Sentinel Inherent Idea

[Naraka]

I'm not sure why I end up playing ATs or combos I have less of an understanding of rather than focusing on characters or concepts I like....

 

Not saying I don't like Sentinels, it's moreso not having a specific concept for the AT then hearing in the forums about people complain about the AT so I have to try it for myself then I just get ideas....it happened with Masterminds too and now I've got an extra 4 MMs  between lvl 25 and 45 to get a feel for some of their sets.

 

Anyways, I've started up a couple of Sents.  I first tried recreating a Blaster from live (DP/Fire/Ice) into a Sent but didn't like it for mechanical reasons.  Since then, I tried again with a DP/Ice up to like lvl 28 and haven't touched it in a long while then made an DP/SR and an AR/Fire that's I've been concurrently leveling.

 

Anyways anyways, reposting my suggestion from the Suggestions forum here to see what people in the AT feel about it:

 

Sentinel Inherent Addition - Suggestions & Feedback - Homecoming (homecomingservers.com)

 

Snipped the main "addition", it would be:

 

New Addition

Unsure of name but some I thought could fit were [High Caliber], [Focused Fire] or [Roulette].

Type: Inherent Toggle

Enhancements: None

Cast: None

Recharge: 25 sec

Specifics: Unaffected by recharge reduction

Effects: you no longer build opportunity while toggled on. Any AoEs from your primary set deals double damage (excluding non-nuke rain powers) but affect fewer targets (12 target AoEs >> 8 target AoEs; 8 target AoEs >> 4 target AoEs; 3 target piercing attacks still affect 3 targets).

 

What do you think?

[Naraka]

Been reading through more threads and curious if anyone has suggested just rolling offense and defense opportunity together as a means to improve the function of the AT?

 

So then you wouldn't have to choose between the offense or defense opportunity nor the tier 1 or 2 attacks.

[oldskool]

22 minutes ago, Naraka said:

curious if anyone has suggested just rolling offense and defense opportunity together 

 

Oh hai, you must be new here.  Yeah, that horse has been beaten pretty badly.  

 

Offensive and Defensive Opportunities don't really offer that much to the AT in the post 50 level range (especially so in Incarnate content).  So having both go off at the same time is nice and all but it doesn't move the needle.  I personally don't like the lack of player agency the current design suggests and so a change like that is 'meh' at best.  Still, agency is always nice. 

As to the proposed solution of double damage in any form... it doesn't actually fix anything wrong with the Sentinel.  Instead, it makes new problems.  

Do not recommend, but good use of creativity. 

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, oldskool said:

 

Oh hai, you must be new here.  Yeah, that horse has been beaten pretty badly.  

 

Offensive and Defensive Opportunities don't really offer that much to the AT in the post 50 level range (especially so in Incarnate content).  So having both go off at the same time is nice and all but it doesn't move the needle.  I personally don't like the lack of player agency the current design suggests and so a change like that is 'meh' at best.  Still, agency is always nice. 

As to the proposed solution of double damage in any form... it doesn't actually fix anything wrong with the Sentinel.  Instead, it makes new problems.  

Do not recommend, but good use of creativity. 

 

Well now I'm curious what you perceive the AT's problem is then.

 

From what I could gather, it's mostly a mix of lack of identity and clunky/weak mechanics in their inherent.  Defensive-wise, they seem pretty solid, possibly functioning better than Stalkers in a lot of respects.  Offense-wise, they're squarely behind most of their competition.

 

And appreciate the critique.

[oldskool]

5 hours ago, Naraka said:

 

Well now I'm curious what you perceive the AT's problem is then.

 

#1 problem = the player base itself.  HAHAHAHAAHAH.... sorry...not sorry.

 

I'm kidding a little bit about that a little bit, but only a little bit.  There is a degree of manufactured outrage coupled with legitimate concerns.  The manufactured outrage gets amplified by hyperbole.  Hell, in the suggestions forum someone chided you about how Sentinels have melee range buffs but work at range.  Um, no?  That's just a real clue that the person probably hasn't even played the AT beyond Atlas Park but is more than happy to spout an opinion about the AT.  

