Auroxis
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Posts posted by Auroxis
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16 minutes ago, Vanden said:
He has a point in the general sense that a Tanker shouldn't outdamage a Brute, but his numbers absolutely do not show Tankers outdamaging Brutes in the general case.
The general case being what? No damage buffs at all and AoE reach and target cap being irrelevant?
QuoteIt makes more sense to me that the reason he won't let it go is because he feels like he isn't being heard, rather than because the idea of a Tanker outdamaging a Brute in any scenario is just an unacceptable development.
I already stated why it's hard for me to let go, I wanted offensive support buffs for a long time (I've been vocal about my reasoning long before the patch) and instead i got a support nerf, a useless must-pick t1 power and a tanker that more closely resembles a brute in function.
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30 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:
Were these the tests using Stacked Rage on a Tanker compared to a Brute at 50% Fury in the first patch?After your testing, Sir Myshkin and several others, we all know that Super Strength is broken and the epitome of outliers for this concept. And thank you very much for that, as now, we’re likely to get a rebalanced Super Strength (without those ridiculous side-effects) once the Captain gets around to power set passes in the future.
See, this is why I didn't wanna give feedback again, because there are always people who ignore 90% of my and other people's work and cherry-pick whatever suits their argument.
I calculated and gave damage comparisons at multiple damage buff and fury breakpoints which showed Tankers reaching Brute levels of damage when moderate damage buffs are in play(Rage is not the only source), created new builds and ran tests (With TW, Staff, and SS, leadership, weaken resolve, pyre mastery, soul mastery) both with pylons and regular gameplay. That you choose to take all that and boil it down to "you did nothing but show SS needs a nerf" is downright insulting to the hours upon hours of work i invested into build-making, setup, tests and documentation.
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16 minutes ago, Jimmy said:
I didn't say it gave Defender levels of force multiplication did I? 🙂 And yes, under certain circumstances Tankers will out-damage Brutes, just as Corruptors can out-damage Blasters in certain circumstances.
The Tanker/Brute comparisons were done comparing identical melee/armor set configurations, the Corruptor/Blaster analogy doesn't quite work to the same effect. Also there's a reason Blasters got a buff.
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Yes @Jimmy because having Bruising gives you Defender levels of force multiplication? It's not even Controller/Corruptor/SoA/MM levels, and those classes' -res powers stack from other casters.
And if you wanna keep the Tanker different from a ranged support class, how are you ok with the fact that my tests (and others) showed the Tanker getting Brute levels of damage?
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16 minutes ago, Replacement said:
I have mentioned several times in those threads that I appreciated your invaluable data; you made a great case and dissented without belittling. But you have also proven that no answer short of "you're right. We'll do things exactly your way" will satisfy you.
Far from it. "My way" would have been completely different from the changes (which I obviously won't get into ITT), I agreed to compromise on several issues including the removal of Bruising, but the only thing I got was a slight increase to leadership and melt armor debuff/buff numbers which were toned down shortly afterwards. There was also the addition of Weaken Resolve which soon after got the multiplier attached to weaken it on tankers.
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4 minutes ago, siolfir said:
Exactly.
I'm not here to re-open the topic. I'm here to respond to posts saying the bruising topic was "hashed out" when in fact it was clearly not, as you can see in the post you linked.
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1 minute ago, siolfir said:
Sure, you don't have to, but you said you would. In the last feedback thread.
This isn't the feedback thread.
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12 minutes ago, esotericist said:
i don't know if you got a personal response or not, but i know that powerhouse definitely discussed those issues.
I did, and while it was discussed, a lot of my counter-arguments were ignored.
Quotealso, that goes both ways: just because you think your position is solid doesn't mean the devs have to change what they're to match your desires.
And I don't have to stay quiet if I feel like my voice isn't being heard.
Quoteis the only "acknowledgment" you consider valid "undoing the thing I disagree with"? because again, there was actual discussion in the threads.
There was actual discussion, and I wasn't asking for all the changes i dislike to be removed. If I weren't able to compromise I would've given up a long time ago.
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8 minutes ago, esotericist said:
the concerns about bruising were not brushed aside, they were responded to more than once. powerhouse gave firm rationale for why it wasn't being kept, and why it wasn't as good for party composition as it appeared. powerhouse reported they even did focus testing on alternatives internally, but they didn't work out.
I responded to every single one of those replies and didn't get a response in the end. Just because you think the rationale was firm doesn't mean I have to agree with it.
