Origin Arc Revamping

[UltraAlt]

I've been slowly working on my Origin Quest exploring the origin arcs.

 

I'm still completing the level 15-19 contacts. So the information I'm providing is based on content to this point.

 

Avoid Outleveling of contacts while still allowing challenging gameplay

Outleveling Origin Contacts and the enemies granted from them is a real issue. I find myself having to play missions on flat settings in order to avoid outleveling contacts and still often find the need to lock my xp. Also, if you can get the book (so that you won't outlevel the contact), you will often find yourself in missions that are well below being able to be set to make the missions any kind of challenge at all (which makes them tedious to me).

I'm not sure how the best way is to handle it as this could easily be done in a heavy-handed way that might spoil some players' immersion and need to constantly progress xp/level-wise. I'm also not sure how much the game could handle automating it.

Somehow the contact would need to give the option to lock xp at their top level until their arc is completed. Could the XP-lock be initiated directly by interaction with a contact? Could it be set to kick in only when the player reaches the contact's max level? (If so, then the contact could automatically turn back on XP generation when their arc is completed).  Could the contact prompt the player each time they are "contacted" to advise them of their (the contact's) max level and that the player should go into the options menu and lock their xp before/at the max level so that they don't outlevel the arc?

Even running on flat difficulty, my characters are locking their xp. If it wasn't for the work as a project and trying to get through it with some urgency (obviously, I'm not leaning into it), then set my difficulty higher and level lock at the contact's max level because I enjoy fighting at a higher difficulty level.

How useful would this be to other players? The Ding is strong, and not leveling while waiting for the end of an arc could be annoying to many players. I understand that.

 

An alternative to street hunting

It has become clear how tedious the hunt missions have become.

Not simply because they are hunts ... and not only because my characters are sent to defeat foes that are all grey in the area that I'm sent to hunt them ... the worst part is that some of the zones that I'm sent to hunt the targets in don't even have that type of foe in them any longer. Sure, when this happens, I can go to another zone to fight them and that completes the mission, but the whole point of being directed somewhere to hunt should be to fight enemies of a relevant level.

At the same time, getting sent to Perez Park to fight large mobs while soloing at level 10-14 was a nice challenge. I think this is, however, above what most players would want to deal with.

My thought on how to fix this is to route into the scanner/newspaper system mechanic. Use that mechanic to pull a mission in a level relevant zone with the type of villain that needs to be battled and possibly even pull a mission type that is relevant. No need to change the content. The Contact bookends the mission with the reason for being sent and the revelation of whatever information gained when the character returns to/calls the contact.

 

Provide an AV/EB battle for the end of all the level 15-19 Origin Arcs

Some of the 15-19 Origin arcs have AVs to fight others do not. Mutation getting to fight Dr Vazhilok is great. (I did end up fighting them as an EB rather than as an AV).

I think all the arcs originally had an AV to fight, but zones changed and the Origin Arcs were ignored at the time.

... which leads to ...

 

Fix the broken arcs

Because of game/zone changes some of the origin arcs in the level 15-19 range were broken and the DEVs never bothered with fixing them. It would be nice if these arcs all lead to an AV/EB battle. However, I would settle with at least being able to finish the arcs while doing them.  Apparently, some of them can only be completed if you do the Ouroboros version.

As mentioned before the other broken part is being sent to hunt enemies in zones that no longer spawn that type of enemy.

Add an AV/EB to the end of the 15-19 Origin arcs that are missing one. That enemy should be relevant to the Origin.

I didn't experience these "broken arc" issues until the level 15-19 arcs. 

 

Arc Structure

To some extent, all arcs should lead to a conclusion that leads you to the climactic battle/big bad that will bring the arc to a conclusion.

In most cases I think this should be an AV/EB battle. In some cases, it is when a traitor is revealed (who can turn into an AV/EB).

In the case of Origin stories, it should be relevant to the progression of understanding the Origin. If I recall the final original Origin arcs, this is more covered in those missions more than any of the lower level Origin arcs.

Basic story structure is setup and followed through along the way and most of that is intact. It's just that final battle and conclusion/resolution that seems to be missing.

Defeating Dr Vazh seems to fit that, but then you are immediately sent to hunt down more Vazh on the streets. In one way, I can see it's to "clean" up the last of them, but it feels more to me like I wasn't really able to "Put an End to the Vazhilok Threat".

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a resurgence of the Big Bad, because we all know that they have a way of escaping to return another day. I'm all good with that mechanic. But at that point in time, the hero should feel like they have defeated the enemy "once and for all" aka rid the streets of Paragon City from that menace (at least conceptually even if I might encounter that enemy type again because they inherently spawn in the zone).

