Super Strength on Scrappers

[BasiliskXVIII]

I tend to think that SS isn't really a particularly "scrapper"-y powerset. Any character doing the things that a SS character does in a comic would typically fall under the purview of a Brute or a tank. SJ "feels" a lot more like how I envision super strength from a scrapper. Which means I wouldn't make one.

 

But the limits of my imagination are not a fair restriction to impose on others.

 

I also tend to think that Fire Armor and Radiation Armor are absolutely stupid concepts as armor sets. But I don't begrudge their presence in the game. Now, if there's a balancing issue with rage, then yeah, that should probably get sorted before getting translated, but it would hardly be the first time we see a power set change in being adapted to another AT. My /Regen stalker deeply resents the loss of Quick Recovery, for instance. Other than that, though? Let the Stalkers have SS.

[Stormwalker]

11 hours ago, Xion80 said:

Being disproven with receipts tends have that effect on folks in a debate. That Juggernaut scan really "hand clapped" your whole dissertation, so I get it. It's nothing personal, I just don't like misinformation. 

 

"Argument"!? I guess you're talking about yourself, as I'm not angry or heated in any aspect. From my perspective, we're just two soldiers "shooting the shit" outside the staff duty desk, while smoking cigarettes. If you're ready to go back inside, it's no biggy.  We both will be on the same battlefield tomorrow, despite our differences of opinion. Salute!

 

The reason I said I'm sick of arguing with you is twofold, and not the reason you seem to think.

1). I don't think damage numbers are relevant to this conversation at all.  I don't think your standpoint that they are relevant is rational.  Therefore I don't think we can have a rational discussion on the matter.  Having reached that conclusion, there is no point in arguing with you any further.  Period.  You can go on thinking you won the argument if you like (I honestly do not care), but do understand that you have not changed my viewpoint in the slightest.  You've only succeeded in annoying me to the point that I don't want to talk to you anymore.

2). Your constant barrage of gifs was literally giving me a headache, and it was pissing me off, which was making it hard for me to argue without saying something that would get me warned by the moderators.  Therefore, it was in my best interest to stop.

 

And that's the last I'm going to say to you on the subject.  Imagine there is a Willy Wonka "I said 'Good day!'" gif here.

Edited 16 hours ago by Stormwalker

[Stormwalker]

3 hours ago, BasiliskXVIII said:

I tend to think that SS isn't really a particularly "scrapper"-y powerset. Any character doing the things that a SS character does in a comic would typically fall under the purview of a Brute or a tank. SJ "feels" a lot more like how I envision super strength from a scrapper. Which means I wouldn't make one.

 

But the limits of my imagination are not a fair restriction to impose on others.

 

I also tend to think that Fire Armor and Radiation Armor are absolutely stupid concepts as armor sets. But I don't begrudge their presence in the game. Now, if there's a balancing issue with rage, then yeah, that should probably get sorted before getting translated, but it would hardly be the first time we see a power set change in being adapted to another AT. My /Regen stalker deeply resents the loss of Quick Recovery, for instance. Other than that, though? Let the Stalkers have SS.

 

First off, I completely agrree with you about Rad Armor - the very concept makes no sense to me,.  But, I also agree with and salute your statement about the limits of our imaginations.  Thus, I don't begrudge people who play Rad Armor - they have ideas that work with it, and they're having fun, and that's great!  I won't make a Rad Armor character myself, but I have no objection to the set being available for those who want it.  I do kinda get Fire, and I have a Brute that uses it, but she's a very unconventional character, so I can definitely understand how applications for it would not be immediately apparent.

 

I do think SS can be employed by a scrapper, but then it should be noted I define the differences between Scrappers, Brutes, and Tankers a little differently than some players do.

 

To me, the difference between the melee AT's is mostly one's approach to combat than physical abilities.  In other words, I define the difference between AT's by narrative and personality more than by capability.

1. The Tanker is the Superman type.  It's not defined so much by being incredibly tough as by having a defensive combat mindset.  The Tanker is a protector, seeking to use their superhuman abilities to put themselves in harm's way to shield others.  They tend to be more defensive in focus because this is what they do.  Defend.  The defining feature of the Tanker is that they seek to draw the enemy's aggression to themselves.