Quotewe lost a thing, sure, but the concerns were heard, and were acknowledged.
Acknowledged how? By giving tankers a stronger buff/debuff multiplier only to nerf it back down because my tests showed the damage buffs were too strong alongside the support buffs? By making T1 powers useless in a patch that's supposed to address tankers?
Quotei personally hate that it's gone myself, and i view tankers are more of a support AT than anything else*, but to pretend that the concerns were not acknowledged is in pretty stark defiance of the actual history of the discussions.
* as I see it, aggro management is just another form of mez, but instead of the critter not being able to attack, they're just being forced to attack something that can take it instead of something that can't
I love this game so obviously this won't stop me from coming back, it's just me expressing my disappointment more than trying to change stuff at this point.
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Just now, siolfir said:
Also, to all the people complaining about losing Bruising: there are focused feedback threads for Tanker changes, where this was all hashed out. Feel free to go poke through those.
"All hashed out" implies both sides of the argument were satisfied.
I'm still left with a useless must-pick T1 power, still lose a feature i've been enjoying for years in favor of a damage buff I didn't want (i wanted support buffs), and I still lose class distinction between the brute and tanker. There was no "hashing out" being taken place, just me addressing my concerns and them being brushed aside over and over again.
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Time/* is probably the most flexible defender to build due to how easy it is to reach recharge and defense goals. You can go for different tank/utility/damage routes without really missing out on a lot.
My favored route is Sorcery for the Spirit Ward/Rune of Protection utility due to the recharge levels you can reach and Spirit Ward adding range to your support package.
Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designerClick this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Time Manipulation
Secondary Power Set: Sonic Attack
Power Pool: Sorcery
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Soul MasteryHero Profile:
Level 1: Temporal Mending -- Prv-Absorb%(A), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(3), Prv-Heal/Rchg(3), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(5), Prv-Heal(5), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(7)
Level 1: Shriek -- DfnBst-Acc/Dmg(A), DfnBst-Dmg/Rchg(9), DfnBst-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), DfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(29), DfnBst-Rchg/Heal%(36), DfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 2: Time's Juncture -- HO:Enzym(A), HO:Enzym(7)
Level 4: Scream -- SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(A), SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), GldJvl-Dam%(42), HO:Nucle(46)
Level 6: Spirit Ward -- Pnc-Heal(A), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(11), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(17), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(17), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(19)
Level 8: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 10: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Temporal Selection -- Pnc-Heal(A), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(13), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(13), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(15), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(15)
Level 14: Howl -- Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Rgn-Knock%(31), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(34), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(37), Ann-ResDeb%(37)
Level 16: Mystic Flight -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 18: Farsight -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(31), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(31), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(45), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(46)
Level 20: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(21), Rct-ResDam%(27)
Level 22: Amplify -- GssSynFr--Build%(A)
Level 24: Rune of Protection -- UnbGrd-Max HP%(A), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(25), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(25), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(27), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(29)
Level 26: Slowed Response -- AchHee-ResDeb%(A)
Level 28: Shockwave -- SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(A), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(40), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(42), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(43), ExpStr-Dam%(43), PstBls-Dam%(43)
Level 30: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 32: Chrono Shift -- Pnc-Heal(A), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(33), Pnc-Heal/Rchg(33), Pnc-EndRdx/Rchg(33), Pnc-Heal/EndRedux(34)
Level 35: Dark Embrace -- TtnCtn-ResDam(A), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(36), GldArm-3defTpProc(36)
Level 38: Dreadful Wail -- Arm-Dam%(A), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Arm-Acc/Rchg(39), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(40), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(40)
Level 41: Power Boost -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 44: Screech -- Apc-Dam%(A), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Apc-Acc/Rchg(45), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(50), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(50), GldJvl-Dam%(50)
Level 47: Summon Mistress -- ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(48), ExpRnf-Dmg/EndRdx(48)
Level 49: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Quick Form
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(19), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(21)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(23), PrfShf-EndMod/Acc(23)
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Clarion Radial Epiphany
Level 50: Void Radial Final Judgement
Level 50: Degenerative Radial Flawless Interface
Level 50: Banished Pantheon Core Superior Ally
Level 50: Melee Core Embodiment
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Sorry but as it feels like my feedback is being ignored, I will no longer participate in these tests and discussions.
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The reasoning was that it's only an AV assist tool unless you're at high levels of recharge, which usually only arrive once your build is almost done. I think you can switch its level selection with Screech since that one's mostly used against AV's as well.
