Consistent hang when exiting dam in Faultline, consisten hang and sometimes crash when entering atlas park

[Cailean]

Whenever I try to leave the dam in faultline the screen will go to black and not recover. I have experience the same thing when trying to use the elevator in the faultline hospital (mission elevators work fine) and the trainer in Independence Port. Annoying, but a quick kill/restart gets me where I need to be.

Last night I found I could not log in to a character who was in Atlas park. Or rather, I could log in and the sound would play, then loop, and then the game would hang, or even crash. On the off chance it was a video setting issue I tried changing slider to minimum and entered Atlas with another character. The result is I now have two characters stuck in Atlas.

 

I am using Linux so . . . I guess I'm looking for the handful of rare other odd ducks to tell me their thoughts and maybe an answer will present itself.

I am using Fedora 32 with the KDE Plasma desktop, I use Lutris to manage starting the game in WINE.

The processor is a ryzen threadripper 1950 and the video card is a nvidia 1050 Ti (that is probably an odd combination, but this computer was built for a particular purpose and a powerful video card wasn't needed for that purpose). The video driver version appears to be 450.66.

 

I keep trying to think what do the places I am having issues have in common. I've visited other trainers but only in Independence Port can I recall having issues (I will test this with my next level up). I have only been defeated in Faultline lately, I will test in another hospital in an older zone. I know the new atlas park is a bit different than most zones (I've seen a warehouse burst in to flames then go back to normal and I think someone indicated the zone had been remade such that it could change with events), but I can't figure what could be common to all these things. . .

 

Worst come to worse I should be able to rescue the characters with my old windows machine which I had been using up until this point.

[GM Tock]

I have had zero luck with open source drivers (NVidia's own 450 and the reverse-engineered Nouveau) on Linux when playing City of Heroes.  Does the 440 driver work on your system?

[Cailean]

Well, I downgraded to 440.100. And it is...sort of the same issue? Crash instead of making it in to Atlas and then locking. Leaving the overbrook dam worked, but the video went choppy and then locked.

 

So you also think video issue. And I think the behavior I saw on leaving the dam just now supports that, too. I can deal, more or less, with hanging and needed to restart the client. But not being able to enter a zone is a problem.

 

Not that it would fix the issue but I could swap the 1050 in the linux box with a 1650 in the windows box. I might just to see what difference it makes. I'm planning to retire the windows box entirely someday soon anyhow.

 

EDIT: I turned all the settings for graphics as low as I possibly could and made it in to atlas park. I'm out of time for tonight but now begins the slow 'turn things back on/up one at a time' process to see if I can narrow it down. I wish I'd taken a screenshot of the settings before I started this...

Edited August 31, 2020 by Cailean

[GM Tock]

It's hard to be sure why it's happening.  I doubt it's the in-game settings that are affecting it, I also use a 1050 card and in Ubuntu 20.04, it runs quite well hardware-wise.  There's still the input glitch, and having to run in Windowed mode only... again, Linux gameplay isn't supported by the developer team. 

 

Doesn't mean you can't do it anyway, but filing tickets in support saying Linux play is broken will get a form letter saying "Linux play is unsupported."  It's up to players to find any workarounds.

 

It might be locking up.  It might be when the video halts you're playing blind.  (Your character arrived, but the client video isn't working.)  Both the 1050 and 1650 should have Vulkan support so DXVK support should be enabled in Lutris if they haven't got those turned on (Right click your launcher, Config, DXVK should be a radio button on one of the pages.)  If they are on, I'd see if there any updates pending for Lutris or Wine that might be needed.  You can also try the DXVK library yourself and install the bleeding edge one instead of the one that comes with Lutris.  https://linuxconfig.org/improve-your-wine-gaming-on-linux-with-dxvk

[GM Korvin]

Are you using the Staging, Development, or Stable version of Wine? Additionally, what version is it on?

[Cailean]

5 hours ago, GM Korvin said:

Are you using the Staging, Development, or Stable version of Wine? Additionally, what version is it on?

wine-5.15 staging. Hmm, it is what I got when I used dnf, I hadn't considered type, I don't know the difference between staging, stable and development so I will do a littler reading. I was following one of the install guides for city of heroes on linux when I did it.