2. The Brute is the brute force melee type, like Juggernaut.  They tend to enjoy violence and want to inflict as much of it as they possibly can.  They don't tend to be terribly technical about combat, preferring to instead overwhelm their opponent with raw power.  They're nearly always fueled by anger.  The defining characteristic of the Brute is being an offensive fighter who favors raw power over skill.

3. The Scrapper is exactly that... one who scraps.  One who savors the fight.  They are skilled combatants (not that Tankers and Brutes cannot be skilled, but it is not their primary focus, and it is the scrapper's primary focus.  Wolverine is the best there is at what he does - and he boasts of that because he's proud of it.  They are not above enjoying the feral rush of combat, but they also relish the test of their skills against another, and this is frequently (though not always) what drives them.  They frequently win battles by technique, cleverness, and guile.  The defining characteristic of the Scrapper that of being an offensive fighter who favors skill over raw power.  If you grandstand in fights?  You are probably a Scrapper, because that joy of proving your superior skill is characteristic of the Scrapper.

 

For example: Why do I consider the Metropolis Kid (Superboy, pre half-Kryptonian retcons) a Super Strength Scrapper?

1. He's a lot more aggressive fighter than Superman.  He tended to try to take the fight to his opponents, rather than bringing them to himself.  Now, LIke any hero, sometimes he threw himself into harm's way to protect others, but it wasn't his usual approach.  Usually he tried to take the opponent down before they could threaten others.  Thus, he's not a Tanker.  Pre-emptive strike is absolutely not the preferred tactic of Tankers (though they may resort to it when they have to.  Every AT has to step out of its comfort zone sometimes).

2. He's rash, impulsive, hot-blooded, sure, but he's  not particularly angry.  He clearly enjoys the fight.  He grandstands.  He makes witty comments,  He's *having the time of his life* being a superhero.  This is characteristic of a Scrapper, and the lack of anger is not characteristic of a Brute.

3. He frequently won fights by outthinking his opponents, using the enviornment to his advantage, and finding creative ways to use his powers (notably the tactile telekinesis) to defeat opponents rather than overpowering them with raw strength.  This is to say, he did not fight like a Brute, he fought like a Scrapper.  Sure, he was super strong, but he almost never won a fight with superior strength.  He almost always won it through guile or skill.

 

And he's my definitive example of a Super Strength Scrapper, for that reason.  And one of the biggest reasons I think Scrappers should get access to the set.

Edited 16 hours ago by Stormwalker
fix typo

[Stormwalker]

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

Here is my two cents on Super Strength being available to Scrappers. First, a definition so we have a point of reference for the discussion. Super strength is strength beyond the maximum capabilities of a normal human being. That's it. So super strength encompasses a very, very, very wide range of capabilities. This means super strength can range from a character that can juggle large motorcycles easily but can't lift that full size sedan all the way up to characters that can lift a fully loaded supercarrier or even a continental plate and toss them to the other side of the world one-handed with no effort and even beyond. This also means that there are entire races that are by default super strong. Like the Asgardians in Marvel comics.

 

Second, having super strength does not itself have any correlation to a character being able to withstand harm. Yes, there are many examples of super strong characters that are also some form of invulnerable. Because just like super strength, invulnerability encompasses a very wide range of capabilities. There is a reason why the question of just how invulnerable <character name> is when other characters are trying to figure out how to defeat said character. This means that you can have super strong characters like Captain America who derives his protection from the (scale mail) armored costume he wears and the vibranium shield he carries. This also means you can have super strong characters like Spider-Man who rely on evading hits to get by. And even with invulnerable characters, you see a range of what would be armor sets in this game. From Superman who simply tanks that 16" gun shot like it was nothing to Hulk who tanks that same hit but also regenerates his injuries at an impossible rate (effectively making him a Willpower character in City of Heroes). So any discussion of whether Scrappers should get access to Super Strength can effectively leave any discussion of armor sets out.

 

All that said, this is a video game and video games need to have game balance. So to me, that is the primary question. Would Scrapper Super Strength be balanced? If the answer is no for any reason, then the question becomes can it be made balanced. If it can be made balanced, then it is up to the devs to decide if they ahve time or desire to invest the effort in doing so.

