Ston

To expand on my last reply... Here's how Claws compares on Tankers vs Brutes with about as much damage bonus as you can give yourself without outside buffs or long recharge powers (e.g. Adrenal Booster, Call To Justice). Power: Focus Active Effects: - Hybrid Assault Radial (Passive) - Follow Up (2 Stacks) - Assault (Leadership) - Gaussian's Build Up Proc - Decimation Build Up Proc - 4% Damage Bonus (Set Bonus) This happens more often than you would think. Especially on sets with Build Up where you can control getting 2 stacks of Build Up. Pretty often I'll use Build Up before running into a group of enemies and then immediately get another Build Up proc from Gloom.

Brutes don't benefit from Musculature as much as Tankers/Scrappers. Using Broadsword's Disembowel as an example: Base = 81.75dmg + 85% Fury = 220.7dmg + 85% Fury + T4 Musculature Radial + (2 * lvl 53 Acc/Dam HO) + 4 Damage Procs (3.5PPM) = 506.4dmg (average) 595.9dmg (max) + 85% Fury + T4 Vigor Core + (1 * lvl 53 Acc/Dam HO) + 5 Damage Procs (3.5PPM) = 499dmg (average) 610.8dmg (max) *Using latest Mids values, so these could be wrong. **Decided to create my own spreadsheet to calculate average damage using damage bonus, damage enhancement, and procs/ppm. I ended up getting the same value, so Mids should be correct here. So the damage ends up being almost the same for each slotting strategy. I chose Vigor for the Brute because I think the buffs (acc/heal/end) ends up helping them more than Musculature. They'd only be doing marginally more damage with Musculature and would have to sacrifice some Heal/Regen which they desperately need to survive encounters that wouldn't even make a Tanker flinch.

1 & 2) FS: Lady Grey FSC: Lady Grey & Achilles GFS: Achilles (I only use one Achilles in ST chain, would rather get more proc damage) 3 & 4) I’d have to run the numbers for DPS, not sure how Incinerate performs. But I didn’t end up using it at all during testing. Just used it to mule an ATO or Purple set. The Tank builds didn’t end up needing the +res proc.. but yeah i would put it in there if I were using it. I think the issue with Incinerate is that it won’t always do it’s full damage. So it’s better to just use Gloom>GFS>FS. Not sure what recharge is needed to maintain that, but on long fights i’ll fill that chain with Dark Oblit. In a real build, I’d switch Incinerate with Cross Punch, but couldn’t with the parameters of this test. If this were a hardmode build and I needed to do some heavier tanking, I’d probably just 4-6 slot GFS with the tanker ATO

Yeah like Black_Assassin said, it’s been done by a couple Crabberminds. I also know it’s been done by a couple Illusion controllers. I believe Ill/Cold and Ill/Therm. Im not sure a Scrapper would be able to accomplish it due to their dependence on Hybrid and Ageless for top DPS chains, but would be a fun challenge!

Testing brute vs tanker.. This is generally how it goes when solo'ing +4/x8. Using identical builds. SOs/HOs only (besides KB>KD in Shockwave). T4 Musculature Core & T4 Ageless Core. The Brute does do better against +2... But things shift pretty quickly when there's more incoming damage.

Storm Kick, Eagle's Claw, and Dragon's Tail are some of the best melee powers in the game. They can push some really good performance on each AT. Fast animations are a big part of it. But they also give special mechanics to each AT. Scrappers: Eagle's Claw gives a +33% crit bonus for a short time to all MA powers Tankers/Brutes: Storm Kick gives +5% defense to all for a short time

