VEAT costuming requests

[Greycat]

All right, so I'm not the biggest fan of VEATs, I know. I dislike the storyline and the forced respec at 24. The first I handle by just not doing it, the second... well, grit teeth and deal, sometimes multiple times since you have to do it with each build on multiple builds. But they occasionally fit concepts I have in mind for characters.

 

One of the frustrating things I'd love to see updated/changed/tweaked, though, deals with the tailor.

 

There are a few issues.

 

1. The first costume slot *has* to be Arachnos themed.

Of all the VEATs I have, only... maybe two at most could say they have any connection to Arachnos. However, the first costume slot MUST be Arachnos themed. Whether you want it to be or not. I'd love to be able to override this and not have that slot wasted, even if it has to be done after creation. (What can I say. RPer. I earn that Clothes Horse badge.)

 

2. The "black figure" blank on all the other slots is ... really kind of annoying.

The first issue leads into the second. Even if you pick a face on helmet-less VEATs, it ignores it and gives a generic, all black figure for *every other* costume slot.  (At least once you put something in the first slot, the earned costumes after that copy it.) Having it at *least* copy body, face and skin color would be nice. And/or having an option to "copy to other slots." (Yes, I know, costume changes under 10 are free, save/load into others. Still annoying.)

 

3. Arachnos parts can only be used in the first slot.

Probably tied to the first-slot weirdness anyway, but it would be nice if, since you're a VEAT anyway, you could use the parts on *other* costumes, too. Yes, some pieces are kinda-sorta close (such as under "special helms" and the ... thorns? belt,) but if you want to go full-on Arachnos - or the parts just look useful for other ideas - you can't use them anywhere but as part of the full on first VEAT slot.

 

Game breaking? No. It's costuming. But these most *definitely* affect my enjoyment of VEATs when I *do* play them, so... yeah. I'd love to see some of this tweaked.

[Nerva]

Now, just to preface, I'm not saying this to refute your idea, but explain the reasons for these things being how they stand.  Because there are actual reasons!

 

VEATs, regardless of what your concept for the character is, were meant to be more closely integrated with the lore than any other Archetype, even the HEATs.  This is why they have an entire unique story arc explaining (starting with a single mission from Alan Desslock in Mercy) whose whole purpose is explaining how an ostensibly-normal Arachnos soldier or widow (you) managed to get into Project Destiny and rise above their peers by guile and sheer effort.

 

This is why you have the Arachnos uniform in your first costume slot; you're not a conventional villain character, at least at first - you're a uniformed mook, and that costume slot is your uniform.  It isn't until Sharkhead (and access to the tailor there) that you've broken away from the Arachnos heirarchy enough that you can really start setting yourself apart from the rank-and-file Arachnos and develop your own costume.  But by that same token, you also have less access to the Arachnos heirarchy and the resources it provides.  Not no access (every villain has access to basic Arachnos services), not minimal access (you know the system from being inside of it at one point, you can get things a little easier than most villains), but definitely not as much access as you would've had if you'd just toed the line and rose through Arachnos's ranks the conventional way.  This is why you can't really use Arachnos parts outside of the Arachnos uniform - you don't have access to those bits anymore.  You want to be a Destined One?  Fine, you'll have to make do with the resources available to all Destined Ones, plus whatever you can finagle using your connections and know-how from your time as a goon.

 

Keep in mind, those extra costume slots you start the game with?  Yeah, on Live you wouldn't have had those unless you bought them.  Your uniform would've literally been your only costume slot until you earned the second one by levelling or story rewards.  Point being, it's supposed to be a bit chafing to have limited options on your first costume slot - Arachnos doesn't let the rank-and-file modify their uniform completely as they please.  You're supposed to have a few options there that you don't have on the rest - it's your uniform from when you were an Arachnos mook, and Arachnos mooks have parts most villains don't have access to.