 

It turns out settings matter. So far the following are problematic: water effects, ambient occlusion, advanced occlusion, shader quality.

I have water effects off, occlusion off and shaders are set to low with world bump map and I can log in to atlas fine now. Also, no more hang on leaving the dam. I haven't tested hospital elevators (faultline at least) and trainers (independence port at least).

 

At this point I *think* I have all other options at fairly normal levels (as found when using set default) or higher. Curiously, I can get away with better settings even on the problematic options *IF* I log another character in first.

 

Quick edit: some of the settings turn shaders up if you turn them up and don't inform you. I'm assuming those are all low, but I forgot to list them. Shadow Quality when higher than low, Environmental Reflections when on.

 

Another edit: I need to read all the responses carefully first. I did check DXVK (thank you for mentioning it) and it is enabled.

 

At this point I'm pretty satisfied with my workaround. I hope if someone else has my issues this information will help them out. I will be keeping an eye out for updates and I will be checking here, because I would like eventually to have some of these effects back (it's just losing them doesn't break the game for me).

Edited September 2, 2020 by Cailean

[GM Tock]

12 hours ago, Cailean said:

It turns out settings matter. So far the following are problematic: water effects, ambient occlusion, advanced occlusion, shader quality.

I have water effects off, occlusion off and shaders are set to low with world bump map and I can log in to atlas fine now. Also, no more hang on leaving the dam. I haven't tested hospital elevators (faultline at least) and trainers (independence port at least).

Interesting.  My system ran with similar performance in Windows with any of those sliders.  (Not calling you a liar or anything, I believe you.  Just wondering what the variable(s) is/are here.)

[GM Tock]

17 hours ago, GM Korvin said:

Are you using the Staging, Development, or Stable version of Wine? Additionally, what version is it on?

I'm on Wine Stable.  Away from home, it's in the 5.X's.  Maybe this is it?

[Cailean]

1 hour ago, GM Tahquitz said:

Interesting.  My system ran with similar performance in Windows with any of those sliders.  (Not calling you a liar or anything, I believe you.  Just wondering what the variable(s) is/are here.)

 

No worries, I agree it is interesting. I think shader units may be the connecting feature. Water effects, environmental reflections and medium or higher shadows are a problem because they force shaders to high. The occlusion being a problem needs more testing on my part...the thing that does not yet fit the pattern.

 

I started with my settings the same as windows. Other than going to a black screen and appearing to hang on leaving certain locations (overbrook dam, hospital elevator, power upgrade screens at trainers) it was fine. (Annoying, but I was jyst dealing with it.) Atlas Park is special. I have hanging and crashing unless I use these settings. What is *really* weird is that I can get away with somewhat higher setting *if* i log a character in to another zone first.

 

Actually, atlas isnt wholly unique. Ouroboros has crashed the game, but only sometimes. Steel, skyway, faultline, talos, indy port all good.

 

It may be worth trying a different wine release. Or just going to forums related to wine to see if anyone can figure out the connection. I dont know how different gnome vs kde vs kde plasma are for issues, that could even be a connection.

[GM Korvin]

4 hours ago, GM Tahquitz said:

I'm on Wine Stable.  Away from home, it's in the 5.X's.  Maybe this is it?

A different Wine release might indeed help - I've had to keep myself on an older version of Wine Staging to keep the game running smoothly.

[Cailean]

On 9/2/2020 at 12:06 PM, Cailean said:

It may be worth trying a different wine release. Or just going to forums related to wine to see if anyone can figure out the connection. I dont know how different gnome vs kde vs kde plasma are for issues, that could even be a connection.

 

On 9/2/2020 at 3:19 PM, GM Korvin said:

A different Wine release might indeed help - I've had to keep myself on an older version of Wine Staging to keep the game running smoothly.