Sentinel armor sets aren't reliant on melee range unless you're playing Fiery Aura which still has some PBAoE stuff.  Willpower's Rise to the Challenge variant and Invulnerability's Invincibility variant do not require targets, period.  

Then you get non-contextual belly aching about Blasters doing 60% more damage in all AoE situations because there is a rabid assumption all content in all situations has max aggro caps.  It's bullshit and some folks know it but continue to spout bullshit.  

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, real talk on my complaints: 

 

Identity is not my issue.  That's someone else's but the navel gazing on class identity is tiring.  Every AT has that kind of whining.  

Range limits? No.  Target caps? No.  

 

A perception on player agency being pigeon holed into the T1 and T2 powers?  YES.  I say perception because even this argument is a bit flimsy, but it is a HUGE complaint across the board.  I've never seen so much complaint about with Blasters and Defiance with their T1 and T2 for anti-mez play, but it is there for Sents.  CoX is about player choice to build what you want.  If folks feel they have to take the 1 and 2 power, then that needs to change.  

 

Opportunity is a weak mechanic AND it is clunky.  

Opportunity has this ideal sweet spot of 50% uptime with 50% downtime.  That is from the HC devs.  That is not reality.  You can't touch 50% uptime while leveling.  That just isn't how this works unless you're playing Sonic Blast.  For all others you're going to be wondering what the inherent actually does and then feeling like you can't use it when you want.  That too is a player agency issue.  

Furthermore more, Opportunity's modes don't scale.  So, the timeframe of when they would be the most valuable (low levels) is gated by ridiculous needs of global recharge.  By the time you can achieve the global recharge to have 50% uptime you no longer need the benefits of either effect.  

Opportunity's Offensive side doesn't scale with enhancement.  Sentinel's have low-ish base damage.  This looks weaker and weaker as you gain levels.  Awesome, right?

 

Opportunity's Defensive side has some niche moments to shine, but some Sentinel secondary sets have really good endurance management.  That part of Defensive Opp just becomes a drop in the bucket.  The healing part is not enough to save you from more difficult content.  Again, it can have some niche use, but generally speaking it is not something that turns the tide of battle into your favor, ever.  

 

The best part of Opportunity is the -20% single target resistance debuff that lasts for 15 seconds.  That's it.  The HC devs seem to not care much for that mechanic.  They took it from Tankers and they will likely take it from Sentinels.  

The ranged sets were normalized.  There are some very nice winners in that (so it isn't all bad) but there are losers too.  What kinda stinks here, more than the range/target issue, is that the base damage modifier compounds with a historic anti-range gameplay philosophy from the original devs.  This awful design stance really looks bad with Sentinels because they don't have the ability to offset it like Corruptors or Defenders can with buff/debuff sets.  Blasters can offset any damage gaps with their manipulation sets.  

The HC devs aren't idiots.  They've recognized how bad ranged sets are.  So, what did they do?  They buffed snipe powers.  It was a good change, but it was complete thumb in the eye to Sentinel design.  Sentinel design skips snipes for replacement powers that are slightly weaker but more available by design.  This was back when snipes were a decision to use with a gating behind massive to-hit benefits.  That's gone.  Now Blasters, Defenders, and Corruptors have access to an additional attack that often has pretty good DPA.  It can have great DPA when you still push that to-hit.  Sentinels?  They got the short end of the stick due to that power creep.  

The Invention System.  

The Invention System really shows its heavy melee bias in Sentinels.  Willpower is "amazing" on melee builds.  Well, guess what?  Willpower has a glaring hole in Smashing/Lethal defenses.  Melee builds hemorrhage +S/L/M defense benefits.  You can trip and fall into soft-cap defenses as long as you're not completely braindead making a build on melee.  Sentinels?  Dude, you have to work for that on multiple secondaries.  

