WindDemon21

Nah that would be a LARGE margin of the power getting significantly weaker to being pretty much useless unless you max slot it with only /mez Hamis to max its stats for it to ever work properly in the later game if that was the case. I'm pretty sure it has to be a bug because that's way too specific and late game use for the power otherwise it wouldn't make sense.

As the title suggests, it's being affected by the purple patch which it shouldn't be, which pretty much invalidates the power and requires mez slotting (to which you have to wait till 47 for for hamis, why we need universal mez IO sets for earlier levels) just to keep it at the same or slightly higher mag. This should not be the case. Clearly the bug lies in the "enhancements increase mag of the power not duration", but i'd assume it's still a bug and not intended nonetheless as it basically forces the power to be max enhanced against higher level foes just to keep it doing anything.

Easier, not better. Better because they're easier, sure. We're arguing semantics there. I stated earlier in the thread that it was better due to that, but the actual values would still be the same (granted further convos with devs if nerfs are needed or not to do so)

I get that line of thinking, but that doesn't mean it's right, or at the very least has to mean that. Ultimately it would be up to the devs on the final decision, but this is to bring up HAVING it fixed to do so without any nerfing needed, as it's still largely a QoL upgrade. If the devs want to chime in on where that stands, then we can start an actual conversation about it and if it's worth it. Many would like to see them placeable on both ally and enemies alike. So it's not hurting to try to get that to happen, rather than turning it down BEFORE it even gets to the stage of what the devs would allow. Pre-assuming something has to be nerfed (again, when it's a QoL thing not actually affecting the power values themselves), is a really really weird way of thinking. Being AWARE that it might be a tradeoff is one thing, saying no before the devs even chime in, is another really, really weird thing.

They're not stronger though. They are just being changed what targets they can be placed on, ie QOL

As I said that would be a other thread. Determinations about radii if the debuff value would go down it's possible/likely which is why I said it would be a other thread. This one is specifically just to have them be placeable on both for all debuff toggles. This was never about everything you just said. And also, the rad debuffs are not balanced by being faster to use (nor really cheaper either, .52/s is a big cost and is factored because there are two of them). You forget they were made when the cast times were much longer before and then were turned down. For some odd reasons as well, we were strictly told that cast times do not factor into the balance of a power. So again, this is only about placing debuff toggles on both enemies and allies, to which no, they would not have to be nerfed in order to do so. To think they would have to be for what is a QoL thing is just weird and wrong.

You say advantage. And while yes it is, that's the entire purpose, but it's still a QOL change. That radius isn't 15 ft because of it being placeable on an ally, it's 15ft, well because the devs originally just decided that, but if anything because of what it does. Look at rad debuffs, while I'll argue they should be wider for sure, they are also only 15ft as well, but are currently placeable on enemies only at the moment. Bottom line, it's still a QOL issue for the most part. There is no reason this can't be done, and it shouldn't have to have them nerfed in any way just for that. If YOU think they do, well that's weird, really weird, but that doesn't mean they HAVE to be by any means. They are entirely capable to be workable on both without being adjusted in any way. Same thing goes for increasing their radius to 25ft, but that would be another discussion/thread.

Nobody said anything about the radii being nerfed. I actually said they should all be increased to 25ft. As to your intent, then you can't really explain sonic Disruption then either, and that works just fine as it is. It's just a QOL fix, it doesnt change how the power affects the targets, just where the toggle is placed.There doesn't need to be much more thought into it beyond that.

Sounded like you were saying that if they were placed on the tank, the tank would end up being debuffed by the debuff instead of the enemies, but that's not true because it already works with Disruption Aura without any issues. Add some -damage and it's just like enervating field. So no reason it can't work for those and others too and be flagged to work for both.

Except you're completely wrong. This code already exists in game and works perfectly fine for that via sonic disruption. So there is no issue with the coding of how to do that.

They definitely wouldn't have to do that. It's a QoL change, not a stat change. That would only be done if they would appropriately fix the radii to be 25ft like darkest night's, but not just being able to cast it on an ally, that's QoL.

Yeah but that's no different than other toggles, there's really nothing they can do about that with the elevators unless they gave toggles an infinite range before they drop off. Which i guess they could be able to do that but likely wouldn't since it doesn't impact much of the game. Being able to place toggles on both allies and enemies though, would make a much nicer improvement and QoL for those types of powers. Even ally toggles like sonic repulsion, when solo, being able to use that on the enemy mobs would be a helpful addition, obviously also for enemy toggles being able to place on your own pet on a controller or a melee type would also be the main intent.

So basically what buffs already are. Not a good enough argument. Plus you still have to manage the end cost which would now be 100% of the time with no downtime, can run the risk of the teammate or pet moving out of the area, and will still get suppressed when mezzed. The entire point is for it to be more beneficial/set and forget like buffs, but they still have all the same drawbacks they did before, only now with more end cost to compensate for the better ease of use.