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Here's one with Cauterize
Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designerClick this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Mutation Defender
Primary Power Set: Thermal Radiation
Secondary Power Set: Sonic Attack
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Mace MasteryHero Profile:
Level 1: Warmth -- NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(A), NmnCnv-Heal(17), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(17), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(19), NmnCnv-EndRdx/Rchg(19), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx(37)
Level 1: Shriek -- SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(3), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(3), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(27), Thn-Acc/Dmg(50), Thn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(50)
Level 2: Cauterize -- Prv-Absorb%(A), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(11), Prv-Heal/Rchg(13), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(13), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(15), Prv-Heal(15)
Level 4: Thermal Shield -- TtnCtn-ResDam(A), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(25), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31), TtnCtn-ResDam/Rchg(37)
Level 6: Scream -- SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(A), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(7), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), Thn-Acc/Dmg(9), Thn-Dmg/Rchg(40), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 8: Plasma Shield -- TtnCtn-ResDam(A), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(11), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(33), TtnCtn-ResDam/Rchg(33)
Level 10: Power of the Phoenix -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Thaw -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(42)
Level 14: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 16: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(33)
Level 18: Forge -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 20: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(21), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(21), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(23), LucoftheG-EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 22: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 24: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(25)
Level 26: Heat Exhaustion -- Acc-I(A), RechRdx-I(27)
Level 28: Howl -- Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(29), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), Rgn-Knock%(31), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(31)
Level 30: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 32: Tough -- TtnCtn-ResDam(A), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(34), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(34), TtnCtn-EndRdx(34)
Level 35: Screech -- Apc-Dam%(A), Apc-Dmg(36), Apc-Acc/Rchg(36), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(37)
Level 38: Dreadful Wail -- Arm-Dam%(A), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Arm-Acc/Rchg(39), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(40), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(40)
Level 41: Scorpion Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(42), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(42), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(46), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(50)
Level 44: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-ResDam%(45), Rct-Def(45), Rct-Def/EndRdx(46)
Level 47: Melt Armor -- Acc-I(A), RechRdx-I(48), RechRdx-I(48), AchHee-ResDeb%(48)
Level 49: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Quick Form
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Clr-RunSpd(A), Clr-EndRdx(45)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Clr-RunSpd(A), Clr-EndRdx(43)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Clr-Stlth(A), Clr-RunSpd(43)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-RunSpd(A), Clr-EndRdx(43)
Level 1: Vigilance
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(9)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(5), EndMod-I(5)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Spiritual Core Paragon
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8 hours ago, kenlon said:
The devs kept a lot of sub-par things around, so yeah, I'd say you do.
So I need to get my head checked, as do the original game's devs for choosing Bruising to address the Tanker's woes. I appreciate your concern for people's health, but please keep such comments to yourself.
QuoteBruising provided a very small marginal benefit to damage against one target
You can say that about any single target -res power, it being marginal is your opinion. Multiplying team damage is a massive asset , so much that CP nerfed -res multiple times already and believes making Bruising stack (from multiple casters) would make the class OP.
Quoteprovided you were using your very terrible T1 attack every 10 seconds to keep it up, without there being any sort of useful indication when the effect fell off of a target.
You know there are visual red debuff indicators for -res? And the whole 10 second thing is a useful indicator in itself, it's not a random duration and it can fit into an attack chain seamlessly.
QuoteIt did nothing in AoE situations, which are and always have been the predominant style of combat, and even with bruising, Tank damage was utterly laughable.
Tankers have a lot of good AoE options, ranging from powersets to power pools. And this patch is already addressing AoE.
Tanker damage is definitely not "utterly laughable" as it is right now, that's more of a player issue than a class issue. That said I'm not gonna use that argument to deny the class damage buffs, but I am gonna talk against damage buffs when they come at the expense of taking away features of the class I enjoy.
QuoteIf they had wanted to go in on "tanks serve as damage buffs to their teammates", then having it be, say, an effect that was applied alongside taunt could be useful, or simply have it apply to all tanker attacks.
I did actually suggest the former.
QuoteBruising was a bad band-aid fix that didn't actually solve the problem, and removing it and giving tankers decent damage and better AoE is pretty damn near perfect.
Bruising was far from a bad "band-aid fix" though, as it fixed multiple problems while keeping the class unique, and Tankers remain popular to this day. It should be expanded upon, not removed in favor of having two Brute classes.
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I don't like the -regen idea (not just because "change bad boohoo").