 

Keep in mind that your Arachnos uniform is actually an extra costume slot - over and above any other costumes you may have.  If you get all the costume slots available to a VEAT, then the game doesn't penalize you for having that extra Arachnos-specific uniform.  Since we also start with all the purchaseable costume slots from Live, you could just ignore the Arachnos uniform and treat the first regular costume you have as your character's default.  Free customizations below level 10 and all.  So, if you really want to play a VEAT your way, then go ahead, the game's not stopping you from playing the concept you want.  But the game assumes that if you're playing a VEAT, you're wanting to play the concept it has behind VEATs - that of an Arachnos goon who broke away from the organization and hijacked Recluse's Project Destiny as a fast route to real power.

 

So TL;DR - Epic Archetypes are different from the others.  With regular Archetypes, your storyline is entirely your creation, and the game has to keep your involvement in the story arcs it offers fairly generic as a result.  Some of the later and more cleverly-written story arcs will give you different dialogue options based on assumptions that can be made from your origin, or archetype, or rarely powersets, but these rarely effect the outcome of the arc.  Epic Archetypes were supposed to tie your character to the lore of the game more closely than other archetypes, which means they're mechanically tied to the storyline surrounding the archetype.  This is why Kheldian HEATs cause Quantum enemies to spawn, and Arachnos VEATs have limited costuming options and underwhelming powersets at first.

[Greycat]

... you really don't know who you're replying to if you think you have to explain epics, do you. ;)

 

Just so you see why I find this funny:

http://web.archive.org/web/20120907080230/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=263335

http://web.archive.org/web/20120905121326/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114391

http://web.archive.org/web/20120907022352/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=239822

 

... that's all me. I'm *quite* aware of how tied Epic ATs are supposed to be to bits of lore. :)

 

However, lighthearted poking aside, I do have to address this:

 

2 hours ago, Nerva said:

Keep in mind that your Arachnos uniform is actually an extra costume slot - over and above any other costumes you may have.  If you get all the costume slots available to a VEAT, then the game doesn't penalize you for having that extra Arachnos-specific uniform.

 

Regular AT or Kheld, you have ten slots you can do whatever you want with.

VEAT, the first slot *must* be the Arachnos costume slot. You don't get an extra.  (And yes, I'm quite aware of how it was on live, thanks, started in issue 3.)

 

Also:

 

2 hours ago, Nerva said:

But the game assumes that if you're playing a VEAT, you're wanting to play the concept it has behind VEATs - that of an Arachnos goon who broke away from the organization and hijacked Recluse's Project Destiny as a fast route to real power.

 

... would be even *more* reason to be able to dump the Arachnos costume from the listing, if desired.

[Nerva]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

... you really don't know who you're replying to if you think you have to explain epics, do you. 😉

 

Just so you see why I find this funny:

http://web.archive.org/web/20120907080230/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=263335

http://web.archive.org/web/20120905121326/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114391

http://web.archive.org/web/20120907022352/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=239822

 

... that's all me. I'm *quite* aware of how tied Epic ATs are supposed to be to bits of lore. :)

 

However, lighthearted poking aside, I do have to address this:

 

...

Regular AT or Kheld, you have ten slots you can do whatever you want with.

VEAT, the first slot *must* be the Arachnos costume slot. You don't get an extra.  (And yes, I'm quite aware of how it was on live, thanks, started in issue 3.)

 

I don't know you, dude.  Nor did I participate back on the official boards back when I played.  Your history there doesn't matter to me, and honestly, I don't really care what your credentials are.  You want to talk points and counterpoints?  Fine.  But don't think you can just scare me with credentials.  Don't act like because you're some ur-veteran that I have nothing I can teach you, because I'll prove that wrong right now.

 

As it stands, you're you're coming into this thread basically asking for a mechanic that makes VEATs what they are to be removed; for their first costume slot to become generic, and for the unique parts on it to be available on other costumes. You're also demonstrating an ignorance of the way VEATs work; one I don't blame you for, since not everyone realizes it.  VEATs have 11 costume slots: one extra costume slot over and above what other archetypes get, thanks to a mission from Brick Johnson in Port Oaks.  This costume slot doesn't appear in the costume change window.  You can only change to it via /cc commands.  My point stands - you are not losing out on a costume slot just because you're a VEAT, you still have 10 and you also have your uniform slot.

