Just how powerful is Dual Pistols with Page 6 finally out?

[SmokinIndo]

Suppressive Fire and Piercing Rounds both got significant buffs. Suppressive Fire's base recharge has been reduced to 8 seconds, which makes it a perfect Proc Monster. It's been given a significant hold magnitude, with cryogenic rounds giving it a mag 4 hold. And to top it off, it's base damage is on par with Pistols. I see Suppressive Fire as an almost mandatory pick for builds simply because of the chance for Procs, opportunity for set bonuses, and the hold.

 

Now onto Piercing Rounds. To be honest, I think this ability is still mostly skippable. It's a -res, and even though it lasts for 15 seconds, I've always found powers with -res to be pretty average. The damage per animation second is low, and the cone is so narrow it's basically a single target attack. I would love to be proven wrong.

 

The problem I'm facing is where I'm going to fit Suppressive Fire. I would love to swap out Pistols, but I'm locked into taking 2 of the first 3 powers in the set, and Empty Clips is an awkward and short range cone attack. When I do respec into Suppressive Fire, should I proc it, or try to get some juicy +defense with the Winter IO set? Has anyone taken the new DP for a spin?

 

I'd love some feedback on the set.

[oldskool]

First things first, answering the question of the post itself. Just how powerful is dual pistols in the current update. Answer: Slightly better than it was, but just how effective that improvement is depends on a whole lot of factor. These factors can include: 

- Specific power slotting

- Specific Archetype 

- Your total recharge

- Specific Secondary choices (or for Defenders, their primary)

- Whether you solo or group more

- What your own goals are

- And so on

[Dual Pistols is a complex set, which I like, but that is a detriment to the set overall because you bend over backwards to make it tread water more often than not. It isn't like the knowledge that goes into the set pays off in some secret reward when one can pick Fire Blast instead and roll their face on the keyboard. lololololol...]

 

RE: Suppressive Fire... 

 

Suppressive Fire was always good for procs. The change does reduce some of that damage, but you can fire the attack twice in the same time span vs the original's recharge. So, that is a nice buff. But how effective is it for damage? Well... that can get complicated. 

 

Let's take a back step and consider the following set of questions. What kind of Blaster do you plan to play? Do you plan to mix it up in melee? Do you plan to just sit back and pew pew? Do you care at all about set bonuses for the purposes of defense bonuses? 

You see, the new Suppressive Fire's significant impact on your single target damage cycle really only matters most in the context of using it with a mostly ranged routine (it is not a replacement to Executioner's Shot). On top of this, how you choose to slot Suppressive Fire is going to really make or break that power (full proc load out or not). So, the change to Suppressive Fire as a DPS add can become a 'meh' or even skip choice to certain Blaster builds. If you *really* want to explore proc damage without any care to defensive set bonuses, then the Sentinel is a pretty good choice for this. We're talking about a single target all ranged attack routine, and well... that's pretty much what the Sentinel does. If you're playing a Blaster, then there is a good chance you care a lot about AoE. On top of that you likely have better single target options in your secondary if all we care about is the most possible damage. 

Anyway, if one wanted to really push Suppressive Fire (at least with sets), then I would recommend using the 5pc Apocalypse set + Unbreakable Constraint damage proc. That'll set Suppressive Fire's damage reasonably high. Executioner's Shot then becomes a great place for Superior Blaster's Wrath. Both of these loadouts grant you set bonuses. This can enable Pistols + Suppressive Fire + Executioner's Shot as a fully ranged attack routine which does OK damage. 

And I really wanna stress... the above isn't the optimal way to slot Executioner's Shot. Hell, it isn't even the optimal way to play a Blaster (Blapping tends to do more damage, and more AoE is essentially the AT's niche). Its just the most bang (heh) for your buck when considering those three specific powers in the a total vacuum which just isn't a great way to plan out a Blaster. [And the difference of swapping the slotting between the two is likely going to be pretty low single digit loss in DPS; its peanuts] However, if you *really* wanna do it, then that is the slotting for those two powers I would recommend. If you can get away with proccing *any* power, then Executioner's shot is still better. That's even assuming all 6 slots devoted to nothing but procs. See where I am going with this? Suppressive Fire's change is nice, but it does not revolutionize Dual Pistols. Hell, if you have a better choice to replace it with from your secondary, then Suppressive Fire may not even be a consideration, at all. 

RE: Piercing Rounds... 

The change, in my opinion, is better in some ways for Corruptors and Defenders than it is for anyone else. You can run Chemical Ammo to debuff damage dealt and still impose the negative to resistance to support the team. Blasters could do that too, but when considering raw DPA powers there just better options. Piercings Rounds, in general, is still pretty meh for single target and for AoE its pretty much a waste of time. It can be effective as a team support power though. 