Lack of player agency again.  The narrow bandwidth of the IO system makes certain kinds of secondary sets disproportionately strong.  By strong I mean, easy to build for harder content.  High return on low investment.  There are only a handful of sets like that.  These make you less reliant on the utter BS that is the ranged + target AOE cesspool of sets.  Targeted AOE has gotten some love, but it is not enough.  

 

So to sum up....

 

The game's innate bias on damage in melee vs range is really apparent in the AT.  

The IO system exacerbates it.  
The inherent is very weak for what it was conceptualized to do.  
Players feel limited in choice, and they are right.  

Arguments on range and target caps are totally valid for those that feel rubbed the wrong way.  However, I feel like it is the wrong argument to have.  There is so much to fix than those superficial conversation points.  

When I had argued before about fixing the inherent, folks wanted to see be all teamy support.  Some folks have a thinking this would gloss over the 0.95 vs 1.125 damage scalar things.  Except, it won't.  If the Sentinel's inherent contributes 0 to damage. then you'd need the innate damage scale to go upwards beyond what Blasters and Scrappers have to just tread water/keep up.  That is why I have presented criticals before as a solution.  It gives an avenue to artificially inflate damage numbers while not going overboard on the base mechanics.   I know a lot of folks hate it and feel it is uninspired.  I look at it as just math.  Still, I hope the HC devs do something creative that people will like.  I'm going to keep playing my Sentinels either way.  I can handle AVs by myself.  I'm happy enough with that.  

 

Note, I'm focused very much on talking about just the primary power sets.  I didn't even get into a ranting on the reliance of the post 35+ pools and how they warp the entire gameplay of the AT (or lock you into backloaded power gaming).

Edited June 26, 2021 by oldskool
some edits. i know there are typos and it rambles, but F it. it is a friday.

[Naraka]

25 minutes ago, oldskool said:

A perception on player agency being pigeon holed into the T1 and T2 powers?  YES.  I say perception because even this argument is a bit flimsy, but it is a HUGE complaint across the board.  I've never seen so much complaint about with Blasters and Defiance with their T1 and T2 for anti-mez play, but it is there for Sents.  CoX is about player choice to build what you want.  If folks feel they have to take the 1 and 2 power, then that needs to change.  

 

As I'm playing, I can definitely share this being a more annoying issue but not because you have to choose.

 

I'm a passive-RPer so power choice has various meanings to me.  Skipping a majority of powers in a set, to me, is like a mechanic that has a bunch of expensive power tools...but doesn't even have a simple flat-edge for measuring or a pair of scissors to cut through some annoying material you're trying to break down to remove.  It's not a big deal for me to take the tier 1 and/or 2 powers but when fighting, it could get annoying keeping them both handy or available when opportunity happens.

 

33 minutes ago, oldskool said:

 

Opportunity is a weak mechanic AND it is clunky.  

Opportunity has this ideal sweet spot of 50% uptime with 50% downtime.  That is from the HC devs.  That is not reality.  You can't touch 50% uptime while leveling.  That just isn't how this works unless you're playing Sonic Blast.  For all others you're going to be wondering what the inherent actually does and then feeling like you can't use it when you want.  That too is a player agency issue.  

Furthermore more, Opportunity's modes don't scale.  So, the timeframe of when they would be the most valuable (low levels) is gated by ridiculous needs of global recharge.  By the time you can achieve the global recharge to have 50% uptime you no longer need the benefits of either effect.  

Opportunity's Offensive side doesn't scale with enhancement.  Sentinel's have low-ish base damage.  This looks weaker and weaker as you gain levels.  Awesome, right?

 

Opportunity's Defensive side has some niche moments to shine, but some Sentinel secondary sets have really good endurance management.  That part of Defensive Opp just becomes a drop in the bucket.  The healing part is not enough to save you from more difficult content.  Again, it can have some niche use, but generally speaking it is not something that turns the tide of battle into your favor, ever.  

 

 

I've only ever gotten to the lower 30s on a Sent and currently working on a couple, one of which just hit 24 and I don't believe I've ever really benefitted from defensive opportunity.

