Melee Classes

[The Witchfire]

MAJOR edit, I had a TLDR ramble of a post about trying to find an ideal build for a character concept, but I suppose it all comes down to one question: how much difference is there between Tanks, Brutes and Scrappers anymore?

 

Posi and Paragon Studios always did a fairly decent job balancing ATs, but Homecoming has taken it to a whole new level. 😀  

 

On a related note, are all the defensive power seta as balanced as they seem?  I remember Invulnerability witb a few choice sets used to be the way to go for a truly indestructible Tank.  All the sets seem fairly equal now with the possible exception of End costs from toggles.

Edited Thursday at 06:39 AM by The Witchfire
Spelling error

[Maelwys]

  

3 hours ago, The Witchfire said:

 one question: how much difference is there between Tanks, Brutes and Scrappers anymore?

In the very early game (->25 ish) Brutes are ahead of the rest. This is because they can get away with largely ignoring slotting their attacks for damage (because their Fury Inherent pulls a lot of weight) so their few enhancement slots can be used to boost Accuracy and Endurance Reduction (and Survivability if needed!) instead.
After that; enhancement slots become a bit more common and Invention origin enhancements (IOs) start showing their worth; so Scrappers and Tankers will start showing the benefit of their higher base damage and larger Defense/Damage Resistance scalars and close in on Brutes.

By the time you reach level 50; Scrappers will be ahead of Brutes on Damage (even at high fury) and Tankers will be ahead of them on survivability (due to their higher HP cap and them having an easier time reaching the defense softcap and resistance hardcaps).



However once you factor in Archetype Origin Enhancements (ATOs) things change drastically.

• The Scrapper ATO sets "special" proc/global enhancements are both extremely good at increasing their damage output. The first boosts their default Critical Hit rate and the second gives them a short period during which their critical hit chance is raised by a flat 50%. So it's possible (with CoDv2, a spreadsheet and a bit of patience) for a Scrapper to get an attack chain in which two or three of their attacks quite often have a critical hit rate of 66-71% instead of the baseline 10-15%.
   
• The Tanker ATO sets "special" proc/global enhancements are rather good at increasing their survivability. The first is a proc which raises their damage resistance to everything by 6.7% and can stack with itself up to three times. The second is a proc which adds a decent chunk of "Absorb" (15% of their Maximum HP - so it's affected by your +MaxHP buffs and accolades!) that lasts for 20 seconds.
   
• The Brute ATO sets "special" proc/global enhancements are complete and utter garbage. The first gives them an extra 7 Fury generation when attacking with one attack (which is pointless since Brutes already generate Fury quickly and anything higher than about 80-90 Fury will drop off fast. Even in AE Farms the highest I sit at is 93 Fury). The second is a proc which grants a slight buff to Endurance reduction and Regeneration which can stack with itself up to 5 times (it caps out at about  +33.25% Endurance Reduction and +100% Regeneration - which is considerably lower return than a single Panacea Proc in Health).

As a result, when min-maxed with both IOs and ATOs Scrappers tend to deal considerably more damage and Tankers have a much easier time reaching survivability thresholds (like the Defense Softcap and Resistance Hardcaps) compared to Brutes.

I did some "Mission Simulator" runs both during and after the recent round of Tanker nerfs in i28p2; which showed that currently a min-maxed Scrapper is about ~30% faster than a min-maxed Brute and ~40% faster then a maxed Tanker when clearing the same "average indoor mission map" solo at +4x8 difficulty. And bear in mind that difficulty setting favours Tankers with their larger AoE radius and Target Caps - they are supposedly intended now to be the "AoE specialist" Melee AT!

 

>>> In practice however these differences don't overly matter in most cases; because City of Heroes/Villains is a very easy game. It's quite possible for even the "squishy" ATs to clear maps solo - survivability really isn't an issue at endgame once you're IO'ed out and have your T4 Incarnate abilities. Most teams will want something that can deal damage and/or something that can hold aggro and not overly care whether you're capable of dealing a bit more/less damage than a different melee AT <<<

 

IMO the real differences in playstyle are:
(i) "Deals decent melee damage and can hold aggro" - Tanker, Brute.
(ii) "Deals higher melee damage and can sometimes hold aggro" - Scrapper (any Scrapper can take Confront to tank AVs, some secondary sets also have a taunt aura)
(iii) "Deals higher melee damage and comes with built-in stealth capability to complete certain missions quickly" - Stalker.

You'll notice that Tankers and Brutes occupy the same niche there - they've been fighting over that very same spot for years (Brutes were better for decades, then Tankers pulled waaay ahead in i26p4; now since i28p2 Brutes are a little bit ahead again).
 

  
Suffice to say that I'm not a fan of this and would much prefer Tankers and Brutes and Scrappers and Stalkers to each have a slightly different niche on teams.

There are some very strong opinions on this whole Brute vs Tanker vs Scrapper vs Stalker performance/balance thing... and since a lot of players aren't min-maxing their characters (particularly Scrapper players; given the complexity of just how their ATO2 proc actually works) different people are observing very different levels of performance disparity. However I think it's fair to say that there is at least a loose consensus that the Brute ATOs are letting the AT down.