Except this is wholly wrong in actual practice. Glittering, the taunt/ku only lasts a few seconds and doesn't stop attacking besides the short ku and some -to hit (dont get me wrong i love the power but it's far from a full control), meaning vulnerabilities to aoe attacks or If your teammate has their own taunt aura that will supercede it they'll still be attacked. The cone sleep only lasts a few seconds of deep sleep before they wake up (edit and it's confuse you can't use if you want to hit the whole mob with the sleep really due to the cone size/shape so that is a nice addition but only really matters when the mob is down to just a few enemies). The aoe hold (that fyi is target based not location based) isn't up often enough and THAT should be the power you're reserving for those "oh sh!t" moments, aoe immobilize is standard and useful but doesn't prevent retaliation and takes longer to work because of the chain nature versus a regular taoe. And then there's brilliant barrage. You can NEVER guarantee that it will control a whole mob, since you can't control what gets the stun and what gets the fear, which still doesn't change that it's stats are off in it's current form where it's recharge should be 60s being half fear, but anyway, at BEST you can do is target one side of the mob, and *try* to place the fear portion on the other side, and just HOPE that rng lucks out so that every one of the 16 targets gets either stunned or feared with no overlap, but in reality that's still impossible (and would still mean a 60s rech). And at every single instance, it still goes far into how wholly unreliable the power is even at that. Again, I'm not saying to take away it's usefulness of having the dual stun and fear in two areas, the issue again, is as it currently is, it's recharge should be 60 seconds since half of it is fear. But even more appropriately, the stun should still be 16 targets, even if the duration was only 2/3 it's current duration and then the fear should really be 16 targets as well, turning it into a "stun full mob now but shorter duration, that turns into a longer lasting fear," or "stun one mob and fear another, but focus first on the stunned mob because the stun won't last as long" but as it currently is, no, the power needs fixed without question in some fashion, even if at thr very least it's just making the recharge 60s which would be proper given its only a half stun, where only full stuns should have the 90s recharge. Fears have 40s recharges. And again, procs don't factor in to a powers base use and stats so that argument is also moot.

This whole thing is invalidated though because you're strictly ignoring the target cap issue at 1/4. Balance wise, the power is still a major fail not doing what it's supposed to do unless they either lower the recharge, or more aptly, increase the target cap for the stun to 16 targets. What you are basically saying, is you're not fighting enough enemies to begin with for it to matter, but that doesn't change thst the power is still ill-performing what it's supposed to do in normal large sized mobs which is the whole issue.

You're missing the point. While still annoying sure, I'm not even saying to change HOW it works. The issue is the target cap having the amount of targets split between stun and fear making it insanely unreliable. You can keep it how it works but make the target cap for at least the stun hit the full 16 targets still. No macro can change how it chooses what enemies are affected by what (macro can only be to set location at the target or self) so it's impossible to designate which gets which effect. The power is atrociously bad because of the split nature being only valued as a half stun, while the other half, or rather less than half that isn't applying on the same enemies anyway wasting it, being a fear means they're still attacking which is especially bad on doms. Again this all goes to part of the original statement too? That if it remains unchanged, it's recharge should absolutely be at 60s not 90 since its half fear only. You can NOT say "but that hurts procs" without directly saying that it HAS to be a proc bomb only power, without saying that it shouldn't be balanced FOR THE POWER ITSELF for stats first. Which in either rate, still makes the power terrible. The only way this power works properly is to have at least the stun still hit 16 targets, with the fear being the extra bonus. (Which still helps procs out too anyway) You being happy with it as is with its current stats, shows nothing except that you're not fully understanding the power and balance. Again, the issue isn't that it has two areas of field that youre saying you like, the issue is the target cap for the stun and its reliability and fact that it's currently halved, and if it's halved(which is still god awful), it's recharge should not be 90s like other FULL aoe stuns, but then it should be at 60s since half of it is only a fear.

Obvious, if the target dies, you still get the heal from transfusion if it casts off, this still needs fixed for transference as well.

It honestly gets worse and worse the higher up you get too, since the deep sleep still breaks after a few seconds with any hits, you get a couple seconds of that, a couple off the column, but without having an every mob full control it really hurts

Much like shifting tides and enflame both can, any aoe placeable aura should really be able to be cast on either the enemy or an ally. Radiation infection, darkest night, sonic disruption, snowstorm etc. Would be a really nice change to those powers.

Generally that should be a BENEFIT, but only when the extra control is in fact EXTRA. But since the control is instead split, it just makes it weaker and less reliable. It's bad.

