Saga Mode

[tidge]

9 hours ago, battlewraith said:

Again no. This is a mode that people who had unlocked it would experience. It has nothing to do with balance across all the game's content. That was even a criticism leveled at it--that once you passed those early levels the character would probably be weaker than one with IOs.

 

The "unlock" wouldn't matter, because either it is going to be ridiculously tedious (every character in the account has unlocked all the mission badges, and then it has to relock again... because that 'new character' won't have 'enjoyed all the low level content' yet) or ridiculously easy (have a level 50 character on the account).

 

This dance around game balance where the argument in favor of the ask to toss out the established power progression is IMO revealing. The prestige and temp attacks existed for a LONG time before HC, and they helped to improve the low-level experience. Those *were* and *are* balanced against the low level content, because the lack of attacks (for some AT) was a grind mechanism (intended or not) that was holding some ATs back from getting to the 'good stuff' that can define the ATs. If nukes become available at lower levels... then the nukes will be scaled down, very much like how Kheldian Nova form attacks are... and if a player has truly experienced "all the content and is bored" they probably know just how poorly those Nova form attacks play out above levels 20, 30, 40. The game isn't going to have multiple scales for powers based on a player's boredom quotient.

 

There is no convincing me that this isn't an ask for "gimme the good stuff, NOW, when I want it." The very peculiar reason "um, concept is the character is a literal god with no control over its power" CAN be worked into the existing lore for any character... Deity Man the 'not having the power yet' is the first level of 'lack of control', unlocking the power but not having it slotted is the next level of 'lack of control', and where Deity Man goes next is up to the player. My heart is not going to break because a character doesn't have a x-minute recharging nuke before level 20.

[battlewraith]

27 minutes ago, tidge said:

There is no convincing me that this isn't an ask for "gimme the good stuff, NOW, when I want it."

 

There have always been people you can't convince. There are people who could never be convinced to pvp. There are people who can never be convinced that PLing is ok. There are probably people who can't ever be convinced to play red side for some reason. That's not an argument, it's just someone's bias.

 

But it is hilarious to me how divorced this is from the actual motivations I have for this proposal, which is about doing something different in terms of power selections, builds, leveling than what I typically do. And this is in a game that is over 20 years old and with areas of content (red, gold) that are largely unplayed. Ooooooooh this guy wants good stuff now. As opposed to what, waiting another 20 years for the fruits of your dogmatism to blossom?

 

Trying to discredit "the very peculiar reason, un concept" I mentioned regarding the narratives we apply to game characters really shows how myopic you're being. You sound like an authoritarian child trying to gatekeep what dolls are allowed at a tea party. 

[tidge]

58 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Trying to discredit "the very peculiar reason, un concept" I mentioned regarding the narratives we apply to game characters really shows how myopic you're being. You sound like an authoritarian child trying to gatekeep what dolls are allowed at a tea party. 

 

How is the current game actually preventing you from playing Deity Man? At best, the current game prevents can't street sweeping level 1-15 zones with primary T8s and T9s for XP. Most of the zones can give radio/Newspaper missions in them, at level. Many of the zones have contacts that will auto-exemplar to the highest level of the zone.

 

This ask has no functional difference than the ask to have all the power pool powers unlocked instantly. It isn't my fault or gatekeeping that is making players "bored" with low level content because they don't have "I Win" buttons. The game is configured to have the powers unlock at certain levels, sometimes with prerequisites. It sounds like you want a radically different game. the game is not Level 50+ characters herp-derping their way through level 1-15 zones/content.

 

Frankly: If ->you<- (points at @battlewraith ) are so bored that you must toss out the pre-level 30 content, I question how long before it would be before you get bored with this suggestion, and ask for another radical change to a game design that has worked well for a majority of players for decades.

[battlewraith]

24 minutes ago, tidge said:

Frankly: If ->you<- (points at @battlewraith ) are so bored that you must toss out the pre-level 30 content, I question how long before it would be before you get bored with this suggestion, and ask for another radical change to a game design that has worked well for a majority of players for decades.

 

And this is a generic response that can be leveled at more or less any suggestion that has scope (not just QOL or a cosmetic change). 