 

If they want to help scale defensive opportunity, maybe they should have a "bonus" for some of your armor powers, like adding stacking debuff resistance to slows on Focused Senses, a slight movement buff if you hit on Agile, a small stacking smashing/lethal res buff on Practiced Brawler etc.  I suppose, to implement it, your defense opportunity would just give you "defense flags" and those flags would enable effects built into your armor powers.  This could then be scalable by power choice as well as flavored and balanced to the armor set.

 

40 minutes ago, oldskool said:

 

The best part of Opportunity is the -20% single target resistance debuff that lasts for 15 seconds.  That's it.  The HC devs seem to not care much for that mechanic.  They took it from Tankers and they will likely take it from Sentinels.  

 

I am actually not a fan of the -res portion, primarily because it's few and far between that it's every decently utilized.  It's only ever on the first target and the time it takes to build up to use it again is unintuitive....if I'm understanding the mechanic to its fullest, it's only the 1st target you activate the opportunity mode that takes the largest debuff, right?  A way to counteract this might be utilizing the grant powers system where you grant the power to the target that then debuffs itself but then, upon defeat, it "recharges" the debuff opportunity so you can then shift that effect to a new target while an opportunity mode is active.

 

45 minutes ago, oldskool said:

The ranged sets were normalized.  There are some very nice winners in that (so it isn't all bad) but there are losers too.  What kinda stinks here, more than the range/target issue, is that the base damage modifier compounds with a historic anti-range gameplay philosophy from the original devs.  This awful design stance really looks bad with Sentinels because they don't have the ability to offset it like Corruptors or Defenders can with buff/debuff sets.  Blasters can offset any damage gaps with their manipulation sets.  

The HC devs aren't idiots.  They've recognized how bad ranged sets are.  So, what did they do?  They buffed snipe powers.  It was a good change, but it was complete thumb in the eye to Sentinel design.  Sentinel design skips snipes for replacement powers that are slightly weaker but more available by design.  This was back when snipes were a decision to use with a gating behind massive to-hit benefits.  That's gone.  Now Blasters, Defenders, and Corruptors have access to an additional attack that often has pretty good DPA.  It can have great DPA when you still push that to-hit.  Sentinels?  They got the short end of the stick due to that power creep.  

 

 

I don't have an intricate understanding about how the blast sets differ from the Blaster/support ATs besides the snipes.

 

That being said, I am *NOT* a fan of the snipe changes.  It screwed up the balance quite a bit.  Not specifically for blast sets as a whole but rather intra-powerset balance for sets that don't have snipes.  I prefer the live update to snipes because it helped emphasize ToHit buffs and also gave Defenders an edge in certain cases so they weren't so far behind.  Now?  I am just not a fan...and worse yet, the only way to stick to my guns is to not take a snipe since there is no way to avoid the fast snipe while in combat.

 

That being said, I have no solution, suggestion or further thoughts on Sent equivalent of Snipes.

 

51 minutes ago, oldskool said:

The Invention System.  
 

 

I am not the person to speak on this.  I may only moderately use the IO system with uniques, procs, frankenslotted and the occasional stacked bonuses but I don't often build for capped [insert stat], even on high-end builds.  Usually, hovering around 32% def is my target or a round 25% res or just enough +rech to get me around slotted rech without actually slotting for recharge.

 

The IO system, while cool and interesting, is a broken mess and I just don't mess with it.  Also, same with the incarnate system.  For the most part, my gameplay 75% hovers in the lvl 1-45 range.

 

That all said, I do enjoy coming up with ideas but I tend to have a bias to buck the meta.  The meta tends to push for bigger, faster, more powerful AoE and my suggestion was kinda 1-out-of-3 to give a benefit at a cost.

[Sunsette]

5 hours ago, oldskool said:

Hell, in the suggestions forum someone chided you about how Sentinels have melee range buffs but work at range. 