Fair. Checked in game and Brute was 310dmg (around 85% Fury), Tanker was 274dmg. Brute was 285dmg around 50% Fury. My fault, looks like the math doesn't add up correctly in Mids. Looks like Brute is doing about 13% more damage with that setup, assuming you have near full Fury. Added T4 Musculature Core just to see how that changes: 340.5dmg for Tanker 381.5dmg for Brute EDIT: More testing... Tanker/Broadsword/Hack (2 lvl 53 Acc/Dam HOs) Base + T4 Musc Core = 151.9dmg Base + T4 Musc Core + Build Up = 207.4dmg Base + T4 Musc Core + Build Up + Gauss Build Up Proc = 268.8dmg Brute/Broadsword/Hack (2 lvl 53 Acc/Dam HOs) Base + T4 Musc Core + 80% Fury = 189.1dmg Base + T4 Musc Core + 80% Fury + Build Up = 233.1dmg Base + T4 Musc Core + 80% Fury + Build Up + Gauss Build Up Proc = 281.5dmg It does look like the build up procs really start to close the gap. You go from about a 13% difference between base damage (+ Fury) to <5%

This is how I got that. I'm on an older version of mids though. Not sure if anything changed. Brute has Fury set to 85% and both have 2 stacks of Follow Up.

The problem persists even without procs though.. Take claws: Tanker: Spin (Base) 126.5 + Follow Up (2 stacks) + Assault (Leadership) 234.7 + Follow Up (2 stacks) + Assault (Leadership) + 2 Damage IOs 340.1 Brute: Spin (Base) 78.83 + 85% Fury + Follow Up (2 stacks) + Assault (Leadership) 268.4 + 85% Fury + Follow Up (2 stacks) + Assault (Leadership) + 2 Damage IOs 334.1 It's not very hard for the Tanker to catch up to Brute damage. It's easier for Claws.. But any set with Build Up will be able to do it in burst damage. Which really is what most engagements come down to.

The gap might by wider for damage with just SOs.. But I’d be concerned about what the Brute would be able to survive. This would also remove ATOs from any testing… which are pretty key in AT balance right now. If i were to build the Brute with an actual sturdy build, they would definitely have less DPS than a Tanker.

Agility will lower proc rates which will result in lower average DPS. Will make the tests rely on even more RNG. I didn’t need the extra recharge anyway since the broadsword chain didn’t have gaps. Brutes barely benefit from using Musculature unlike a Tanker. You might gain like 10dmg on top of base+fury+procs. You can do more damage by using Vigor for accuracy and using an extra proc. My test already shows Brutes kill a pylon faster on average? So idk why you think I want to give bad results for them. I’m just trying to show the margin is too small for the amount of survivability Tankers have.

I’ll leave that to you. Brutes will do more ST DPS on just SOs. On my axe pylon test, the Brute averaged 30s faster than the Tanker when powers were restricted to having a max of 1 proc. (Tanker was still faster on trapdoor with those restrictions). But IOs, procs & incarnates are pretty standard to see for lvl 50 builds. I’m more interested in testing what they’re capable of when taking advantage of anything that boosts their stats, which is why I don’t use Lore or Judgement.

On a Pylon test Fury is usually around 80%. I set it to 85% in Mids. And no reason in particular. Might do more sets as I get time.

So decided to start some tests for Brute vs Tanker ST DPS with Broadsword. Will post side-by-side screenshots of the builds. Went with the typical loadout for my Brute & Tanker Builds (Vigor & 5 procs vs Musc & 4 procs). The Brute has one less proc in Gloom in order to get HP bonus from Apocalypse. I think Broadsword was a good set to start with since it doesn't benefit either AT different than the other (unlike SS, Claws, DB..). It has a pretty standard set of attacks. Used the same attack chain for both ATs [Gloom > Hack > Disembowel > Head Splitter]. Tanker: [2:49, 3:04, 3:05] Average = 2:59 = 342DPS Brute: [2:42, 2:47, 2:50] Average = 2:45 = 360DPS I imagine this would translate pretty consistently across the other sets. While it's good that Brutes do more ST damage, I'm concerned about the margin and that Tankers can possibly get ANY Pylon times faster than Brutes.