In short, yes, you do get an extra.  It's just currently in need of support from the game interface.

 

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

... would be even *more* reason to be able to dump the Arachnos costume from the listing, if desired.

 

Ever delved into Arachnos philosophy?  Arachnos is essentially organized Social Darwinists.  Rules are made to be broken, so long as you can either endure or avoid the consequences of breaking them, or change the rules to make what you're doing okay.  This includes replacing leadership.  The powerful only stay in power as long as nobody challenges them and wins.  In theory, someone powerful enough could join Arachnos, walk right up to Mako while he's in mid-conversation with Lord Recluse and choke him lifeless right then and there and be offered a job as Mako's replacement.  If you win, you were powerful or cunning enough to deserve to win.  If you lose, you were weak or dull enough to deserve to lose.

 

Your first mission from Alan Desslock, the one that makes you a Destined One?  Involves changing the list of Destined Ones to include your name, and then clearing out any witnesses.  Nobody knows you've broken ranks with Arachnos just yet.  By the time anyone figures it out, you've already made a bit of a name for yourself as a Destined One, and as such, Lord Recluse is eager to see where you take this, just like with all the other listees.  In fact, you discover later in the story that changing the list like that wasn't subverting the system - you were accidentally correcting the list.  By having the ambition to grab the list of Destined Ones and put your name on it, you made a destiny for yourself the equal of any of theirs.

 

So hey, good job.  You put yourself into the Destined One program by sheer cunning, tenacity, and force of will.  No penalty; you might not be directly part of Arachnos anymore, but the options available to you beggar what you had previously.

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Nerva
Corrections and clarifications, including a better link.

[Greycat]

4 hours ago, Nerva said:

 

I don't know you, dude.  Nor did I participate back on the official boards back when I played.  Your history there doesn't matter to me, and honestly, I don't really care what your credentials are.  You want to talk points and counterpoints?  Fine.  But don't think you can just scare me with credentials.  Don't act like because you're some ur-veteran that I have nothing I can teach you, because I'll prove that wrong right now.

 

 

Calm down. See the  😉 at the end? Granted the forum left it in text form instead of converting into a little yellow face like it did there, but it's still there.  It's an indication I'm kidding around. Same with the direct reference to "lighthearted poking" at the end. I put that in deliberately in an effort to make it *even clearer* that it should be found funny, or at least mildly facepalm worthy.  I'm not trying to "scare" you with anything, so untwist your undies. I sent you links because you spent *so* much time explaining what an Epic AT was to someone who's *very* aware of them, I thought you might find it amusing.

 

You *do* have a sense of humor somewhere, right?

 

4 hours ago, Nerva said:

As it stands, you're you're coming into this thread basically asking for a mechanic that makes VEATs what they are to be removed;

 

A costume slot does not "make VEATs what they are." The branching paths, the mixed powersets, even the fairly miserable arcs they get make them what they are. 

 

And, frankly, as a counterpoint? It can be argued that the shapeshifting "makes Khelds what they are," yet people skip those and play as, say, angels (popular for quite some time with PBs due to inherent flight and light-looking powers.) This is no different - heck, it's even LESS impactful since you're not skipping useful powers!

 

As far as your last few paragraphs? They don't really counter the argument. Sure, it works... if you want to stick right along with the storyline... sort of. But, funny thing, players don't have to. Most of my VEATs don't because I can't stand the storyline. Which frankly means yes, I should have the choice to dump that costume.

 

IF being "in costume" actually had a benefit - essentially stealth among rank-and-file Arachnos, for instance, since you look just like one of them, until - say - 30-35 when word gets out you've jumped ship and it's open season or something? I wouldn't be making this argument at all. It would have a purpose. (Yes, it'd also cause all sorts of issues, especially with side switching, but that didn't exist at the time. ) 

[Nerva]

4 hours ago, Greycat said:

A costume slot does not "make VEATs what they are." The branching paths, the mixed powersets, even the fairly miserable arcs they get make them what they are. 