 

Now here is where I start throwing caveats and other considerations. Like you don't need to be using Super Strength to have a super strong character. The common response is to make a Street Justice character. And the common retort is that Street Justice is not super strength. However, again, super strength is a range. So maybe your character is a low end super strong character and has taken up martial arts (either as Street Justice or as Martial Arts) to be a more effective combatant or has taken up a weapon to fight with. Or maybe your character is at such a high end of super strength that the character uses martial arts as a restraint on himself/herself/themselves/itself to not simply delete every being that character makes contact with. The whole discipline and focus aspect of martial arts being used to help the character interact with the world in a safe manner. For instance, I took my ninja mastermind into a group RP chat back on Live. One of the super strong characters in the channel decided he was going to "flex" and chucked a semi truck with trailer at my MM. My MM evaded, then picked up the semi with trailer and threw it back at the other character. And not a single soul erupted with cries like "You can't do that! You're just a MM!". Instead the responses were "Holy crap! We've got a strong MM here! Just how strong are you?".

 

First off, I totally agree with what you said in the first three paragraphs.  Completely and without hesitation.

 

On the fourth paragraph... I agree that a character can be super strong without using the Super Strength set, but... with the caveat that I also don't feel like any of the unarmed combat sets we have for Scrappers currently captures the feel of superhuman strength. 

 

 

The unarmed combat sets we have for Scrappers:

• Martial Arts.  It's fast, it's full of very fancy, showy kicks and a pinpoint strike (Cobra Strike) which draws its power from technique rather than strength.  It's the closest thing we have to a Dick Grayson powerset becuase of the acrobatics (though it doesn't really capture his style, either, it just has the right kind of grandstanding for it).  I love the set, but it very much does not feel like someone with superhuman strength.  I have two Martial Arts characters.  One of them is a Natural who has no strength enhancement at all.  The second is a Mutant who has variable strength enhancement (her strength is directly proportionate to how strongly she believes in what she is fighting for), so she can't count on being super strong all the time, so her fighting style explicitly doesn't depend on it.
• Street Justice.  People point at Street Justice a lot in these , but... Street Justice feels to me like someone is taking huge windups to deal those big hits, which is something a character with super strength explicitly doesn't need to do.  They generate that power without the huge wind-up because they're just that strong.  Yes, KO Blow in the Super Strength set also involves a huge windup, but that comically overdone windup really looks more to me like making a show of winding up than actually winding up, so it doesn't feel out of place.  I have a character who uses Street Justice, but she doesn't have superhuman strength.  She fights with techniques borrowed from a wide variety of combat arts, and she does need to wind up to hit someone really hard, so the set feels just right for her.
• Dark Melee.  Back before Street Justice existed, this was the go-to set for someone who wanted to feel like Batman.  Personally, I can't overlook the smoke clouds, and it feels much more super-fast than super-strong to me anyhow.

None of these sets really suit a super-strong character.  So, if I want a super-strong unarmed character now, I have to go to Tanker or Brute, whose mechanics really don't suit the characters' personalities in my head.  I made Sylvie Stardrive (my Bubblegum Crisis inspired powersuit character) a Tanker, but she really, really ought to be a Scrapper, because narratively she fits the Scrapper mold much better.  She's aggressive, almost reckless, she *enjoys* the fight and testing her skills, she's a bit hot-blooded, and she's definitely inclined toward pre-eemptive strike as a tactic.

Edited 15 hours ago by Stormwalker
fix typo (I am making way too many typos tonight)

[Rudra]

7 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

First off, I totally agree with what you said in the first three paragraphs.  Completely and without hesitation.

 

On the fourth paragraph... I agree that a character can be super strong without using the Super Strength set, but... with the caveat that I also don't feel like any of the unarmed combat sets we have for Scrappers currently captures the feel of superhuman strength. 