Indeed. It was an adventure getting to this point (as someone new to linux removing the version I had turned into a comedy of errors - much more so than it probably should have) but I am now on 5.0.2 stable (what dnf gets me when I go for the stable branch), and as an experiment I turned the graphics slider back on and turned the slider to Ultra, overriding all my changes.

 

Atlas park loads, and no issues with exiting the dam in faultline. I do wonder how that bodes for future wine stable releases.

 

Thank you both for your help.

[GM Korvin]

Happy to assist. Glad to hear it all worked out!

[GM Tock]

Yay, stable! 🙂

[Trident2008]

FWIW, no issues like OP had here with Wine 5.7-9 (Lutris build, it has at least some staging stuff) 64 bit NVidia 435 drivers (because 440 and 450 don't really work on this system for some reason...)

[GM Tock]

From what I understand, 435 is under end of life as the last update for that was Dec. 2019.

 

NVidia's proprietary driver for Linux works a touch differently than Windows.  Under Windows, regardless of card or family, you install the current driver.  When a NVidia product hits EOL, Nvidia announces the last Windows driver that card can install successfully, and that's it.  You keep running the game with no further driver updates, but any titles that insist on current drivers have a fit, that's the end.  (City of Heroes may throw a warning message, but it can be suppressed.)

 

NVidia on Linux, however, different story.  Linux driver releases are tied to chip family.  The 435 driver is for all 'legacy' cards at the moment before GTX 600.  The 440 driver works on GTX 600-RTX 3000, and the 450 driver has the same hurdle (the difference being 450 IS open source, so that driver's eventual goal is being the way forward with Wayland and Vulkan, although right now support is sketchy at the moment).  City of Heroes can run on outdated cards... so it shouldn't matter.  But on Linux, XWindows and Wayland cannot use a graphics driver that doesn't update.

 

The reason why there is a difference is because of how Linux handles kernel modules.  Kernel Modules are how Linux's monolithic kernel 'talks' to your hardware.  The kernel gives out generalized instructions, and a Linux OS compiles a set of kernel modules specific to your hardware which turns the generalized commands into signals your hardware drivers can understand for low-level control of actual hardware to happen.  As new kernels keep getting released, the driver kernel modules need to be recompiled to take effect with the new kernel. 

 

With no new updates on the 435 driver, if a Linux kernel change breaks the Nvidia driver kernel module from compiling, that prior kernel version before the break is the last version of the Linux kernel that will run with the video card on closed source drivers.  You can switch to nouveau to keep running Linux on it without replacing the card, but COH play in that driver is unusable in my experience.  There's no set schedule on when a change like this will happen or 'doomsday' to prepare for concerning when it'll happen, just no promises it'll continue to work going forward.  That means 'freezing' your system on Kernel updates, similar to a USB Live Boot drive, and rejecting new software that requires the kernel upgrades. 

 

Basically, you'd be running the system in a fashion similar to Windows 7 or XP right now.  It'll work, but not a good idea security-wise.  And as future software updates require new Linux kernels, harder and harder to maintain.  Easiest route would be to stop updating the system the moment you need to roll back to a prior kernel.  Ubuntu has LTS "point-releases" which makes this slightly easier on you, but the same principle applies.

 

I learned of this with my ancient gaming laptop (Bought in 2009, still works!) which uses the GTX 260M chipset.  Like yours, stuck on 435, no Vulkan support (can't turn on DXVK, but it still works in Wine on Mesa/Open GL only), and likewise, waiting for the end to come.  If your system dual boots into Windows 10, it's less of a doomsday... just means you can't play COH in Linux anymore on that machine.  If this is a desktop, there's another fix but it's not a cheap one: upgrade your video card.  Even out of production ones like the GTX 900/1000 series below the 60s (950/1050 and lower) or the low end 1600's will make it work again without necessarily changing out your power supply along with it.

 

Something to keep in mind.

Edited September 11, 2020 by GM Tahquitz

[Trident2008]

2 hours ago, GM Tahquitz said:

From what I understand, 435 is under end of life as the last update for that was Dec. 2019.