You want a new content >> how long is it going to be before you're bored with that content.

 

A suggestion that is intended to make the low level content more interesting, is not trying to toss that content out. That would only be the case If I accepted your Chicken Little sky is falling mentality that it would somehow destroy the traditional level experience for everyone. It would not. You would not be required to engage with it in any way. And the strident objection to it on this front is indicative of an undercurrent of fear--that this option actually would be really popular with a lot of people to the extent that it would become impactful to crusty old timers. Don't see that happening.

 

 

[tidge]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

You sound like an authoritarian child trying to gatekeep what dolls are allowed at a tea party. 

 

7 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

That would only be the case If I accepted your Chicken Little sky is falling mentality that it would somehow destroy the traditional level experience for everyone.

 

There seems to be a peculiar reliance on rather childish "go-to" metaphors that perhaps belies the level of critical thinking in the original idea. This isn't a tea party, this is a well-established MMORPG that has a pretty clear connection between character powers/impact and content... by level. If there is a perception that someone has reacted like "the sky is falling", perhaps it is because someone is inviting an asteroid strike onto a well-established ecosystem.

 

If there is some sort of sub-20 content that you stridently feel demands players have access to nukes,a player has the personal freedom to try to alleviate whatever suspected boredom might exist because players lack T9 primary powers below level 20 by constructing similar missions in AE using Skulls, Hellions, Snakes, whatever... and then just playing that content. If *this* is too much effort for a true believer in the "gotta have a nuke to get (rewards from) those Hellions" cause., even as a proof-of-concept... it is probably too much of an ask for the dev team to implement and a large majority of players to get behind.

[battlewraith]

1 minute ago, tidge said:

There seems to be a peculiar reliance on rather childish "go-to" metaphors that perhaps belies the level of critical thinking in the original idea.

 

LMAO. Pot meet kettle? Everything seems to be an "I win" button to you. The orthodoxy has to be preserved because at it's core, it seems like you will feel like you've been cheated if someone else does something different from what you're grow accustomed to.

 

If you think this is an asteroid strike onto a well-established ecosystem, you need to explain that. Pouting about one specific use (eg. nukes on lowbie) and elaborating why you don't get the appeal doesn't establish the supposed threat. Moreover, the notion that this suggestion poses that kind of a threat entails the assumption that a substantial number of people would be interested in it. 

[Excraft]

48 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

You want a new content >> how long is it going to be before you're bored with that content.

 

This is an extremely simple question to answer.  

 

City of Heroes was launched 21 years ago come this April.  After 21 years (and counting), it still has a loyal following and manages to attract new players.  Even after 21 years, there are a lot of people still here, still finding something they enjoy to keep them playing.  

 

So the extremely simple answer to your question is "a very long time."  Far, far longer than I suspect the utterly trivial amount of time it would take before you became bored with running low level content in "saga mode".

 

50 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

A suggestion that is intended to make the low level content more interesting, is not trying to toss that content out.

 

It's not making the content more interesting though.  It's shuffling the order of what level you can take a power.

 

You ignored these questions, so I'll ask them again.

1. Where is the incentive to actually play the content using saga mode in lieu of just PLing a saga mode alt in AE to finish the build first?  Or running DFB, DiB to skip the first 20 or so levels?
2. Where and what is the actual tangible reward for doing playing saga mode?
3. What are some "new and exotic builds" that can be made in saga mode that can't already be made?
4. What's the incentive to continue playing saga mode when you're limited to SOs and will always be outclassed and outperformed by others who are able to take full advantage of the invention system?

 

[Excraft]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

Frankly: If ->you<- (points at @battlewraith ) are so bored that you must toss out the pre-level 30 content, I question how long before it would be before you get bored with this suggestion, and ask for another radical change to a game design that has worked well for a majority of players for decades.

 

Given that they've said the very first thing they did when the joined HC was to PL in AE, I imagine the "fun factor" for having a nuke at level 2 would wear off within a few minutes. 

[tidge]

28 minutes ago, Excraft said:

What are some "new and exotic builds" that can be made in saga mode that can't already be made?