 

3 hours ago, The Witchfire said:

On a related note, are all the defensive power seta as balanced as they seem? 

Mostly.

They did a balance pass pretty recently which reworked a lot of the Regeneration powerset (which had a loooong history of being continually nerfed - so much so it became a running joke) and some other sets got tweaked up and down. There are still sets that "stand out" in different ways though...

As an example: Super Reflexes is probably one of the most effective sets once you're fully min-maxed as it can reach the resistance hardcap to everything (via scaling HP-based damage resistances) and cap its defence debuff resistance. Willpower is also very hands-off (no clickies) and easy to use but it has a much lower performance ceiling.

+ Radiation Armor is a Resistance and Absorb based powerset; which has a fair bit of AoE damage (even since the nerfs).
+ Bio Armor is a mixture of all sorts of things; but when min-maxed it can reach the Regeneration and Recovery hard caps (230+ HP/Sec regeneration!).
+ There's a new powerset called Psionic Armor which can let you do some very interesting things.
+ Stone Armor is almost always better off now not running in Granite Armor (Minerals and Brimstone Armor in particular have very beneficial effects!)
But the other powersets are all pretty solid too; INV in particular has a reputation for being very reliable when IO'ed out (75%+ Res to all including Psi is quite possible!).
 

Edited Thursday at 10:35 AM by Maelwys

[Snarky]

it definitely depends on 1) goal - role 2) archetype - power sets 3) build  

 

there is a large difference.  a sweeping generalized conversation is not going to help you hit a specific target.  

 

My being "done" with them is due to Brutes unfair treatment from every Dev that "adjusted" them.  I do not wish to rehash it all, but Brutes getting nerfed because in edge cases they were out damaging Scrappers was stupid. Then to have Tanks buffed to out damage everyone was really a HC FU. Having the worst Archetype Enhancers in the game is just getting a golf club to the back of the head after you fall down.  All Devs hate Brutes and will F them over as soon as they can get their hands into the code.  Do not know why.  Every time i build out a Brute i despise Devs more. Because i know they have been screwed so hard, and any way to optimize them has been carefully and methodically removed.  After Tanks got buffed I quit playing them, because they were a shit choice.  Just because HC rolled back SOME of the Tank buffs will not trick me.  The HC Devs are probably already planning another way to screw Brutes.  i am slowly stripping my 50 Brutes and compacting them to back page name holders.  Dead to me.

[The Witchfire]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

it definitely depends on 1) goal - role 2) archetype - power sets 3) build  

 

there is a large difference.  a sweeping generalized conversation is not going to help you hit a specific target.  

 

My being "done" with them is due to Brutes unfair treatment from every Dev that "adjusted" them.  I do not wish to rehash it all, but Brutes getting nerfed because in edge cases they were out damaging Scrappers was stupid. Then to have Tanks buffed to out damage everyone was really a HC FU. Having the worst Archetype Enhancers in the game is just getting a golf club to the back of the head after you fall down.  All Devs hate Brutes and will F them over as soon as they can get their hands into the code.  Do not know why.  Every time i build out a Brute i despise Devs more. Because i know they have been screwed so hard, and any way to optimize them has been carefully and methodically removed.  After Tanks got buffed I quit playing them, because they were a shit choice.  Just because HC rolled back SOME of the Tank buffs will not trick me.  The HC Devs are probably already planning another way to screw Brutes.  i am slowly stripping my 50 Brutes and compacting them to back page name holders.  Dead to me.

 

Yeah, that's rough.  Reminds me of the old days and Positron's mad hate for the Radiation powers set. 

[The Witchfire]

2 hours ago, Maelwys said:

  

In the very early game (->25 ish) Brutes are ahead of the rest. This is because they can get away with largely ignoring slotting their attacks for damage (because their Fury Inherent pulls a lot of weight) so their few enhancement slots can be used to boost Accuracy and Endurance Reduction (and Survivability if needed!) instead.
After that; enhancement slots become a bit more common and Invention origin enhancements (IOs) start showing their worth; so Scrappers and Tankers will start showing the benefit of their higher base damage and larger Defense/Damage Resistance scalars and close in on Brutes.

By the time you reach level 50; Scrappers will be ahead of Brutes on Damage (even at high fury) and Tankers will be ahead of them on survivability (due to their higher HP cap and them having an easier time reaching the defense softcap and resistance hardcaps).



However once you factor in Archetype Origin Enhancements (ATOs) things change drastically.

• The Scrapper ATO sets "special" proc/global enhancements are both extremely good at increasing their damage output. The first boosts their default Critical Hit rate and the second gives them a short period during which their critical hit chance is raised by a flat 50%. So it's possible (with CoDv2, a spreadsheet and a bit of patience) for a Scrapper to get an attack chain in which two or three of their attacks quite often have a critical hit rate of 66-71% instead of the baseline 10-15%.
   