 

 

The unarmed combat sets we have for Scrappers:

• Martial Arts.  It's fast, it's full of very fancy, showy kicks and a pinpoint strike (Cobra Strike) which draws its power from technique rather than strength.  It's the closest thing we have to a Dick Grayson powerset becuase of the acrobatics (though it doesn't really capture his style, either, it just has the right kind of grandstanding for it).  I love the set, but it very much does not feel like someone with superhuman strength.  I have two Martial Arts characters.  One of them is a Natural who has no strength enhancement at all.  The second is a Mutant who has variable strength enhancement (her strength is direction proportionate to how strongly she believes in what she is fighting for), so she can't count on being super strong all the time, so her fighting style explicitly doesn't depend on it.
• Street Justice.  People point at Street Justice a lot in these , but... Street Justice feels to me like someone is taking huge windups to deal those big hits, which is something a character with super strength explicitly doesn't need to do.  They generate that power without the huge wind-up because they're just that strong.  Yes, KO Blow in the Super Strength set also involves a huge windup, but that comically overdone windup really looks more to me like making a show of winding up than actually winding up, so it doesn't feel out of place.  I have a character who uses Street Justice, but she doesn't have superhuman strength.  She fights with techniques borrowed from a wide variety of combat arts, and she does need to wind up to hit someone really hard, so the set feels just right for her.
• Dark Melee.  Back before Street Justice existed, this was the go-to set for someone who wanted to feel like Batman.  Personally, I can't overlook the smoke clouds, and it feels much more super-fast than super-strong to me anyhow.

None of these sets really suit a super-strong character.  So, if I want a super-strong unarmed character now, I have to go to Tanker or Brute, whose mechanics really don't suit the characters' personalities in my head.  I made Sylvie Stardrive (my Bubblegum Crisis inspired powersuit character) a Tanker, but she really, really ought to be a Scrapper, because narratively she fits the Scrapper mold much better.  She's aggressive, almost reckless, she *enjoys* the fight and testing her skills, she's a bit hot-blooded, and she's definitely inclined toward pre-eemptive strike as a tactic.

I'm not going to argue how a set feels to someone other than me. How a person feels about something is entirely a subjective thing that is only applicable to that person. As far as my 4th paragraph in the post you are referring to goes, it isn't a mandate for others to follow or an argument against Super Strength as a power set being made available to Scrappers. It is strictly to point out that there are other ways of playing a super strong character in the game. My ninja MM doesn't have a single melee attack for instance, just the 3 bow attacks, but is still super strong. That character just doesn't choose to use said super strength and lets the minions handle things. (Though if I had room for a few more powers and the enhancement slots to fully enhance them, I would add a melee attack chain focused on maxing out my possible melee damage to show that. I don't have the room for powers or enhancements because I like having the bow attacks,, so I don't.) That you don't like that option is perfectly fine. There are as many different views on how to make a character in any given game system as there are players making said character(s). Though I will say that as far as super strong characters using Street Justice goes, at least for me, that wind up can either be the character winding up to do more damage or the character pausing as (s)he/they/it reminds himself/herself/themselves/itself to not go all out or that target will die horribly. So to each their own.

[Stormwalker]

17 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I'm not going to argue how a set feels to someone other than me. How a person feels about something is entirely a subjective thing that is only applicable to that person. As far as my 4th paragraph in the post you are referring to goes, it isn't a mandate for others to follow or an argument against Super Strength as a power set being made available to Scrappers. It is strictly to point out that there are other ways of playing a super strong character in the game. My ninja MM doesn't have a single melee attack for instance, just the 3 bow attacks, but is still super strong. That character just doesn't choose to use said super strength and lets the minions handle things. (Though if I had room for a few more powers and the enhancement slots to fully enhance them, I would add a melee attack chain focused on maxing out my possible melee damage to show that. I don't have the room for powers or enhancements because I like having the bow attacks,, so I don't.) That you don't like that option is perfectly fine. There are as many different views on how to make a character in any given game system as there are players making said character(s). Though I will say that as far as super strong characters using Street Justice goes, at least for me, that wind up can either be the character winding up to do more damage or the character pausing as (s)he/they/it reminds himself/herself/themselves/itself to not go all out or that target will die horribly. So to each their own.

 

Yeah, and I wasn't giving my caveats as a criticism.  Just adding my own opinion on the situation in that case as it specifically relates to Scrappers.

 

I generally find your takes highly reasonable and rarely disagree with them.  Even when I do disagree with you, it's usually in the nuances and not in the core of the argument.