 

Bluntly: it sounds to me like the "I canna control my explosive nature" pretty much sounds like an Energy Blast Primary (or Secondary) with Knockback Enhancements. There is zero reason to have to wait for Nova in order to demonstrate 'poor control' in game.

[battlewraith]

4 minutes ago, Excraft said:

This is an extremely simple question to answer.

 

It's particularly easy if you're going to make a set of simplistic and unwarranted assumptions.

If the idea is that the standard level progression is the thing that is keeping this playerbase here, simply do this thought experiment:

 

Imagine that the PL options are gone. This lovely experience of working your way up with the measured progression is mandatory.

I don't think it's controversial to expect a huge chunk of the population to move on. The reason the playerbase is still what it is now, has to do with easing away from that mentality.

 

15 minutes ago, Excraft said:

You ignored these questions, so I'll ask them again.

 

Because they've already been answered or you could figure it out yourself if you actually committed any brainpower to this.

 

1. Variety. To make the content that you normally skip over interesting. You want a break from pling. You're sick of dfbs. You want to try using using  powers that you usually skip because the are subotimal or undesirable in light of how you usually plan things. This is largely a subjective issue.

 

2. What is the actual tangible benefit for playing chess. Or throwing a frisbee. Figure it out.

 

3. You could answer this yourself by looking at the options in the character creation screen. The fact that different options would be made available at different levels is fact. Whether or not you find this appealing is subjective. I'm not going to try to sell you on it any more than pushing you to badge, pvp, collect prismatic aethers, whatever.

 

4. You don't care what other people are doing. You don't have to min/max all the time. You want some kind of challenge. A break from the norm. Variety is the spice of life.

It's funny how min/maxer people sometimes get on these forums when they encounter an idea they don't like.

In my experience ingame (in pve at least) people are pretty cool and laid back. They don't build shame you or anything unless there's a real chance of failing the mission, which is not that common.

 

I hope that answers your questions.

 

[battlewraith]

3 minutes ago, tidge said:

Bluntly: it sounds to me like the "I canna control my explosive nature" pretty much sounds like an Energy Blast Primary (or Secondary) with Knockback Enhancements. There is zero reason to have to wait for Nova in order to demonstrate 'poor control' in game.

 

You're nitpicking the crap out of an example. I don't care what it sounds like to you. 

You're justification for ruling out a change in progression order is backed up by you then dictating how other people should conceptually view those picks.

You do you. Leave other people alone.

[battlewraith]

35 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

Given that they've said the very first thing they did when the joined HC was to PL in AE, I imagine the "fun factor" for having a nuke at level 2 would wear off within a few minutes. 

 

Nukes aren't really what I had in mind for this idea personally, but you keep dancing with your strawmen.

[Stormwalker]

56 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

Bluntly: it sounds to me like the "I canna control my explosive nature" pretty much sounds like an Energy Blast Primary (or Secondary) with Knockback Enhancements. There is zero reason to have to wait for Nova in order to demonstrate 'poor control' in game.

 

Heck, my entire concept for why my Energy blaster was limited to weak blasts at low level was that her control was not fully developed and she had to hold back a TON because she was afraid she'd accidentally hit someone too hard and kill them, so she had to err on the side of caution.

 

As she gained experience her control and confidence IN that control improved, so she could hold back less, thus stronger blasts.  Much like Superman, she is never NOT holding back, though.

[Excraft]

33 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Imagine that the PL options are gone. This lovely experience of working your way up with the measured progression is mandatory.

I don't think it's controversial to expect a huge chunk of the population to move on. The reason the playerbase is still what it is now, has to do with easing away from that mentality.

 

I don't need to imagine the PL options being gone.  It already exists.  

 

Anyone can log into Brainstorm server here and roll up as many level 50s as they want with all of the enhancements, badges and inf that they want in a couple of minutes with no restrictions.  There are other servers out there that allow you to create a level 50 with all badges, accolades, enhancements and billions of inf right from the start.  There's no population there.  That's an abundantly clear indication most people don't want an "I win" button.  If it were, Brainstorm would be heavily populated and there would be more and more people migrating to other servers.  As I pointed out earlier in the thread, and there are many HC posts about this over the years that confirm this is their philosophy as well, people fundamentally want to feel like they've earned something.  Given the population here, that experience and feeling like you've earned something is what most people are getting from playing here.  That's why they're here and not elsewhere.