• The Tanker ATO sets "special" proc/global enhancements are rather good at increasing their survivability. The first is a proc which raises their damage resistance to everything by 6.7% and can stack with itself up to three times. The second is a proc which adds a decent chunk of "Absorb" (15% of their Maximum HP - so it's affected by your +MaxHP buffs and accolades!) that lasts for 20 seconds.
   
• The Brute ATO sets "special" proc/global enhancements are complete and utter garbage. The first gives them an extra 7 Fury generation when attacking with one attack (which is pointless since Brutes already generate Fury quickly and anything higher than about 80-90 Fury will drop off fast. Even in AE Farms the highest I sit at is 93 Fury). The second is a proc which grants a slight buff to Endurance reduction and Regeneration which can stack with itself up to 5 times (it caps out at about  +33.25% Endurance Reduction and +100% Regeneration - which is considerably lower return than a single Panacea Proc in Health).

As a result, when min-maxed with both IOs and ATOs Scrappers tend to deal considerably more damage and Tankers have a much easier time reaching survivability thresholds (like the Defense Softcap and Resistance Hardcaps) compared to Brutes.

I did some "Mission Simulator" runs both during and after the recent round of Tanker nerfs in i28p2; which showed that currently a min-maxed Scrapper is about ~30% faster than a min-maxed Brute and ~40% faster then a maxed Tanker when clearing the same "average indoor mission map" solo at +4x8 difficulty. And bear in mind that difficulty setting favours Tankers with their larger AoE radius and Target Caps - they are supposedly intended now to be the "AoE specialist" Melee AT!

 

>>> In practice however these differences don't overly matter in most cases; because City of Heroes/Villains is a very easy game. It's quite possible for even the "squishy" ATs to clear maps solo - survivability really isn't an issue at endgame once you're IO'ed out and have your T4 Incarnate abilities. Most teams will want something that can deal damage and/or something that can hold aggro and not overly care whether you're capable of dealing a bit more/less damage than a different melee AT <<<

 

IMO the real differences in playstyle are:
(i) "Deals decent melee damage and can hold aggro" - Tanker, Brute.
(ii) "Deals higher melee damage and can sometimes hold aggro" - Scrapper (any Scrapper can take Confront to tank AVs, some secondary sets also have a taunt aura)
(iii) "Deals higher melee damage and comes with built-in stealth capability to complete certain missions quickly" - Stalker.

You'll notice that Tankers and Brutes occupy the same niche there - they've been fighting over that very same spot for years (Brutes were better for decades, then Tankers pulled waaay ahead in i26p4; now since i28p2 Brutes are a little bit ahead again).
 

  
Suffice to say that I'm not a fan of this and would much prefer Tankers and Brutes and Scrappers and Stalkers to each have a slightly different niche on teams.

There are some very strong opinions on this whole Brute vs Tanker vs Scrapper vs Stalker performance/balance thing... and since a lot of players aren't min-maxing their characters (particularly Scrapper players; given the complexity of just how their ATO2 proc actually works) different people are observing very different levels of performance disparity. However I think it's fair to say that there is at least a loose consensus that the Brute ATOs are letting the AT down.

 

Mostly.

They did a balance pass pretty recently which reworked a lot of the Regeneration powerset (which had a loooong history of being continually nerfed - so much so it became a running joke) and some other sets got tweaked up and down. There are still sets that "stand out" in different ways though...

As an example: Super Reflexes is probably one of the most effective sets once you're fully min-maxed as it can reach the resistance hardcap to everything (via scaling HP-based damage resistances) and cap its defence debuff resistance. Willpower is also very hands-off (no clickies) and easy to use but it has a much lower performance ceiling.

+ Radiation Armor is a Resistance and Absorb based powerset; which has a fair bit of AoE damage (even since the nerfs).
+ Bio Armor is a mixture of all sorts of things; but when min-maxed it can reach the Regeneration and Recovery hard caps (230+ HP/Sec regeneration!).
+ There's a new powerset called Psionic Armor which can let you do some very interesting things.
+ Stone Armor is almost always better off now not running in Granite Armor (Minerals and Brimstone Armor in particular have very beneficial effects!)
But the other powersets are all pretty solid too; INV in particular has a reputation for being very reliable when IO'ed out (75%+ Res to all including Psi is quite possible!).
 

 

A ton of fabulous information there.  Thanks. 🙂   And yes, I agree that each AT should have a slightly more defined role on a team. 

[Uun]

Without going too deep into the weeds, defense-based armor sets (Energy, Ice, Ninjitsu, Shield, Stone, Super Reflexes) generally perform equally well on all ATs as there's no difference in defense caps, while resist-based armor sets (Dark, Electric, Fire, Psionic, Radiation) perform better on tanks and brutes than they do on scrappers and stalkers due to the difference in resist caps (90% vs. 75%). Bio, Invulnerability and Willpower are hybrid sets with a mix of resists, defense and regen but also perform better on tanks and brutes.

 

Another consideration is whether you want a taunt aura. All tanks and brutes have taunt auras, but only Bio, Energy, Invulnerability, Radiation, Shield and Willpower scrappers have one. Do you want a damage aura? Only Bio, Dark, Electric, Fire, Ice and Stone have one.