thunderforce
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Posts posted by thunderforce
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16 hours ago, Talsiar said:
My understanding (based off inference, I have by no means looked at code and am not an authority on how CoH works)
This kind of speculation based on implementation details would not be very helpful _with_ some familiarity with the code. Without, I'm afraid it really is completely pointless. Yes, it wouldn't work exactly like any existing power - no more than Bodyguard mode did when it was implemented. No, that isn't a reason to suppose it would be hard to implement.
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1 minute ago, Talsiar said:
For my part, I don't think the toggle is the right way to do it, because I don't think the toggle would fix MM Bots from having ludicrous levels of KB
I don't see why it _wouldn't_ apply to a MM's minions.
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8 minutes ago, Rudra said:
You and I have a very different definition of advantage versus disadvantage.
Well, yes. To me the advantage is in having more fun which for me - personal choice - is quite closely related to, among other things, enemies being knocked back, sideways, over cliffs and I would say "knocked up" but that might be misinterpreted. If that happens less it's a disadvantage.
You seem to be talking about game-mechanical efficiency - maybe effective defence by soft control not DPS - but either way I don't care very much, if anything I think the game could do with being a bit harder, and as far as possible I want to _not have_ this supposed advantage.
QuoteThat was not going to be my response. My response is above. I don't bother tracking xp/hour. I don't even track DPS.
I think it's essentially the same response; I was wrong about what kind of game-mechanical efficiency you were on about, that's all.
QuoteI've said repeatedly it is not about a single slot.
Indeed. However, the supposed "free advantage" this change would convey can often be had now with the expenditure of one slot, so it _is_ about a single slot.
QuoteYou're fixated. You don't even acknowledge what I say.
I am, yes, a bit fixated on the way you have repeatedly characterised my request as "asking for a free advantage" when I was doing nothing of the kind. I tend to concentrate on things people say about me which are both demeaning and false. I think most people do and you should not be surprised when it happens.
However, I have in the course of this thread alone made two further suggestions which as far as I can tell entirely overcome your objection even though I think that objection is absurd. I'm not sure why that isn't acknowledging what you say.
QuoteI'm done bashing my brains out just to be ignored. I made my case. You chose to ignore it. What happens, happens.
I'm quoting this because I'm an awful cynic and I think there might just be a _tiny_ chance it turns out to have been slightly misleading.
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25 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:
As for those players existing... I guarantee they do. Based on my Live experiences, I would be willing to bet that most of them are on Excelsior.
Realistically, yeah, there's always going to be someone (and I agree re Excelsior). But I think it seems much less likely they exist in such numbers that you, or someone like you, is going to be troubled by "toggle or quit" other than extremely infrequently. (Of course, this also means that someone like me won't be pleased by "toggle or quit" -> "oh good, immediate identification of bad team leader" other than extremely infrequently.)
Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic, or Reunion really is much nicer even though I play on it and I'm not very nice. (Or, a cynic would say, no-one can get a team on Reunion because it has no players - but joking aside, it's quiet, not dead.)
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8 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:
Well, when I was back on Live, I was generally able to win those players over by demonstrating to them that, properly used, Knockback can be an asset to the team rather than a detriment.
I was born in the mid-70s. I mention this because it's somewhat relevant; I have reached a point in life where I simply cannot be arsed to spend my time on that sort of person. Couple that with the fact that they're much rarer on HC and it seems certain that I will never do this and will never be denied the opportunity to do it by the feature I propose.
Now, I appreciate you may well be more willing than me to do that, not least because you couldn't be less willing; for all I know you also are my age, or older, but have retained more patience than I have. So yes, I understand that to you personally this proposal has a downside; but given (as discussed) those people seem much rarer now (when did you last team with a team leader who was a live-style control freak about _anything_?) I'm not sure it could be a very large downside for you, and I think it is extremely likely the total upside for the playerbase enormously exceeds the total downside for people like you (indeed, I think the net benefit from making it easier to identify control-freak team leaders alone might justify this proposal.)
I'm not trying to dismiss the concern; but I think one has to recognise that someone's gameplay is damaged by essentially any change, sometimes someone is you (or me), and it can still be a good change overall even if someone is less happy - and the game could not be changed in _any respect_ if finding that someone meant a new feature could not be developed. In this particular case - and yeah, Reunion may be odd - I don't even know if the kind of players who cause the concern even exist anymore.
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7 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:
That said, I have played a lot of MMO's. And one of the universal truths of MMO's is that some party leaders think they are God, and try to make everyone else play their way. There might be less of those people on HC (because HC seems to have a more mature player base than most MMO's, probably because most of us are old CoH Live vets), but I guarantee you there are still some of them.
I couldn't even tell you the last time I met one. Not this year. Of course, your experience may vary... but on reflection I think a feature that will cause those people to immediately and unequivocally identify themselves as soon as possible would be a good thing just because of that. Saves time figuring it out anyway and quitting.
