Secondary: Invuln vs Will

[madmalkav]

I seem to see a lot more invuln builds and questions than willpower builds on the forums. They both seem durable. Is Invuln just that much better for endgame content or is there some other reason for its popularity? 

 

I know I want to play a super strength character and with all the knockdown to let you get some healing ticks and will has the extra end recovery built in, so it just seems like it would be a nicer experience leveling. I only speak from my limited experience of a 22 SS-Invuln brute that definitely needs to slot some end reducers and occasionally needs to pop a green versus a 22 TW-Will Scrapper that can mostly ignore both bars and do his thing. Maybe I’m just at a sweet spot for Will and/or need to slot some end reducers in my Invuln though. Is healing just too good while my difficulty is low but won’t scale if I bump up the slider?  My invuln brute was able to turn on bosses first, but I think that was primarily due to super strength juggling things versus invuln being any tougher. At 16 with the Regen when surrounded toggle will really seems to firm up.
 

Is the end bar going to be a pain until I have incarnates. I’m not even running Fighting toggles yet and have to keep an eye on it, but it isn’t too bad yet. I’ve mostly been just slotting some accs and dams in their primary attacks, three slotted stamina, and three slotted each s/l resist with resist dams. I haven’t sprung for any of the recovery procs on these guys. Anyway, it’s hard to know what to prioritize when leveling when everyone seems to post set wearing end game builds. It looks like lots of chars get by with no end recovery option, and those that have something that helps end don’t even three slot stamina or their end recovery option, since I guess it’s more than they need. 

[Heraclea]

I would prefer Invuln on a Tanker and WP on a Brute, and endurance is one of the reasons why.  Invuln is somewhat tougher against the typical damage the game throws at you, tougher than Willpower, which needs Tough and Weave in place before it can take a major alpha strike.  Invuln benefits from those too, but starts at a higher baseline.   Invuln's scaling defense when surrounded by enemies helps more than Willpower's scaling regeneration

 

But a brute needs to keep attacking, when a tanker can just taunt and brawl the way through taxing fights.   An Invuln brute would work better if you have access to all the Panaceas, Miracles, Numina's, and Performance Shifters you need, and will benefit more than the Willpower brute from having all that in place.  If you don't have that kind of merits or inf, Willpower will be a lot more fun to play. 

 

Also, Homecoming changes to powers mean that Willpower's taunt aura has been raised from second-class citizenship to equality.  So that is no longer a reason to prefer Invuln. 

[madmalkav]

The defense seems like something I could get from IO’s, but I guess it would be more work. But Heightened Senses seems to give DDR, so in the end, it feels like I would be as defensive while having better Regen and recovery, which are possible in IO’s but not sure how final numbers compare. It seems like even blasters can defense cap these days. I’m sure invuln would have a big headstart trying to get defense up for incarnate though. I guess I’ld have to sacrifice some resists to get the defense too compared to Invuln, so Invuln would be tougher in the end. Would be interesting to play with builds and see how they compare, but I stuck at builds. Maybe I could troll the forums for some defense capped willpower builds and see how their defense compares to a Hyperstrike invuln. 
 

Neat to hear they fixed wills taunt aura. I was only playing it on scrappers since I thought that was still a problem. 

[madmalkav]

So I made two el cheapo builds (no purples or anything) using mostly the same IO's where I could to compare final numbers. The Invuln had well over 90% S/L resist and 52% S/L defense. The Willpower build only had 34.2% S/L Defense (a purple away from cap at least, but basically taking almost four times the hits) and only 74.7% S/L resist. Both had weaker defenses to other types (32%/40% Fire/Energy Invuln versus 26.6%/31.3% Fire/Energy Will) and Willpower did have three times the regen (and stacks more when surrounded) and better end recovery.  The Will ended up with better psi numbers (16.5% def/8% Resist Invuln versus 22.5% def/46.6% Willpower), but still nothing stellar.

 

I kinda suck at builds, so if anyone else wants to give it a shot, feel free. I don't know Willpower hardly at all, so probably missed some obvious picks I should've made for the powers. I just slotted things that were in my Invuln build where I could fit them in Will powers, and a little Doctored Wounds where they would fit (but not much, since I didn't slot all the way up to 50 or anything). I'ld share my builds to see if anyone wanted to improve them, but they aren't anything stellar. Just lots of Kinetic Combats and Reactive Armor with a little Luck of the Gambler where it would fit and a sprinkling of various unique IO's. And like I said, I didn't even fill them out until 50 (since I kinda don't know much about epic pools). Just wanted to see where I could get with around 40 levels of slots and some basic set IO's. 

[icesphere]

I was always under the impression that WP was always slightly behind Invul in regards to defense and resistance, but made up for it with much higher HP/Regen/Endurance maintenance. I always figured this was a way to balance them out.

[madmalkav]

Yeah. My rough builds reflects the same. Just using el-cheapo builds, it looks like against S/L the Will would take a little over three times as many hits (except when popping a purple), and take those for 2.5 times the damage, so increase damage taken by around eight-fold but regenerate at 3x-4x the rate. The numbers against other damage types are a lot close though, and will would have a definite edge in regenning all the other stuff that hit, but then the invuln when building to a more expensive build becomes so ungodly tough that the lower regen is probably fine to shrug off the little bit of damage that gets through. Definitely Will is much better against psionic with both higher defenses and enhanced regen though, so there's always that.

