Ston

So decided to start some tests for Brute vs Tanker ST DPS with Broadsword. Will post side-by-side screenshots of the builds. Went with the typical loadout for my Brute & Tanker Builds (Vigor & 5 procs vs Musc & 4 procs). The Brute has one less proc in Gloom in order to get HP bonus from Apocalypse. I think Broadsword was a good set to start with since it doesn't benefit either AT different than the other (unlike SS, Claws, DB..). It has a pretty standard set of attacks. Used the same attack chain for both ATs [Gloom > Hack > Disembowel > Head Splitter]. Tanker: [2:49, 3:04, 3:05] Average = 2:59 = 342DPS Brute: [2:42, 2:47, 2:50] Average = 2:45 = 360DPS I imagine this would translate pretty consistently across the other sets. While it's good that Brutes do more ST damage, I'm concerned about the margin and that Tankers can possibly get ANY Pylon times faster than Brutes.

I know a Tanker won’t be getting near Scrapper Pylon times. Scrappers will do way more sustained DPS because of Crit Strikes. I’ve done one Tanker vs Brute Pylon test and got these results back when page 5 came out: ”was just testing and got a faster pylon time on my bio/axe tank than my axe/bio brute too... was only 2:05 vs 2:12 though so at least it's a little closer there” I could’ve built/played the Brute wrong though. I’ll try to get more Pylon data for this throughout the week to see how they compare when using WP instead of Bio. But they should be using as many procs as they can to pump out the most damage their AT will allow.

Thanks Flea! I didn’t have Mids updated at the time so I used those as placeholders for either Touch of Lady Grey or Achilles procs! Also the Overwhelming Force in Cremate were replaced by Explosive Strike and Force Feedback procs 😁

All the builds are posted in the linked spreadsheet in the OP. But you can get plenty of bonuses form LoTGs and slotting full sets in non-attack-chain powers. For example I often put 5pc purple sets in Boxing and Brawl. The 80% is without hasten/ageless

Yes. They use hasten and ageless to solve any endurance/recharge issues. I can also usually got 70-80% global recharge set bonuses

You can only slot so much damage. 2 lvl 53 acc/dam HOs on scrappers & tanks puts you near ED cap. So you wanna get extra proc damage from the remaining slots. Thats the general slotting you see for minmax scrapper/blaster/tanker builds. Brutes usually trade an acc/dam for an extra proc

Do you have numbers to support this? I’ve done Pylon tests and Tankers can beat Brutes. I’ve also recorded the time it takes to kill Trapdoor and the Tankers usually kill him faster too. The build up procs really let Tanks catch up in ST dps.

Musculature really doesn't help Brutes. I gave them Vigor for acc/end/healing and trade an acc/dam HO for an additional damage proc in all their attacks. For example, take a lvl 50 Energy Melee Brute (Energy Punch): Base damage = 48.38 85% Fury = 130.6 Musculature Core Paragon + (lvl 53 Acc/Dam HO x 2) + 4 procs = 308.3 Vigor Core Paragon + (lvl 53 Acc/Dam HO x 1) + 5 procs = 293.6 So it usually makes sense to trade the marginal damage for more accuracy and endurance since Brutes need less damage slotting than a Tanker. You usually won't be able to get enough accuracy with Musculature without sacrificing a damage proc. Also, it's fair to have Scrappers chase enemies occsionally. They don't have punchvoke like Brutes/Tankers. And yes, damage procs were always used unless FF, -Resistance, or Chance for BU were available. And prioritized procs that are less likely to be resisted.

I think builds with procs are the best to use for benchmarks right now. Especially to have metrics to compare when/of proc changes come. Wish i had time to do the test again with limited procs. I’ve done a few comparisons with proc limitations on claws & axe and the results were similar. The Tanker still cleared faster than the Brute but the gap was slightly smaller. I don’t think any set benefits from PPM drastically more than others. If a set has lower PPM, it just means it can use attacks more often.

I’ve been wanting to find a test to measure this kind of thing. Unfortunately it doesn’t look like there’s missions with a bunch of EBs/AVs on a small map that’s easily repeatable. I’ll start looking into an AE solution! I thought about Pylons but I don’t think they’re a good measure for how fast a set can kill a boss/EB/AV. Something like energy melee would suffer in sustained DPS even thought it can 2 shot a boss. So gonna try to think something up for it!