 

I am being charitable and assuming they skipped some words because even the phrase it shows up in is awkward but it has literally been bothering me the entire day that I have no idea what they were talking about.

 

5 hours ago, oldskool said:

Identity is not my issue.  That's someone else's but the navel gazing on class identity is tiring.  Every AT has that kind of whining.  

Feeling a little bit called out! But: Identity *is* a consistent issue in CoX. Every AT has it because every AT except MMs and to a lesser extent Doms and HC Blasters has direct competition in what it does. Identity is a big part of why Blaster has received the buffs it has gotten; I think the choice to revamp snipes especially has been pretty helpful in IDing Blasters firmly as all-range, vigorous combatants. So identity helps shape the direction repairs need to go in, and it's especially important when you're dealing with people who are prone to being upset about the idea of a ~tankmage~ every 30 seconds.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Sunsette

[oldskool]

5 hours ago, Sunsette said:

Feeling a little bit called out! 

 

Nah, not calling you out.  If I really felt a need to critique something you wrote, I'd do so directly, PM you, or both.  In retrospect, I can see why you would feel that way given your post with the title it has, but honestly it wasn't on my mind.  Quite frankly, that post has some well thought considerations in it and whatever your subjective vision of the AT's identity is wasn't anything that "triggered" me.  I could have chosen my words a bit better, but this really isn't about you.  Sentinel identity arguments have been a dime a dozen for the past few years. 

 

5 hours ago, Sunsette said:

But: Identity *is* a consistent issue in CoX. Every AT has it because every AT except MMs and to a lesser extent Doms and HC Blasters has direct competition in what it does.

 

I do not disagree that the perception and subjectivity of identity is an issue for some players.  That isn't what I find tiring about the argument.  The tiresome parts are the presentation.  

 

The degree to which the argument forms on Sentinels is such that it is often times merely a strawman of envy projection (this AT is not unique here either).  I feel there are legitimate concerns on the performance of the AT.  I may not always agree to the degree of those concerns, but I recognize they exist.  However, more often than not the concept of "identity" is nothing more than a childish argument about how my vanilla ice cream isn't some other kids chocolate ice cream.  Do note here that the merits of ice cream or their subjective flavor profiles aren't actually being discussed.  I just don't have what that other person has and it pisses me off.  *That's* 99% of the "identity" argument that pops up in each forum.  

The overlap issue has been there ever since CoV was allowed to co-exist with CoH.  Also, people complain about MM's not having an identity.  It is a topic on the Internet.  People complain out everything.  Sometimes there are well constructed ideas, but most of the time it is not that constructive.  

 

5 hours ago, Sunsette said:

Identity is a big part of why Blaster has received the buffs it has gotten...

 

Maybe.  However, the snipe changes help far more than just the Blaster AT.  The Blaster AT was in a pretty good place for damage and defense already.  They really didn't need extra damage, but they got it.  To me, that is more collateral damage for a benefit increase to Corruptors, Defenders, Dominators, and any other AT with access to a snipe.  The whole "all-range" idea of the Blaster has always been a subjective opinion of the AT.  It is a widely popular one, but it wasn't the fundamental design goal.  

 

I'm not saying playing a Blaster at pure range is wrong.  However, there is more to that AT than that.  

The Sentinel arguments on identity are polar opposite though most of the time.  These arguments often begin with a position that the Sentinel *is* a support AT.  It is a support AT because its inherent can mark a target for 15 seconds with one debuff type.  Part of this argument also lies in subjective representation of damage metrics that conflict with actual reality.  People feel like they do Defender-level damage and state it as fact with zero context behind it.  This further drives the logic behind the lacking Sentinel "identity".  

I hope folks can forgive me for finding such a narrow-minded view of the AT as tiresome.  The Scrapper is not a premier damage AT because it has a baseline critical chance.  It is good at what it is for a range of reasons.  The criticals in the inherent 100% play a role here, but that isn't the entire story.  