 

I'ld be interesting in seeing how the final numbers differ for a real build of SS-Willpower. I'll probably need one anyway to work from, since I'm leaning towards levelling both a Invuln-SS Tanker and a WIll-SS brute and seeing which one I enjoy playing more in practice. I still have an SS-Invuln brute parked at 22, so if I decide I prefer the brute AT but would like Invuln better, I could always level him up some more too.

 

Anyone got a good SS-Will brute build, or can point me to one in the forums to get me started? I got my el cheapo build I tossed together that doesn't even manage to cap S/L resists, so I'm sure someone familiar with the powerset has better. I pretty much ported over a bunch of IO's from an invuln build where they would fit and stole a few tricks from willpower scrapper builds I had on hand, but it's definitely more a first draft that something polished to put a lot of time in. In a perfect world, I'ld have two SS-Will brute builds, one using relatively cheaper IO's to start with and one fully built out with purples to ultimately work towards, but beggars can't be choosers, so any build that gives me a good idea of where I'm going would be appreciated.

[r0y]

I ran a WP/TW tank on another server, it sure felt AT LEAST as survivable as invuln, but without a click-heal (well, dull pain) there's no "oh crap" button.  In fact, there's no clicking at all for WP, which pairs VERY WELL with Titan Weapons, as one wants to abuse the momentum bug(s).

 

Anyway, here's the build I used (updated it with Power Transfer proc):

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

r0y's build: Level 50 Natural Tanker
Primary Power Set: Willpower
Secondary Power Set: Titan Weapons
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: High Pain Tolerance -- NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx(A), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(3), NmnCnv-Heal(3)
Level 1: Defensive Sweep -- ScrDrv-Acc/Dmg(A), ScrDrv-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(40)
Level 2: Mind Over Body -- UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9), UnbGrd-ResDam(11), UnbGrd-Max HP%(11)
Level 4: Titan Sweep -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(5), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(46)
Level 6: Indomitable Will -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(45)
Level 8: Rise to the Challenge -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(9), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(43), Prv-Heal/Rchg(43), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(43), Prv-Absorb%(45)
Level 10: Fast Healing -- NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx(A), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(37), NmnCnv-Heal(40)
Level 12: Taunt -- MckBrt-Taunt(A), MckBrt-Taunt/Rchg(45), MckBrt-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(46), MckBrt-Acc/Rchg(46), MckBrt-Taunt/Rng(48), MckBrt-Rchg(50)
Level 14: Quick Recovery -- PwrTrns-+Heal(A), EffAdp-EndMod(17), EffAdp-EndMod/Rchg(34)
Level 16: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Ksm-ToHit+(17)
Level 18: Heightened Senses -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(19), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(19), Rct-Def/Rchg(21), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(21), Rct-ResDam%(23)
Level 20: Super Jump -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 22: Build Momentum -- AdjTrg-Rchg(A), AdjTrg-ToHit/Rchg(23)
Level 24: Follow Through -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(25), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(27), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(29), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(29)
Level 26: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(27)
Level 28: Kick -- Acc-I(A)
Level 30: Tough -- ImpSki-Status(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(31), GldArm-End/Res(31), GldArm-3defTpProc(31)
Level 32: Rend Armor -- Hct-Dmg/Rchg(A), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Hct-Acc/Rchg(33), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Hct-Dam%(34)
Level 35: Whirling Smash -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(37), FrcFdb-Rechg%(37)
Level 38: Arc of Destruction -- Arm-Dmg/Rchg(A), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Arm-Acc/Rchg(39), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Arm-Dam%(40)
Level 41: Weave -- ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(A), ShlWal-Def(42), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(42), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(42)
Level 44: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(48), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(48)
Level 49: Physical Perfection -- RgnTss-Regen+(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(50), Pnc-Heal/+End(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet 
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- NmnCnv-Heal(A), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(13), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(13)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), EffAdp-EndMod(15), EffAdp-EndMod/Rchg(15)
Level 1: Momentum 
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I can stand in the monster wall solo (in the Hive), tanking herd-cap Giant Monsters.  Debuffs are a weakness, as they are for most tanks, however.

 

Also, Martial Arts is an excellent Tank secondary, because of the +10% Melee/Ranged/AoE defense provided by Storm Kick (tier 2).  That plugs a lot of holes for many things.

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by r0y

[XaoGarrent]

Pre-IO sets WP is hands down the winner for any content that isn't near or completely exclusively S/L. It is a bit squishier against S/L heavy content, though. which makes early game life a little harder for it.

 

Post-IO sets it's harder to say. They both get absurdly durable with a bunch of set bonuses. But WP just has better across the board coverage, and Invuln's vs psi is more of a pain in the ass than WP vs toxic, especially as WP's regen and +HP together means even its toxic hole is more of a... Weakness, than an actual hole. Double especially in this comparison, when you realize that Dull Pain is going to have its recharge nerfed by psi attacks.

 

Having an end recovery booster also pushes WP up a notch.

 

I'd argue overall WP is actually the better set. I've always felt like WP is what Invuln would have originally been like, if someone's "vision" didn't get in the way during its development.

Edited May 19, 2020 by XaoGarrent