That's exactly the issue. Since the stun only his 8 targets but still only 8 for the fear too is it's an extremely unreliable control, and proving out a power has been explained that it should never be the sole intent/reason for a power's use. It's not actually for the reasons I've gone into detail explaining. The deep sleep still will break out, and the recharge on explosive isn't up enough to use every mob either. Adaptive recharge is interesting to help hold a single foe or when you don't need it in the first place, but without lowering the max recharge when it hits a full mob (its main use) it literally does nothing to help it be up more often and is just a cop out ploy to actually fixing the aoe holds which should have just been made 120s from the get go (or 120 max with adaptive recharge) There is zero reason or (enough) benefit to having this power split between fear and stun. Just make it a full stun already (or dual 16 target mix as I described above)

Actually especially for dominator it doesn't. Losing that every mob stun is a big hurt. The adaptive rech on the holds means nothing when hitting a full mob since they didn't lower the max recharge to 120s. 4 minutes is still too long to be up every mob. And while the deep sleep is a nice addition, it still gets broken and the confuse Is so minor in only a 20ft radius of the cone and only hitting 5 targets its hard to consider it for THAT much. Again, as a full stun the amount of proc damage loss would be almost negligible, but the loss of the guaranteed control is FAR more of an issue, especially for dominator. As to the recharge, yes it would hurt procs some, but that doesn't mean that the power shouldn't be balanced for itself first. If half is going to be fear, it should have a shorter recharge than a full aoe stun. Again, if fear is going to be a bonus, make both the fear and stun hit the full mob, but lower the duration of the stun so it still does its initial job of making it so they can't attack you, and then the fear lasts longer if that is needed. At the lowest rate, the fear wouldn't come into play anyway, at best it'll still help it control in the longer run while still allowing the stun to do its initial alpha purpose. You're GRAVELY overestimating the amount that one more basic damage proc is doing versus the power actually working properly for its initial reason for being. The best option for everyone seems to be having both fear and stun hit for the full 16 targets (can be in the same taoe too just get rid if the annoying location half of it) and make the stun last 10 seconds instead of 15, and then have the fear last the longer duration after it wears off. Same probability, better use. It's basically the same issue that Seeds had at 10 targets, and the same reason why they need to make it 16 targets as I just suggested.

Right, so for half the targets it may hit the proc, but since the max targets hit between both the stun and the fear is still only 16 targets, that's only going to end up with a very minimal increase in proc damage. Even if the code was put in weird where the damage proc from the fear set hit the 8 targets of the stun too, that's still adding not a ton more damage, for the whole power being gutted as far as actually being reliable for what it should be doing, especially on dominators. It's just nowhere near worth it for an extra half a proc. Which again, just make it hit both the stun and fear for 16 targets, but smaller durations on both, or just make it a full aoe stun and ignore the fear part (or have the fear as an added bonus, without factoring into the balance of the power). But currently, the power is just awful compared to a regular aoe stun and needs fixed. And even remaining currently how it is, the power should still have a 60s recharge (which yes hurts procs some, but should still be that recharge based on what the power does). But again, just make it a regular aoe stun, ignore the fear, or make both hit all 16 targets with a slightly shorter duration.

Your slotting would still provide the same amount of damage if it was just an aoe stun too though. It's gaining absolutely nothing by splitting it between half fear and half stun. All that does is make it's stun control less effective, Hence why i suggested make the stun hit all 16 targets, and as with the fear, but make it like, 75% duration of a normal stun, and same with the fear. Or just make it a normal aoe stun, it's awful how it currently is.

So this should go without saying, but since the power is split between half stun and half fear, which honestly just make it all stun at this point since it's incredibly annoying to use as is, but if its going to stay split then it should have a shorter recharge. Aoe fears have a 40s rech, aoe stuns have 90, so it would make sense for it to be 60 second recharge. Or split for it to hit full mob with both the stun and the fear, but lower duration on both so the stun still helps immediately and then the fear lasts longer (similarly suggested this for the aoe stun in arse and dominator illusion to be both stun AND immobilize but slightly lower duration on them). It also doesn't seem to differentiate between only casting the fear or stun on an enemy, so casts both on some, and then some in the mob get absolutely zero control of the 16 targets. This power is an absolute mess and unreliable as all gettup, especially for dominators who rely on that big mob control it really hurts them too. Though in all honestly, if the fear was just an ADDED bonus, sure, but the power should really just be an aoe stun. Even for those who might say to proc it out, for one, who knows what the future holds for that still, but in testing even, even with the ATO damage proc for controllers the damage seems to only be working on the stun portion of it anyway so you're even then still only getting half of the procs versus if it was just a regular aoe stun at least for that proc, and so far in testing with positrons blast proc, it works on both, but won't seem to trigger twice on an enemy getting hit with both the stun and the fear, so it's still not any extra proccing, it's only less. Please fix this power asap