 

The SoA's get thrown around a lot too but most of the time folks find it totally fair to compare fully realized powers to the Sentinel's inherent.  Venom Grenade is a better debuff.  Well no kidding; it is a fully upgradeable power.   SoA's grant defense buffs.  You don't say?  It's almost like they have an entire assortment of powers to do that.   Do you see how ridiculous this train of thought gets?  

People do not see Blasters as being great for damage because Defiance.  No, it is a host of reasons that involve basic damage scalars and then power combinations that facilitate builds.  

 

People do not argue identity of Controllers and Dominators because of their inherent powers (well, they do, but it isn't really the point).  They compare the need for control itself.  The Dominator can do damage AND control.  The Controller has a watered down support set.  The navel gazing of the Controller is often around personal damage because the meta is hyper focused on personal damage.  It is easy to overlook the value of force multiplication.  Is there some merit in the Controller vs Dominator debate?  Sure, but that nuance is often ignored for some other superficial facet that exists in the game.  

 

Anyway, It is the Sentinel who's entire identity is distilled into just Opportunity and it is Opportunity that defines them as whatever role the presenter wants.  That role is often to make the AT look worse (generally not on purpose, but people are often terrible at debate) in order to build an argument that doesn't actually exist.  I'd also like to state that, I understand why people do this.  Opportunity is not just a flashing target under enemies.  It is a huge flashing target of why the AT itself has problems.  So, it is reasonable that the inherent becomes a focal point on why the AT sits in the back seat of the struggle bus.  My stance is that the argumentation often misses the forest for the trees though.  

 

That said, do I think there is merit in some identity discussion?  Yes, I actually do.  I know my original commentary doesn't appear that way, but I do get it.  However, I do not feel the issue with the Sentinel's identity is as bad as it is often presented.  I think the Sentinel already has an identity.   It is a mostly ranged damage dealing AT.  Yes, it has overlap with the Blaster and Corruptor in that role.  Do I think the Sentinel is fully realized and successful in that identity?  No, I don't.  Do I think it needs an entirely new identity?  No, I don't.  Let's fix the basics first without completely tossing the whole thing out.  Also, there is room for another niche style damage dealer.  There are people that disagree, and they are entitled to that.  It is OK to feel there is no reason to play a Sentinel.  They don't have to play it at all.  However, I don't see justification for those kinds of opinions to completely re-write characters I'm playing.  Anyway, I'll stop because this topic makes me ramble and I'll likely misrepresent some of my thoughts further. 
 

Edited June 26, 2021 by oldskool

[Sunsette]

For clarity: Blaster Snipe's unique range increase is what I'm talking about here. Blasters can (and still should) blap and it's an effective choice for them, but blasters can uniquely operate at farther range than any other AT, by a lot (50%, in fact, which is absolutely game-changing for cone-heavy sets). It's such a huge element of convenience in a lot of points that no one else can actually compete with if you choose to go the ranged route. You don't have to play to that strength, but it is a strength uniquely theirs.

 

That, to me, is the core of the identity issues we have to be looking at; there needs to be compelling use-case scenarios where the Sentinel is just, 9/10 times, the most attractive looking option to anyone pondering a concept. I wouldn't consider the Sentinel a support AT in any meaningful respect, Damage with minor support, OK, sure; support AT, no.

 

I do think it's significant, however, that you're comparing the Sentinel Inherent only to the old ATs; the post-CoV archetypes (that is to say, half of them) are mostly built around their inherents in conjunction with their powersets. The CoH archetypes had their inherent slapped on in retrospect (literally doing nothing for the longest time in the case of the Tanker). At least the tanker's was bolted onto something that was in fact mechanically unique about the AT; critical hit might be the most boring (effective! but boring) inherent ever. A common reaction is "wait, can't everyone critical hit?"

 

Now, on the other hand, imagine a Brute without fury; a Dominator without Domination; a Corruptor without Scourge; a Stalker without Assassination.  Bad, right? Because those are all literally nerfed forms of a hero AT without their inherent.