 

NVidia's proprietary driver for Linux works a touch differently than Windows.  Under Windows, regardless of card or family, you install the current driver.  When a NVidia product hits EOL, Nvidia announces the last Windows driver that card can install successfully, and that's it.  You keep running the game with no further driver updates, but any titles that insist on current drivers have a fit, that's the end.  (City of Heroes may throw a warning message, but it can be suppressed.)

 

NVidia on Linux, however, different story.  Linux driver releases are tied to chip family.  The 435 driver is for all 'legacy' cards at the moment before GTX 600.  The 440 driver works on GTX 600-RTX 3000, and the 450 driver has the same hurdle (the difference being 450 IS open source, so that driver's eventual goal is being the way forward with Wayland and Vulkan, although right now support is sketchy at the moment).  City of Heroes can run on outdated cards... so it shouldn't matter.  But on Linux, XWindows and Wayland cannot use a graphics driver that doesn't update.

 

The reason why there is a difference is because of how Linux handles kernel modules.  Kernel Modules are how Linux's monolithic kernel 'talks' to your hardware.  The kernel gives out generalized instructions, and a Linux OS compiles a set of kernel modules specific to your hardware which turns the generalized commands into signals your hardware drivers can understand for low-level control of actual hardware to happen.  As new kernels keep getting released, the driver kernel modules need to be recompiled to take effect with the new kernel. 

 

With no new updates on the 435 driver, if a Linux kernel change breaks the Nvidia driver kernel module from compiling, that prior kernel version before the break is the last version of the Linux kernel that will run with the video card on closed source drivers.  You can switch to nouveau to keep running Linux on it without replacing the card, but COH play in that driver is unusable in my experience.  There's no set schedule on when a change like this will happen or 'doomsday' to prepare for concerning when it'll happen, just no promises it'll continue to work going forward.  That means 'freezing' your system on Kernel updates, similar to a USB Live Boot drive, and rejecting new software that requires the kernel upgrades. 

 

Basically, you'd be running the system in a fashion similar to Windows 7 or XP right now.  It'll work, but not a good idea security-wise.  And as future software updates require new Linux kernels, harder and harder to maintain.  Easiest route would be to stop updating the system the moment you need to roll back to a prior kernel.  Ubuntu has LTS "point-releases" which makes this slightly easier on you, but the same principle applies.

 

I learned of this with my ancient gaming laptop (Bought in 2009, still works!) which uses the GTX 260M chipset.  Like yours, stuck on 435, no Vulkan support (can't turn on DXVK, but it still works in Wine on Mesa/Open GL only), and likewise, waiting for the end to come.  If your system dual boots into Windows 10, it's less of a doomsday... just means you can't play COH in Linux anymore on that machine.  If this is a desktop, there's another fix but it's not a cheap one: upgrade your video card.  Even out of production ones like the GTX 900/1000 series below the 60s (950/1050 and lower) or the low end 1600's will make it work again without necessarily changing out your power supply along with it.

 

Something to keep in mind.

With mine it's not as much of a doomsday, more of my laziness than obsolete vidcard. (and 435 can run Vulkan just fine with the right card, as long as the card supports it, I just checked, Vulkan and DXVK definitely work.)

 

I didn't dig deep into why 450 doesn't work, my guess is that it's just a couple years of doing weird things to Ubuntu LTS... And as you noted, kernel updates for that one will stop coming soon, so I'm going to need to re-install sometime in the next few weeks anyway.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Trident2008

[GM Tock]

What video card are we talking about, then?

[Trident2008]

15 minutes ago, GM Tahquitz said:

What video card are we talking about, then?

GT 740. Just checked Nvidia's page, and it's definitely listed as supported by 450.

 

EDIT: And just in case, it's not 450 not working for CoX or Wine or anything like that it's straight up not working with everything going back to 640x480, including plain X11.

 

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by Trident2008

[GM Tock]

Aaah. 🙂  Then it's just a waiting game to see if things improve or not.

[Trident2008]

1 minute ago, GM Tahquitz said:

Aaah. 🙂  Then it's just a waiting game to see if things improve or not.

Yea, more or less 😄