A great thing about HC is there are options for all kinds of people to play how they like.  Don't like the low level content?  Don't do it.  Hit the S.T.A.R.T. vendor, grab your double XP boosters and DFB/DiB/SBB your way into the 30s, or PL yourself in AE all the way to 50.  Want to play through every single story arc the game has to offer?  Go for it.  There's something here for everyone.

 

44 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

1. Variety. To make the content that you normally skip over interesting. You want a break from pling. You're sick of dfbs. You want to try using using  powers that you usually skip because the are subotimal or undesirable in light of how you usually plan things. This is largely a subjective issue.

 

These are you problems.  There is already plenty of variety in terms of power set combinations and builds you can make.  If you're not using powers that you usually skip, then don't skip them.  If you're bored PLing and sick of DFBs, stop doing them.  I don't know how you're planning builds, but for me, I never take anything I don't need.  If you are, then again that's a you problem.  Nothing about saga mode makes lower level content "more interesting" to play.

 

42 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

2. What is the actual tangible benefit for playing chess. Or throwing a frisbee. Figure it out.

 

This is a non-answer.  We're not talking about chess.  We're talking about this game, and like other games, this one offers tangible rewards for running content in the form of XP, inf, merits etc. that are used as currency and to incentivize people to run the content.  What's the tangible reward with saga mode to incentivize actually playing the content? 

 

51 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

3. You could answer this yourself by looking at the options in the character creation screen. The fact that different options would be made available at different levels is fact. Whether or not you find this appealing is subjective. I'm not going to try to sell you on it any more than pushing you to badge, pvp, collect prismatic aethers, whatever.

 

This isn't "new and exotic" builds though, it's just changing the order in which you take your abilities.  You eventually wind up in the same place.  You're still stuck within the parameters of your chosen powersets and power pools.  So you can take higher tier powers first.  So what?  You'll have to take your lower tier powers at later levels, so you essentially wind up in the same place, except in saga mode you're gimped from being saddled with SOs only.

 

54 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

4. You don't care what other people are doing. You don't have to min/max all the time. You want some kind of challenge. A break from the norm. Variety is the spice of life.

It's funny how min/maxer people sometimes get on these forums when they encounter an idea they don't like.

In my experience ingame (in pve at least) people are pretty cool and laid back. They don't build shame you or anything unless there's a real chance of failing the mission, which is not that common.

 

Correct.  You don't need to min/max all the time.  You can choose to make SO only builds right now.  You can choose to play through the story content the old-fashioned way right now.  There are people in a couple of SGs I'm in who have weekly "crawl" teams playing and leveling through running story content.  There's nothing stopping you from doing this too.   

[battlewraith]

28 minutes ago, Excraft said:

I don't need to imagine the PL options being gone.  It already exists. 

 

Woooosh. Another wall of text where you completely and dogmatically miss the point.

 

This is your vision of the game. It's more or less an exposition of how you view things, which you then extend to the playerbase as a whole to try to make it sound more legitimate. 

You talk about people not wanting an I win button and people wanting to feel like they've earned something (hilariously this is in regard to lowbie content which is largely skipped over).

 

For the majority of the lifespan of the game I was a pvper. I just logged in and played the game with my friends. We got jack shit in terms of rewards and those things that were pvp centered are now easily available to people who never need to pvp to get them. The question about chess is absolutely pertinent to this discussion. The reason you play chess is not about the rewards--it's because you enjoy it. Same with pvp. Same with throwing a frisbee.

 

Your value system vis a vis this game is so fixated on grind that you can't see past it. That is your hang up that you're trying to saddle on me. You don't like it, you don't think it adds anything-cool. You've already stated your preference. But your arguments, that you keep rehashing here are silly.

 

"Oh no. This option will make people stronger at the most fleeting of level ranges! And then they will be weaker at later level ranges! And if people actually have fun with this--it could destroy everything that we hold dear!"

Edited March 16 by battlewraith

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

This thread has been circling the drain for a while now.  

 

Time to bury the dead horse.