Decent -regen is something that's for the most part exclusive to classes with access to support powersets, unlike -res which is fairly spread around and the -regen cap is much lower than the -res cap. So you're probably looking at giving paltry -regen values (like -150%) which is worse than multiplying your team's damage with -res, or giving decent -regen values (-300%) which either steps on support's toes (you're literally nullifying what they bring to the party, since -regen has a far lower cap than -res) or nullifies the effect itself once you're teamed with more than three other tankers.
I already told CP why I disagree with the concept of stack-able bruising being OP. You currently have DPS+Support classes able to contribute greater -res/team utility (Corruptors and SoA's) and the game isn't suffering for it. You have lots of Defender combos that contribute tons of -res. A full team of tankers with the current damage buffs and stack-able bruising? Sure that's pretty strong, but the damage buffs can be toned down a bit to compensate. We still have the AoE buffs to help the Tanker in the AoE damage department, though they are inconsistent, much like the self-buff change which hopefully gets rolled back. Well so much for not giving feedback anymore, but the fact that bruising is getting some attention gave me some hope I guess.
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On 12/9/2019 at 11:14 PM, kenlon said:
Those people need their heads examined. Bruising is an objectively bad mechanic.
So objectively bad the original devs of this game kept it for years. So objectively bad it gives the class a support aspect that sets it apart from the Brute and makes the lackluster T1 attacks decent. So objectively bad it's part of the reason I rolled a Tanker and fully IO'd/Incarnated it out. But apparently I need my head examined for doing that.
I'm done giving feedback on this massive patch (which gets new stuff added to the list constantly, except letting me keep what I have). But I thought I needed to say something when I saw that comment.
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10 minutes ago, Moka said:
Tankers were also given higher buff numbers to the team, to be fair. They give defender levels through the leadership pool.
Those were nerfed to controller levels. And there's the removal of Bruising, so it's still a net loss in support.
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7 hours ago, Caulderone said:
NOT affected:
PBAoE bigger than 10
Cone bigger than 90 degrees
Shockwave (likely due to its range)
Footstomp and Combustion (maybe others) were shrunk to 10 so they get the buff.
TW gets none of the area buffs
That's the highlights.
The target cap increases are also spread around and do not apply to all attacks.
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9 minutes ago, Infinitum said:
I dont know how fury works with your setup but mine is consistently at 80-90 percent on farms, and reaches that in a few seconds on teams.
My Brutes definitely don't reach that consistently on teams unless i'm constantly in combat and getting aggro. And the original statement was about a "modest" amount of Fury.
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1 minute ago, Infinitum said:
No it won't. Not even a majority of situations. There may be outliers like SS but majority of situations the AOE wont matter on either AT.
SS simulates a "moderately buffed" scenario, other powersets need more juice to get there but with only a "modest" amount of Fury to compare it with the gap is quite small.
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Just now, macskull said:
Nor do I. When the initial Tanker patch went live I immediately started looking at Tanker builds because Tankers were going to be obviously better at farming than Brutes. With the current iteration that's not the case. Almost all the math being thrown around here for saying "Tanks outdamage Brutes, Brutes are useless!" assumes that both ATs are at their respective target and damage caps and that's just not something you see in anything except fringe cases.
The fact is that a Brute with even a modest amount of Fury is going to outdamage a Tanker most of the time, especially once the upcoming Fury changes are factored in.
"Most of the time" is fairly subjective. If you're running on a team with a moderate amount of damage buffs, a Brute with only a modest amount of Fury is definitely going to get out-classed by a Tanker.
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2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:
I'm seeing a trend that these objections are mainly farm related, and even there theres not much difference between the two.
I dont get it.
I've personally run zero farm tests, all of mine have been in the regular +4x8 gameplay and DPS comparison departments.
Keep in mind that in a farm scenario, Tankers get the target cap benefit while Brutes get the max fury benefit. It's an interesting edge case scenario.
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2 minutes ago, macskull said:
All my testing given identical builds has shown that there is very little difference and switching to the Tanker didn't really speed me up.
With these powersets specifically? Did you try red insp farm runs?
Patch Notes for January 16th, 2020 - Issue 26, Page 4 (Release Candidate 2)
in [Open Beta] Patch Notes
Posted
Even if Bruising wasn't meant to give tankers identity, tankers have the best -res numbers on every single power available to melee classes.
There is evidence of offensive support tendencies on tankers even if you assume the bruising addition was purely to make the forced t1 picks decent.