Schedule of + Res Enhancements and Building

[marcussmythe]

Semi-random observation:

 

Between the low scheduling of +Res Enhancements, the low values of many +Res Powers, the fantastic mitigation provided by +DEF (and the relative ease of +DEF from IOs and extra powers), Im seeing more and more people skipping +RES passives or turning them into mules, ignoring enhancing the actual +RES portion of the power.

 

I know that in particular Ive been advised that the resist elements in invuln is skippable - and this makes some sense.  When was the last time fire damage killed you?  Me neither.  Energy OTOH...

 

Not really call to action, just funny thought.

 

[Generator]

I know that in particular Ive been advised that the resist elements in invuln is skippable - and this makes some sense.  When was the last time fire damage killed you?  Me neither.  Energy OTOH...

 

Not really call to action, just funny thought.

 

I'll be honest, I wouldn't feel comfortable skipping out on ResEl on my Tanker.  As you point out, rare will be the Fire Damage attack that seals the deal, but I'd feel like I had left the figurative door open, letting the Fire damage undercut me enough that the other stuff could finish me off.

 

I'll admit, this could easily just be me being paranoid, and playing into other habits of mine (I have a strong tendency, for instance, to overvalue my Primary & Secondary sets).  But it's where I'm coming from, for better or worse.

 

Either way, thanks for making me think about it.

 

Generator

[marcussmythe]

I know that in particular Ive been advised that the resist elements in invuln is skippable - and this makes some sense.  When was the last time fire damage killed you?  Me neither.  Energy OTOH...

 

Not really call to action, just funny thought.

 

I'll be honest, I wouldn't feel comfortable skipping out on ResEl on my Tanker.  As you point out, rare will be the Fire Damage attack that seals the deal, but I'd feel like I had left the figurative door open, letting the Fire damage undercut me enough that the other stuff could finish me off.

 

I'll admit, this could easily just be me being paranoid, and playing into other habits of mine (I have a strong tendency, for instance, to overvalue my Primary & Secondary sets).  But it's where I'm coming from, for better or worse.

 

Either way, thanks for making me think about it.

 

Generator

 

Ive been thinking about it more.  Got called out on a build after I had wrecked Endurance Recovery pursuing DEF and RES, and then looking at other builds that gladly throw a few % points of resist overboard to save a slot or three - where that slot can provide MORE Res against things that matter by going into providing a set bonus.

 

Bigger think... It seems to me that RES shows the most value in the 40-60% range.  While it looks nice on paper to go from say 80% to 90%... Im pretty sure not much is going to kill you at 80% resist.  On the other hand, sub 40% - the mob just splattered you across the pavement, assuming its a nice big pull and they all do that type - barring significant DEF. 

 

I also wonder if thats why WP 'feels' better for me than something like Invuln, once IOs hit - it gains tons of healing, of END, closes the psionics hole, and still reaches DEF softcap.  What does it give up?  Well, it takes a hit to most resistances (but your softcapped and healing faster) and gives up a HUGE amount of Smash/Lethal - but by late game, Smash/Lethal is no longer the vast majority of the damage - energy and psi are getting thrown around in buckets. 

 

When was the last time S/L killed a tank at 50 in IOs?  Honest question.  It seems to me the killers are Energy, Psi, and debuffs.

[Generator]

Bigger think... It seems to me that RES shows the most value in the 40-60% range.  While it looks nice on paper to go from say 80% to 90%... Im pretty sure not much is going to kill you at 80% resist.  On the other hand, sub 40% - the mob just splattered you across the pavement, assuming its a nice big pull and they all do that type - barring significant DEF. 

 

Hmm, well Invuln, assuming 3 SOs worth of slotting to Unyielding and the passives, provides what, about 32% to F/C/E/N, or 80% of what you're considering to be the minimally sufficient value.  Can't be that hard to close the door the rest of the way, can it?  (Of course, assuming opportunity costs don't rise too steeply, but that's the real question, I guess.)