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5 hours ago, Rudra said:
I am against the free advantage on specific powers. I don't care if it saves 1 slot. I don't care if it saves 1 million slots. I don't care about the slots. I care about the fact this thread is effectively asking for a free advantage.
It's not because it is not an advantage to me (except, I guess, in terms of the social business of finding teams). If Tornado or Bonfire knock mobs down not back they are _worse powers_. I'm asking for a way to have making them worse, a thing I don't much like doing but am willing to for the sake of an easier life sometimes, made slightly less awkward; I hope this may also please players who don't like knockback because they'll find it easier to recruit people who do to teams without being annoyed by it.
To anticipate your next reply; no, your belief that "better as in XP/hour matters" is not somehow more objectively correct than mine that "better as in more ragdolling everywhere matters".
You may care about one slot (frankly completely ridiculous as that is in the game we have; it wouldn't even make the list of the top hundred balance issues); I don't for a variety of reasons including that I wouldn't actually gain a slot if the proposed change was made.
That said, if we are going to pretend it's a serious issue, by all means the implementation could be to make the KB-to-KD IOs be "enable the KB-to-KD toggle" IOs. Bit clunky, but I could live with it.
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4 hours ago, 723wolf said:
I think a potential fix would be to make overwhelming force a global proc, so that if you equip the enhancement all your powers are kb->kd.
The OP discusses how approaches that depend on messing around with unslotters every time you go from a fun team to a no-fun team aren't ideal.
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4 hours ago, Stormwalker said:
Because I don't want to join a team and have the team leader tell me, "Turn the KD toggle on or leave." Which would absolutely happen, based on my previous experience with teaming as an energy blaster on Live.
Has whatever happened to you on live happened on Homecoming? My experience is once the early months were over and people's live habits faded, teams were enormously more relaxed about that sort of thing - it turns out, say, tankers' heads don't explode if you dare attack a single mob before they have neatly arranged every enemy they can exactly as they please. That said, I play on Reunion which has a distinctly different culture in some respects.
I do agree that if this happened it would be a problem; it's a legitimate concern. I'm not sure it's a bigger problem than the same tosser telling you "reslot your powers or leave".
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11 hours ago, Stormwalker said:
And this comes back to my main reason for not wanting such a toggle. I don't want to turn off knockback on all my powers. Knockback is a survival tool for an Energy Blaster. If a dangerous melee enemy gets in my face and I don't have enough headroom to fly away from him (or if he can fly), I only have two answers: Stun (which has a fairly long cooldown) or knock him across the freakin' room. So I really don't want to give up the option to knock him across the freakin' room if I need to!
Presumably right now you use your powers in a way that doesn't make teams that are overly precious about knockback complain. So, if the toggle was added, you would leave it off and continue just as you are. What's the problem?
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16 hours ago, Rudra said:
What makes it no fun? (And how do you get it for free? I could use a few free sets of Overwhelming Force....)
Even if you prevented the powers that weren't heavily improved by the toggle from being affected by it, there would still be an uproar from those that want to get the free advantage on those powers too. So instead of trying for a free advantage, maybe try coming up with tweaks to the existing sets or come up with new sets to make people happy?
It's no fun because enemies don't get flung away hilariously. I don't know how many ways I can put this. I, and like-minded people, are completely happy to clear missions a bit slower, which we don't care about, in order to ping enemies about the place like billiard balls, which is extremely amusing.
I get it for free in terms of a supposed "slot tax". If I was slotting Overwhelming Force I'd slot the whole set because that is what I do. (But more generally this idea that game balance will be damaged seriously if Hypothetically Optimal Man can save one slot is frankly ridiculous in a game where since _2007_ blasters have been able to be turned into omnipotent tank-mages and we're now facing an actual uproar because something is being done to very slightly reduce it. One slot isn't even on the radar.)
No tweak to sets that I can see addresses the problem which I already stated in the OP. Some people like KB, some don't, let the people who like it turn it on when they're with people who like it and turn it off when they're with people who don't.
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21 hours ago, Rudra said:
Another claim that using a set is a enhancement tax. You didn't use those words, but you are saying the same things. Here's a(n admittedly snarky) thought: Use the set and not just the single enhancement. It gives bonuses too. Saying using this one enhancement from a set prevents you from getting set bonuses is a very poor argument. You're saying the set that enhancement is in doesn't give set bonuses.
As has been said in so many KB-KD threads I have read, the way KD changes KB powers is a huge advantage. Like the Tornado and Bonfire no longer throwing mobs away, but keeping them in its damage effect constantly falling in place. You do not get that for free.
OP here, not making that claim. I very nearly always slot complete sets in attacks anyway and Overwhelming Force is perfectly serviceable apart from the no-fun bit. I don't want it but if I get it I absolutely do get it for free.
Hell, if this is a serious problem, make the toggle not affect powers where it's felt to provide too great a benefit.
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14 hours ago, Stormwalker said:
You are definitely right about people screaming when an energy blaster joins the team. I have to admit, it really ticks me off, too. Some of us know how to use our knockback as a tool and an asset to the team rather than a detriment.