I’ve done tests where only one IO set is allowed per power. The tanker will still clear faster than a brute because of AoE radius and target caps. I’m not sure what “proc monkey” means.. but slotting just enough accuracy/damage and filling the rest with procs is the meta, so it should be used for testing. One of my goals is to have this as a benchmark to use against any potential proc changes. I think another important point to mention is now that hardmode exists, Tankers have a legit role in something.

I think it’s pretty under appreciated! Freezing Touch is one of the best ST attacks IMO, perfect for Crit Strikes. Frost and Frozen Aura can put out a lot of cold damage in a wide area, which isn’t commonly resisted. And then Ice Patch will keep enemies in place to make sure they’re all getting hit with AoE damage. Frost is even good for ST damage 😁

While also being the sturdiest… Didn’t need inspirations on any Tanker runs. The Brutes needed a few small oranges or greens most of their runs. And the Scrappers pretty much needed to constantly have a large orange active. Tankers do WAY too much damage for their survivability. Would’ve had to sacrifice a good amount of damage on the other ATs to make them sturdier.

Combustion. Seriously, FSC + Combustion absolutely melts stuff on Tankers. I'm sure it would be #1 on Brutes and Scrappers if they had it too. Gloom/GFS/FS is a very decent ST chain too.

AoE is important for this test but I think ST has a role too. You need a decent ST chain to kill enemies with resistance like Warwolves and Mu Mystics (and Trapdoor, of course). I think this is why Spines doesn’t rank higher. I don’t think the TP helps as much as the increased radius on Rending Flurry does. I usually use the TP attack in the middle of a group anyway. But yeah I think MA is deceptively good for AoE. It only has one AoE but it animates fast and almost always procs FF, so you can use it over and over. IMO it’s a better version of Foot Stomp. Energy Melee is hard to measure the value of. It’s by far the best set for killing bosses on teams. But it has mid-tier sustained DPS and bad AoE. So it suffers in solo x8 environments. I would treat it the same way I treat stalkers: only use it to kill bosses on teams. It’s just not going to win any trapdoor or pylon races.

Savage has very efficient AoEs. It’s probably the best AoE set on average and can but together a ST chain good enough to kill bosses. I found Psi Melee to be very frustrating. Mass Levitate can throw mobs to inconvenient spots. So you spend more time positioning your follow up attacks. It has very good ST attacks though.. just kind of fights against itself. Insight is also a very controversial.

Lately I've been curious about how melee sets compare to each other across all ATs (except stalker, for now). I've been doing a lot of Trapdoor testing the past 2 years on Homecoming and decided to use it as a benchmark for this test (lots of runs posted on my Youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkPFdm3IxdIW6PdxApy55ng). After some discussion with Galaxy Brain, I decided to use Willpower for this test as it is the set that has the least impact on your damage output. The parameters for this test are as follows: - "Track Down Trapdoor" mission set at +4/x8 - Best two times recorded for each build (using the top two times and throwing out the others to account for getting better with the powerset with more practice) - Inspirations allowed: Oranges, Blues, Greens (Choosing to ignore survivability and just test the damage output from melee sets. Using these inspirations will keep me alive but still allow me to be debuffed, unlike purple inspirations) - Standard build: - Identical choices & slotting for all Willpower and pool powers - 90% recharge resistances on all builds - Same Incarnate powers: - Tankers/Scrappers: Musc Radial, Reactive Radial, Ageless Core, Assault (Passive) - Brutes: Vigor Core, Reactive Radial, Ageless Core, Assault (Passive) (Brutes benefit more from endurance/accuracy enhancements) Results: Melee_Test.xlsx ***Disclaimers*** - I don't claim these are the best way to build these combos. My goal for this test was to get a baseline for performance across melee ATs using my personal playstyle. Open to any suggestions or feedback on how to improve these results! - Some builds may not be correct, please send me a message and I will fix them. ***Note*** - Willpower has the weakest taunt aura of any Scrapper set. This will cause Scrapper times to be lower than Bio/Rad/Shield relative to their Tanker/Brute counterparts. I think this is a good thing since not all Scrapper secondaries get a taunt aura. Willpower ends up being a nice benchmark between taunt aura and no taunt aura. Discord: @Ston#0707

For my fire/bio, I put CS in Cremate and had 4 procs in all the ST attacks. The PPM there is about 50%, not the worst. It's more reliable in GFS but you probably have a higher DPS ceiling when putting it in Cremate. Was able to get 48s with Assault Radial active. The damage gets pretty nuts when you have good RNG between CS in Cremate, FF in Cremate, and BU proc in Moonbeam.