[marcussmythe]

Im more suggesting that what Invuln is 'granted' in the form of its 90% S/L isnt worth the cost in other places, and that the WP or other sets that can get into the 40-60% range while having so much more other stuff like regen, or END, or whatever may show a bit better in IOs.

 

This isnt 'Invuln is turruble' arguement, Im just thinking about how IOs impact various sets in a disparate fashion.

[Generator]

This isnt 'Invuln is turruble' arguement, Im just thinking about how IOs impact various sets in a disparate fashion.

 

Point made.  To be sure, I didn't think this was that sort of post, but as someone with an Invuln/SS near and dear to my heart it got me thinking.

[jack_nomind]

Very roughly, your effective defenses can be modeled as 100/(100-2D) * 100/(100-R).  D is your Defense (limit to 45) and R is your Resist (limit to 90).  The number that comes out is how many times more survivable you are than at base.  Here's a little chart with Defense on the vertical and Resist on the horizontal.

 

D/R	20	40	60	80	85	90
10	1.56	2.08	3.13	6.25	8.33	12.5
20	2.08	2.78	4.167	8.33	11.11	16.67
30	3.13	4.167	6.25	12.5	16.67	25
40	6.25	8.33	12.5	25	33.33	50
42.5	8.33	11.11	16.67	33.33	44.44	66.67
45	12.5	16.67	25	50	66.67	100

 

I'm not clever enough to figure out how to add borders to cells in BBcode, unfortunately.  That being said, looking at the diagonal line can be pretty instructive.  Tankers in the "middling" range of 30%/60% end up with 6.25x effective hit points, but pushing out to either end (45% or 90%) without changing the other value raises that to 25x.  The last little bits at the end really matter -- note that the steps final few steps (e.g. 80-85-90 for Resists) are tiny, but have enormous impact.

[marcussmythe]

Very roughly, your effective defenses can be modeled as 100/(100-2D) * 100/(100-R).  D is your Defense (limit to 45) and R is your Resist (limit to 90).  The number that comes out is how many times more survivable you are than at base.  Here's a little chart with Defense on the vertical and Resist on the horizontal.

 

D/R	20	40	60	80	85	90
10	1.56	2.08	3.13	6.25	8.33	12.5
20	2.08	2.78	4.167	8.33	11.11	16.67
30	3.13	4.167	6.25	12.5	16.67	25
40	6.25	8.33	12.5	25	33.33	50
42.5	8.33	11.11	16.67	33.33	44.44	66.67
45	12.5	16.67	25	50	66.67	100

 

I'm not clever enough to figure out how to add borders to cells in BBcode, unfortunately.  That being said, looking at the diagonal line can be pretty instructive.  Tankers in the "middling" range of 30%/60% end up with 6.25x effective hit points, but pushing out to either end (45% or 90%) without changing the other value raises that to 25x.  The last little bits at the end really matter -- note that the steps final few steps (e.g. 80-85-90 for Resists) are tiny, but have enormous impact.

 

Agreed.  But my point more being that (it seems to me) once a tank gets to softcap plus 50-60% resist... thats enough to not die, in my admittedly limited experience.  Better to have no holes to anything, and not die, than to have vulnerabilities, and not-die-even-harder to certain damage types. 

 

90% Smashing/Lethal Resistance Plus softcap DEF looks really sexy on paper, I'll grant.  I just dont think theres much in the game that -justifies- going for it.  Similarly, you can burn a -lot- of slots pushing from 40-50% resist to energy - to almost no benefit - because the resist powers we get for it aren't very good, and resist enhancements aren't very good, and (as you illustrate) the real value of improvements doesn't kick in until the last percentage points...

 

but as above, almost nothing in the game values those very high resist %s.  I think this is some of where my love affair with Shield Defense comes in - POSITIONAL Defense (no holes) and adequate, broad-spectrum resists - no holes.  Almost nothing in the game kills you through your primary resist axis - they kill you through your holes, or through debuffs.