A unique costume, one that has parts not available to the rest of the game, and inbuilt theming enforced is something that occurs in no other AT.  Further I said it was a mechanic, not the mechanic.  There's a lot of things that make an Epic AT an Epic AT, and I never insinuated that there was just one, or even that it was just this one.

 

4 hours ago, Greycat said:

And, frankly, as a counterpoint? It can be argued that the shapeshifting "makes Khelds what they are," yet people skip those and play as, say, angels (popular for quite some time with PBs due to inherent flight and light-looking powers.) This is no different - heck, it's even LESS impactful since you're not skipping useful powers!

That, however, is a player option.  You're not taking away a unique mechanic, you're simply choosing to not use it.

 

Not taking shapeshift powers on khelds and playing them purely humanform would be akin to you deciding not to use the secondary powersets of Arachnos AT promotions, or making an early run to a tailor to customize a costume outside of your Arachnos uniform and then never using the uniform again.  The ignored aspects are still there, they're still part of the interfaces, but you've just chosen to ignore them completely.  And that is perfectly fine.

 

What you're asking would strip that costume slot of everything that makes it different from every other costume slot, essentially removing the Arachnos Uniform slot from VEATs and from the game.
 

4 hours ago, Greycat said:

As far as your last few paragraphs? They don't really counter the argument. Sure, it works... if you want to stick right along with the storyline... sort of. But, funny thing, players don't have to. Most of my VEATs don't because I can't stand the storyline. Which frankly means yes, I should have the choice to dump that costume.

The last three paragraphs explain why doing what you did, as a member of Arachnos, wouldn't necessitate the dumping of the uniform, according to the storyline written for the AT.  Honestly they could've done more with it, such as missions where you had to wear that uniform to blend in with other Arachnos, kinda like how the Brick Johnson mission implies that you should look like a hero while going undercover as one, hence why you're given that new costume slot for that purpose.  But just because there hasn't been more done with it doesn't make it worthless.  That costume, to my knowledge, still has flags that no other costume does, which missions can then read and utilize.  If I'm not mistaken there, then there's things that could be done with it.

 

And if you want to 'dump the costume' that's fine.  Go to a tailor, customize your second slot, save it, and repeat that with each empty slot afterward.  Then never use the Arachnos uniform slot again and avoid any future missions that might switch you to it, if they ever come to exist.  The only 'penalty' is seeing that costume slot continue to exist on your costume change menu, which can be avoided outside of tailors by using /cc commands, and even that could be fixed with an update to the costume menu, which is already necessary thanks to the VEATs' 11 costumes.  Had you come asking for, say, the ability to see all 11 VEAT costumes in the costume menu, and the ability to reorganize or hide certain costume slots from view, I wouldn't be saying a damn thing about this.  Hiding a feature you don't use or want to use is fine.  Removing it as a feature because you don't like its existence and don't want to use it vehemently isn't.

Now, as for how I responded to you?  If there's one thing I hate, it's for people to wield their history on a board or within a community against me.  You come to me trying to insinuate that you somehow know better simply because of your age or previous contributions, and then fail to argue your points?  That ticks me right off.  It's the worst kind of elitism and it's something I personally can't tolerate.  So you wrote some guides on the epic ATs back on the original boards.  Good on you, I hope they helped people.  But it didn't need to be brought up, especially not at the beginning of your post, as though framing the entire interaction.

 

It didn't feel like a joke, or even lighthearted ribbing.  It felt like you were trying to use your history in the community to snub me or imply that I didn't know what I was talking about.  I've been with this game as long as you, I just didn't participate on the official boards because I was a very insular person back then.  And honestly?  I hate having to even bring that up, because I shouldn't have to justify myself or my reasons for responding to someone.  Your credentials shouldn't matter and neither should mine in a community of what are allegedly peers!

 

So, now that that is out in the open, I'm done with this thread.

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Nerva
Freakin' data vampires ate my edits