Put together this map to help anyone who wants to run this test. It can be useful for planning when to use certain powers and knowing which enemies to prioritize. /macro find "target_custom_next enemy alive archon$$target_custom_next enemy alive eclipse warwolf$$target_custom_next enemy alive night widow$$target_custom_next enemy alive tarantula mistress" I usually use this macro before running into a group of enemies to check if there's any that I need to focus. This can really help with avoiding cascading debuffs or to focus damage on bosses. After putting this map together, I think it helps me get an idea of how this test can be improved. I'm planning on creating a few AE missions to simulate different environments. Open to any feedback and what you guys think would be useful in testing!

Bunch of melee runs I've done lately: Spines/Bio/Mu Scrapper @ 3:34 Bio/Claws/Soul Tanker @ 3:33 Elec/Elec/Mu Tanker @ 4:20 Ice/Staff/Soul Tanker @ 4:43 Energy/Shield/Soul Tanker @ 3:54

It was probably because I used the same slotting for the Brute and Tank. The Brute probably needed more S/L resistance and maybe start off Parasitic Aura. I’ll run some tests later and post results in the Pylon thread.

Sentinels with Rad Armor... More & more impressed with what they can do the more I test them 👀 To be fair, Ground Zero has no business doing what it does. But it looks like Sents can put out some decent damage! Not quite enough to prevent runners like Blasters can though... And it seems like they're only off my a slight margin. SO MANY times I've had minions and lieutenants running away at <10% HP. I did have to use survival amplifiers too because I kept detoggling from end dropping 😞 Fire/Rad @ 4:36 Elec/Rad @ 4:54 Bonus Test: Stone/Bio Scrapper @ 3:50 Probably not going to be uploading any more Bio Armor runs as they're all looking about the same.. But I haven't seen any runs with Stone Melee yet! Gave it a try and was super impressed right off the top. It's only just behind Battle Axe now as my best average between trapdoor and pylon tests. Who needs achilles anyway!

I got bored of the leveling experience and play almost exclusively on beta now to benchmark and test builds. I usually build 2-3 characters per session. That’s probably over 275+ IOs and HOs between those characters. I stopped playing on live because I got bored of farming and playing content before lvl 50. Now I just get on live to join TFs with friends or PVP. However, the ONLY way I’d be able to make even one new build a day on live would be to either AE farm 1-50 and use the drops/inf OR level the normal way and use all the merits from arcs/TFs Either way I would be putting lots of IOs back into the market. I can only imagine the AH crisis if everyone was starting at 50, like others have explained. I think this would be horrible for the game. Like… complete ruin it. I also suspect it would change the culture of the game and make the community less fun.

Yeah.. The ceiling for Tanker performance feels so much higher than Brutes. Tankers are already near unkillable out-of-the-box, and now they can achieve insane damage on top of that. I often see this conversation resolved by "Brutes have better ST damage, Tankers have better AoE damage", but I'm skeptical of whether or not that is valid. When doing the Trapdoor tests, my Tanker was able to kill the Elite Boss a few seconds faster on average than the Brute. Adrenal Booster and Build Up procs made the Tanker melt things while it really didn't make any difference for the Brute. In all my testing, the Brute versions of my builds were much harder to keep alive while struggling to compete with the clear speed of the Tanker. I did some Pylon testing too.. What I found was that the Tanker could kill the Pylon slightly faster than the Brute with a proc-heavy build but they were pretty neck-and-neck. When I switched to the builds without heavy proc usage (only 1 IO set allowed per attack), the Brute was consistently beating the Tanker by about 30 seconds (3m30s vs 3m averages). Here's the kicker: The Brute needed a Defensive Amplifier and some purple/green inspirations to kill the Pylon without dying. The Tanker didn't need any outside buffs. All test results were pretty similar when using Fiery Aura, Bio Armor, Dark Armor, Savage Melee, Fiery Melee, and Battle Axe.

Did a couple runs with something that isn't Bio or Rad Armor.. I'm very impressed by Dark Armor's offensive output. If it weren't for the ridiculous endurance costs and accuracy penalties, I would say it competes with Rad Armor. It is definitely very tanky, doesn't need much help there! But would love to see an endurance adjustment and maybe some tohit resistance in Cloak of Fear. Savage/Dark Brute @ 4:30 Dark/Fire Tank @ 4:01 (I did need to pop a super blue during the trapdoor fight..)