I know a Tanker won’t be getting near Scrapper Pylon times. Scrappers will do way more sustained DPS because of Crit Strikes. I’ve done one Tanker vs Brute Pylon test and got these results back when page 5 came out: ”was just testing and got a faster pylon time on my bio/axe tank than my axe/bio brute too... was only 2:05 vs 2:12 though so at least it's a little closer there” I could’ve built/played the Brute wrong though. I’ll try to get more Pylon data for this throughout the week to see how they compare when using WP instead of Bio. But they should be using as many procs as they can to pump out the most damage their AT will allow.

Thanks Flea! I didn’t have Mids updated at the time so I used those as placeholders for either Touch of Lady Grey or Achilles procs! Also the Overwhelming Force in Cremate were replaced by Explosive Strike and Force Feedback procs 😁

All the builds are posted in the linked spreadsheet in the OP. But you can get plenty of bonuses form LoTGs and slotting full sets in non-attack-chain powers. For example I often put 5pc purple sets in Boxing and Brawl. The 80% is without hasten/ageless

Yes. They use hasten and ageless to solve any endurance/recharge issues. I can also usually got 70-80% global recharge set bonuses

You can only slot so much damage. 2 lvl 53 acc/dam HOs on scrappers & tanks puts you near ED cap. So you wanna get extra proc damage from the remaining slots. Thats the general slotting you see for minmax scrapper/blaster/tanker builds. Brutes usually trade an acc/dam for an extra proc

Do you have numbers to support this? I’ve done Pylon tests and Tankers can beat Brutes. I’ve also recorded the time it takes to kill Trapdoor and the Tankers usually kill him faster too. The build up procs really let Tanks catch up in ST dps.

Musculature really doesn't help Brutes. I gave them Vigor for acc/end/healing and trade an acc/dam HO for an additional damage proc in all their attacks. For example, take a lvl 50 Energy Melee Brute (Energy Punch): Base damage = 48.38 85% Fury = 130.6 Musculature Core Paragon + (lvl 53 Acc/Dam HO x 2) + 4 procs = 308.3 Vigor Core Paragon + (lvl 53 Acc/Dam HO x 1) + 5 procs = 293.6 So it usually makes sense to trade the marginal damage for more accuracy and endurance since Brutes need less damage slotting than a Tanker. You usually won't be able to get enough accuracy with Musculature without sacrificing a damage proc. Also, it's fair to have Scrappers chase enemies occsionally. They don't have punchvoke like Brutes/Tankers. And yes, damage procs were always used unless FF, -Resistance, or Chance for BU were available. And prioritized procs that are less likely to be resisted.

I think builds with procs are the best to use for benchmarks right now. Especially to have metrics to compare when/of proc changes come. Wish i had time to do the test again with limited procs. I’ve done a few comparisons with proc limitations on claws & axe and the results were similar. The Tanker still cleared faster than the Brute but the gap was slightly smaller. I don’t think any set benefits from PPM drastically more than others. If a set has lower PPM, it just means it can use attacks more often.

I’ve been wanting to find a test to measure this kind of thing. Unfortunately it doesn’t look like there’s missions with a bunch of EBs/AVs on a small map that’s easily repeatable. I’ll start looking into an AE solution! I thought about Pylons but I don’t think they’re a good measure for how fast a set can kill a boss/EB/AV. Something like energy melee would suffer in sustained DPS even thought it can 2 shot a boss. So gonna try to think something up for it!

I’ve done tests where only one IO set is allowed per power. The tanker will still clear faster than a brute because of AoE radius and target caps. I’m not sure what “proc monkey” means.. but slotting just enough accuracy/damage and filling the rest with procs is the meta, so it should be used for testing. One of my goals is to have this as a benchmark to use against any potential proc changes. I think another important point to mention is now that hardmode exists, Tankers have a legit role in something.

I think it’s pretty under appreciated! Freezing Touch is one of the best ST attacks IMO, perfect for Crit Strikes. Frost and Frozen Aura can put out a lot of cold damage in a wide area, which isn’t commonly resisted. And then Ice Patch will keep enemies in place to make sure they’re all getting hit with AoE damage. Frost is even good for ST damage 😁