The changes to Suppressive Fire do toss a bit of a wrench into the mix which raises a question of do I use Piercing Rounds with it (i.e., Piercing Rounds -> Executioner's Shot -> Suppresive Fire -> filler) or keep to the classic routine at high recharge (i.e., Piercing Rounds -> Pistols -> Executioner's Shot -> Pistols). 

My thought is if you can have a high enough global recharge to have Executioner's Shot recharge in 2.9 seconds or less, then Piercing Rounds may end up being either a DPS loss or just break even. That recharge number is significant because Pistols + Suppressive Fire animates in that time frame. This also means the following: 

Executioner's Shot + Suppressive Fire + Pistols (its filler) + Executioner's Shot is not only possible, but spans 6.6 seconds of time. Contrast that with... 

 

Piercing Rounds + Pistols + Executioner's Shot + Pistols spanning 6.864 seconds, or even replacing a use of Pistols with Suppressive Fire going up to 7.392 seconds. 

If you can do more damage in 6.6 seconds using the faster animating skills, despite the existence of the resistance debuff, then Piercing Rounds is going to lose its value. This is especially noticeable on Sentinels because their version of the debuff is the worst, but it can be present on Blasters too. At the very least, there is the considerable opportunity cost of Piercing Rounds vs other options. On Corrs/Fenders, this is more a question of "Do I want to stack another 15% to 20% resistance debuff on top of my other resistance debuff options?". 

Anyway, that's what I had gathered when the changes were on test. There are going to be use cases with various personas that all of the above is absolutely meaningless. When looking at optimization (which is really what this entire question skirts around) things like extreme recharge matter. Your overall recharge is going to dictate what kinds of animation constraint yields the best results with various combinations of powers. 

[brasilgringo]

welp

ask Ston

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by brasilgringo

[Zep]

On 5/6/2023 at 6:13 PM, SmokinIndo said:

Suppressive Fire and Piercing Rounds both got significant buffs. Suppressive Fire's base recharge has been reduced to 8 seconds, which makes it a perfect Proc Monster. It's been given a significant hold magnitude, with cryogenic rounds giving it a mag 4 hold. And to top it off, it's base damage is on par with Pistols. I see Suppressive Fire as an almost mandatory pick for builds simply because of the chance for Procs, opportunity for set bonuses, and the hold.

 

Now onto Piercing Rounds. To be honest, I think this ability is still mostly skippable. It's a -res, and even though it lasts for 15 seconds, I've always found powers with -res to be pretty average. The damage per animation second is low, and the cone is so narrow it's basically a single target attack. I would love to be proven wrong.

 

The problem I'm facing is where I'm going to fit Suppressive Fire. I would love to swap out Pistols, but I'm locked into taking 2 of the first 3 powers in the set, and Empty Clips is an awkward and short range cone attack. When I do respec into Suppressive Fire, should I proc it, or try to get some juicy +defense with the Winter IO set? Has anyone taken the new DP for a spin?

 

I'd love some feedback on the set.

Solo I tend to use piercing rounds as an opening attack and regularly hit 2-3 targets dropping them or at least taking them to a sliver.

 

In a group piercing rounds still regularly lets me hit 2 targets, sometimes 1 sometimes 3.

 

I think a lot has to do with playstyle, I am very mobile and tend to move a lot, which could reduce how often I fire while allowing me to better pick my shots. That isnt the only way to play and not something that works for everyone.

 

I'm gonna have to go spend some time on my DP/Dev blaster and check things out.

[Zep]

Just did a solo mission - didnt feel much different to be honest, having the hold back up earlier was nifty though.

[High_Beam]

Here's the thing, when it was on Brainstorm, and I was testing on several types of characters with it (3 Blasters, a Sentinel, a Corr and a Def (I like Dual Pistols)) I was really really effing pissed about the changes to Suppressive Fire, in part because in my testing I saw it as nothing but a nerf.  I do not judge a power at its base by how well it procs; not saying those who do are wrong but that's not how I roll; procs are icing on the cake.  My lockdown times were down and as has been pointed out the damage isn't big in trade.  But also I was not giving it a full run and as such my data was not accurate.  When the changes went live I tested it again on Brainstorm, doing a respec to put two damage and two hold into it (I was unwilling to make too many compromises from what I saw as an optimum build in Di Di Guns).  Then I ran around popping bad guys new blow holes.

 

Suppressive Fire with chill rounds lets me lock Bosses (+3 mostly but some +4) and with my recharge set properly I can snap it off again before it expires which allows me to keep them in a continual block of ice.  Conversely, the bump up in damage is value added while I work the Boss.  I can get two other shots in before I have to reapply Suppressive which recharges.  The +4 guys sometimes get out before but still, all in all I have to say Suppressive Fire, in my opinion, is a must have for a soloist.

 

Piercing Rounds.  Screw that noise.  Slow ass animating power.  Annoying like Dominate Will on a Psi Blaster except I cant outrun the animation.  Damage or not I don't want to be angry playing my character.