[macskull]

3 hours ago, 1gecko said:

Thank you for the replies!

Yes, I realize that a Healing IO will boost the Regen/Absorb rate by the % bonus of the "Heal/Absorb" of the specific IO - I was indeed referring to the 'set' powers and Incarnate (primarily Alpha) powers that include a "+x% to Healing bonus" that do NOT apply to the power they are set in [even though logically it is a 'healing' set but the game engine treats differently].  And the similar problem with Absorb that, while your regen Absorb does get *some* boost off the Incarnate abilities, it is NOT at the listed percentage (the bonus % above cap for Alpha slot being easily measurable)!

 

And I (at least) feel it is a valid issue.  For example:  I had two Sentinels both at the same level (mid levels), one a Regen secondary and one an Electrical (defense) secondary.  The Electrical had an HIGHER Regen rate off of its sole 'regen' power with only 3 total slots (1 from power, 2 added) than the Regen secondary character with its ENTIRE powerset (and more heavily slotted 3 and 4 slotted powers)!!  And yes, where able they had the same IO sets that offered +set bonuses to Regen (Overwhelming Force, etc.).   Add in the increased defenses of the other defense secondary powers (Electrical in this case) and the additional added slots freed up that could be shifted to offense powers, and you get a HUGE difference in both durability *and* offense/damage in favor of the other powerset.

And that just doesn't seem appropriate or balanced.  And since the problem is amplified by IOs (and was never fixed in Live that I know of), it should probably be repaired through the IOs instead of messing with the entire powerset.

The issue here is that you're trying to compare apples and oranges - while the Regeneration powerset might be named "Regeneration," that's not its only schtick. The Sentinel version also gets a heal that's on 2/3 of the cooldown of the one in Elec, an absorb toggle that's pretty damn good, another heal/+maxhp power, and one of the best T9's in the game.

[MTeague]

3 hours ago, 1gecko said:

Thank you for the replies!

Yes, I realize that a Healing IO will boost the Regen/Absorb rate by the % bonus of the "Heal/Absorb" of the specific IO - I was indeed referring to the 'set' powers and Incarnate (primarily Alpha) powers that include a "+x% to Healing bonus" that do NOT apply to the power they are set in [even though logically it is a 'healing' set but the game engine treats differently].  And the similar problem with Absorb that, while your regen Absorb does get *some* boost off the Incarnate abilities, it is NOT at the listed percentage (the bonus % above cap for Alpha slot being easily measurable)!

 

And I (at least) feel it is a valid issue.  For example:  I had two Sentinels both at the same level (mid levels), one a Regen secondary and one an Electrical (defense) secondary.  The Electrical had an HIGHER Regen rate off of its sole 'regen' power with only 3 total slots (1 from power, 2 added) than the Regen secondary character with its ENTIRE powerset (and more heavily slotted 3 and 4 slotted powers)!!  And yes, where able they had the same IO sets that offered +set bonuses to Regen (Overwhelming Force, etc.).   Add in the increased defenses of the other defense secondary powers (Electrical in this case) and the additional added slots freed up that could be shifted to offense powers, and you get a HUGE difference in both durability *and* offense/damage in favor of the other powerset.

And that just doesn't seem appropriate or balanced.  And since the problem is amplified by IOs (and was never fixed in Live that I know of), it should probably be repaired through the IOs instead of messing with the entire powerset.

I'll admit, that doesn't seem right, but I'd like more data.  Any chance you can list exactly what has what... a mids' for both?  Or heck even a just a screenshot showing the Manage Enhancements screen for both characters, and the Combat Powers listing for Regeneration?

 

Regen gets only 1 passive regeneration power, Fast Healing, which ... honestly isn't that that strong. 

But if you're running Integration (a toggle, entirely viable to have 100% uptime) decently slotted it goes up a LOT. 

The only other direct regeneration boost Regen gets is Instant Healing, and if your electric character can beat that, then Houston We Have A Problem.

Everything else /Regen gets is direct heals, passive damage resist, or oh-sh** buttons like MoG.

 

Caveat though, I'm talking based on my familarity with Scrapper/Stalker  versions of /Regen.

My only Sentinel thus far is /Fire.

Edited January 3, 2020 by MTeague

[MTeague]

Max HP also affect regen since everything is based off that... double check if there's a big discrepancy in Max HP for the two characters.  Maybe one was running Dull Pain and the other not?

[1gecko]

7 hours ago, MTeague said:

Max HP also affect regen since everything is based off that... double check if there's a big discrepancy in Max HP for the two characters.  Maybe one was running Dull Pain and the other not?

Ahh! did not think of that - will check again (they are almost the same level again 😉 - I trade off playing those two).

And also, I will try to post screenshots so the apples can be compared to the apples.

 

again - thanks all