This is typical of the problem.
Knockback is an asset to me because mobs go flying and it's hilarious. It's an asset to my regular IRL friends I team with for the same reason. We just don't care about getting XP 10% faster or whatever. Let us have our fun when we're alone and give us a toggle to not annoy other people when we're not.
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5 hours ago, blue4333 said:
Why is this considered fun when mobs are randomly knocked back out of AoE and other Melee Players? I always notice in these KB to KD threads that it's always the feelings of the KB-enthusiasts that we have to be careful about - not trying to ruin their fun.
It's fun because mobs flying through the air, ragdolling about, and being flung off cliffs is entertaining.
Your second sentence doesn't make sense; join a PUG with a /energy blaster and start Power Pushing stuff about, and you'll soon find you have to be careful of the feelings of KB-haters.
(FTAOD don't actually do that. It's a hypothetical case to consider.)
5 hours ago, Rudra said:KB to KD already exists. Use the enhancements. A toggle that gives you the advantage of the enhancement is what everyone is opposed to. That was stated in this thread.
By "everyone" you mean "some people"; indeed your reply was immediately below someone not opposed to it.
It has indeed been repeatedly stated in this thread. It's not clear why since of course everyone involved already knows it exists.
The enhancement doesn't offer an advantage to me.
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38 minutes ago, JasperStone said:
Being able to choose what the power does - KB, KD, or KU would be ideal
Please let's not get into stretch goals which will never be implemented. A toggle is a simple change and makes the game worse for no-one.
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The weapon model proliferation sparks joy, thanks.
(A stretch goal: let VEATs have more than one VEAT costume slot.)
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Had a quick play with this on Brainstorm. I notice that while I draw my weapon with the normal animation, it just teleports back to my back when I'm done using it. I wonder if it's feasible to play the drawing animation in reverse?
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13 hours ago, Wavicle said:
This restores proper difficulty to the 35+ game. Good change.
That sounds good to me. (Stretch goal: get rid of the incarnate level shift so +4 is +4 not +3 or +1. Not joking.)
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No More Offensive Toggle Drops: Toggles that used to drop when mezzed will instead have their effects suppressed while mezzed and for 8s after breaking out of mezz.
Whoever came up with this is the wind beneath my wings. Bravo.
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I'm a little surprised by this since Psi holes and the like have been around forever and even sometimes mix things up a bit.
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Please, can you write a little about the motivation for the NPC Attack Type Adjustments?
(This reads like it has a subtext of "I think they are terrible", but that's not my intention.)
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On 7/6/2022 at 6:05 PM, Andreah said:
Or, and this is my last suggestion, volunteer to work on the development team and offer to do all the game changes necessary to make a toggle work.
I have volunteered to do something else close to my heart; fix typos. Stony silence.
Do you know of anyone at all who has volunteered to join the development team and been accepted? Me neither.
This suggestion is less practical than "just have two builds", and that's a high bar.
It may be a hardy perennial but a toggle is a simple and obvious solution. It's not perfect, but neither is the status quo.
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I know we've been around a few suggestions on this, but I was thinking about it today.
Some people hate knockback. Some people, myself included, think it's hilarious fun. People in the first group get annoyed if they team with people in the second group who start having hilarious fun; people in the second group get annoyed because people in the first group want them to buy an IO and slot it, which - unless they've got an unlimited budget for unslotters - means they can't have hilarious fun even when they're off by themselves.
The IO isn't a good answer; both groups would be happier if people could go back and forth at will. Making Null do it has been suggested, and it's a better option - but ideally it would just be a toggle somewhere, so that in-mission people could turn it on and off to keep the team happy.
Yes, Hypothetically Optimal Man will find some way to toggle it on and off a bunch to gain a 2% advantage in some scenario. I think we can live with that.
Yes, jerks would toggle it on unexpectedly in order to be jerks to people in the first group, but there are many ways a jerk can annoy their mission team already and they can't possibly all be eliminated.
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Discussion on Discord and testing in game has made it pretty clear that while the Absorb Proc is a proc in the sense that, well, it procs, it is a Global in other respects - it's always on regardless of the state of the power it's in. For example, I was able to slot it in a rez (some defender primaries take Healing sets in their rez) and trigger it by falling from the top of the skybox.
I'm mentioning this because I intend to edit the wiki to reflect this and it's going to be pretty confusing for anyone who doesn't know why.
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KB to KD toggle
in Suggestions & Feedback
Posted
I've proposed above two answers to the supposed balance issue; make the toggle not work on powers where it's felt to be overly effective, or make the "KB to KD" IO into a "make this power respect the KB to KD toggle" IO (which I would be fine with even though I would then be using a slot to have less fun sometimes). A third option would be to reduce the damage of a power having its KB suppressed (by the toggle not an IO) by whatever amount is felt necessary.
If it's really felt there's a serious balance issue here - which for the sake of argument I'm willing to suppose there is - it seems it could easily be addressed.