 

by its design, the Sentinel naturally lends itself to comparison with these ATs that either have active inherents or at least active *management* of their inherents; no Defender is going to try to get their party members offed because they didn't want to slot more EndMod and EndRedux. Your damage isn't great, your range isn't great, but hey there's a meter you're building up to, you unleash the meter, wow there's even a special graphic on the enemy and... that was kinda underwhelming.

 

Sentinel gets its identity distilled into Opportunity because it is mechanically designed in a way that suggests you should care about Opportunity a lot, but best play right now is to treat it more like defiance or critical hit: "gee, I guess that was nice?" People are missing the point of the AT, yes, but that's the fault of the design.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Sunsette

[oldskool]

58 minutes ago, Sunsette said:

I do think it's significant, however, that you're comparing the Sentinel Inherent only to the old ATs; the post-CoV archetypes (that is to say, half of them) are mostly built around their inherents in conjunction with their powersets. The CoH archetypes had their inherent slapped on in retrospect (literally doing nothing for the longest time in the case of the Tanker). At least the tanker's was bolted onto something that was in fact mechanically unique about the AT; critical hit might be the most boring (effective! but boring) inherent ever. A common reaction is "wait, can't everyone critical hit?"

 

I feel this is talking past my points to focus on something I'm not arguing.  I'm not comparing the Sentinel inherent to the old ATs in the vacuum you suggest I am.  I'm saying that the inherent of other ATs is not necessarily the focal part of the argument on identity discussions.  However, for the Sentinel is the often the *only* focus and that focus can be stated to a hyperbolic degree.  Let's look at it another way.  Inherent powers are so taken for granted elsewhere that they are not a discussion topic.  The inherent in the Sentinel is new, as is the whole AT, and so it gets unfortunate side comparisons.  Sometimes, the comparisons are warranted, but a lot of the time they are not.  

 

The commentary here dovetails into some of your other points.  I hope you understand, I agree with you.  I think we're arguing similar things but expressing it differently.  

 

1 hour ago, Sunsette said:

That, to me, is the core of the identity issues we have to be looking at; there needs to be compelling use-case scenarios where the Sentinel is just, 9/10 times, the most attractive looking option to anyone pondering a concept. I wouldn't consider the Sentinel a support AT in any meaningful respect, Damage with minor support, OK, sure; support AT, no.

 

There are two different arguments that can exist here.  Your argument is about concept.  I don't see this as a problem right now.  We can agree to disagree on that.  This doesn't mean I don't think you have a point or that your thoughts aren't valid.  They are.  They just aren't on the same level of importance to me right now.  

 

OK, the other side to this train of thought is one of effectiveness.  That is the majority argument when it comes to the Sentinel.  Your conceptual "9/10 times, the most attractive looking option" gets appended with "to play for effectiveness" or even worse "to be invited to content, at all".  It is the latter arguments that spiral out of control.  

I see your conceptualization of identity as pretty innocent.  I see the other conceptualization of identity as invasive because it often is paired with total re-writes to characters I actively play.  What makes that even worse is these arguments come from people that do not play the AT or even have an intent to play it (buff or not).  They want others to conform to their whims, and F all if you don't like it.  

[Sunsette]

I agree we're mostly in agreement. Just briefly picking at some minor points.

[Naraka]

Having gotten a couple Sents past nuke levels, it feels pretty solid. I'm sure, once they get into the late levels and endgame, things change for the worse but I typically don't play much part 44. 

 

One of my builds only uses frankenslotting and uniques while the other uses proc'ed attacks. Thinking about the hypothetical of an "AoE concentrated" toggle makes me feel it would be a viable change. In the grand scheme of things, you're increasing your personal kill count and, depending on if they back up the target cap a bit, it would feel like more of a buff in offense with very little sacrifice.

 

I think the only downfall would be in the realm of procs... In that respect, you want to hit as many targets as possible to increase the number of times those procs go off. Hitting fewer targets, even if it's only 2 targets less than current, could be a huge hit to damage. On that front, I concede BUT...I feel procs are and should be nerfed in some way. I have another thread in mind for that...