 

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by UltraAlt
changed "should" to "shouldn't" - misworded

[Rudra]

Avoid Outleveling of contacts while still allowing challenging gameplay

The game was designed to be played at +0/x0 (+0/x1). Even on Live, playing at this level would see you outlevel contacts if you dealt with multiple contacts. (Which is why being able to turn off xp being added back on Live was such a welcome change.) HC ramped up the xp gains, and playing at higher difficulty levels also ramps up the gains, making it even easier to outlevel contacts. And even when you get the contact's story arc, you can still outlevel the contact. Since you have the story arc available though, you can still finish it, though the foes will become progressively more grey in threat as you outlevel the arc. (I once forgot I had a level 9 arc going until I was level 45. Whoops.) Nothing prevents players from outleveling contacts currently other than turning off xp. (I currently have a level 29 character with almost full xp to level 30 with xp turned off so I can do all the level 25-29 contacts' arcs.) I am against the idea of the game forcing the player to not gain xp any more if they hit the contact's max level for a story arc though. That should be an option, not a requirement, and we already have that option in being able to turn off xp ourselves. If you want to know the contact's max level, you can check the contact at https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Main_Page or https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Main_Page. If you want something on the contact, maybe in the dialogue box, that also gives the level range information? I'd be fine with that.

 

An alternative to street hunting

I agree that the street sweep missions are tedious. Especially the ones in the 23-29 range that seem to have multiple versions of the same mission that almost all your contacts give you, often at the same time until that specific mission is accepted and cleared if a "speak with the security officer" street sweep mission. However, I have never had a street sweep mission given to me that did not have the requisite targets in the area. They may be an uncommon spawn, only located at specific locations in that area, or even be limited by time of day in game to spawn, but every street sweep mission has mobs of the required type at some time in some location in that area. (Even the Crey street sweep mission in Brickstown that is limited to a single building's area has the Crey mobs there. Just not in numbers, and sometimes you have to clear out CoT to make space for Crey to spawn.) Other than the felt need to state that? I don't know how I feel about your radio/paper replacement for street sweep missions.

 

Provide an AV/EB battle for the end of all the level 15-19 Origin Arcs

Not every arc in the 15-19 range had an EB/AV opponent at the end. So the ones that lack them aren't broken. They were not designed to have them. If you want to add them? Which AVs/EBs should be added for which arcs? And what would be the justification for adding them? More information please.

 

Fix the broken arcs

Which arcs are broken? Can you be more specific? Broken arcs should be reported under bugs at this link: https://forums.homecomingservers.com/forum/32-bug-reports/ . I do all the content on my characters as I level them and have not found any such broken arcs. However, if there are broken arcs, please report them as described on the Bugs forum.

 

Arc Structure

Not every arc is intended to have a Final Boss Fight. Most are simply supposed to be finished by dealing with the core problem of the arc. From the (extremely frustrating because of the guaranteed sea of DE the crystals spawn for no reward) Unnatural Order/Will of the Earth arc to the Ring of Peebles arc and more. Many arcs are basically investigations into the goings on of the different factions, learning what the factions are about and how they influence Paragon City, the Rogue Isles, or Praetoria; and the resolution of the immediate concerns/threats from a given activity of that faction. (Edit: Some of the arcs culminate in a fight against a lieutenant instead of a boss. Because the lieutenant makes more sense than any of the bosses. Like the BP arc against Archie or whatever his name is.) The EBs/AVs are the rare foe for when you tackle something critical to the faction, like chasing down Countess Crey herself, stopping Maestro in Striga Isle, dealing with Dr. Vazhilok's disease that he may or may not be spreading or fighting, and so forth. (It is the TFs and SFs that are the arcs where you are supposed to have a Final Boss Fight. And you can choose to solo them.)

 

Edit: For clarification? You don't end the Vahzilok threat. There is a story arc that illustrates how the Vahzilok continue after Dr. Vazhilok himself is removed from the picture. And according to the blue side and red side story arcs that delve into that? You basically made things worse by taking away Dr. Vahzilok's leadership. I'm just waiting to see the Freaklok explode onto the scene.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Rudra

[UltraAlt]

32 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I am against the idea of the game forcing the player to not gain xp any more if they hit the contact's max level for a story arc though.

 

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Somehow the contact would need to give the option to lock xp at their top level until their arc is completed.

 

-

 

33 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The game was designed to be played at +0/x0 (+0/x1).

 

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I find myself having to play missions on flat settings in order to avoid outleveling contacts and still often find the need to lock my xp.

 

-

 

35 minutes ago, Rudra said:

However, I have never had a street sweep mission given to me that did not have the requisite targets in the area.

 

My Magic Origin character was"... sent to track down Circle of Thorn in Boomtown and Faultline, but I couldn't find any. Checked https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Boomtown and https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Faultline for villain groups in those areas. Yeah, Circle of Thorns are not listed as villain groups in either area."

 

 

 

40 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Not every arc in the 15-19 range had an EB/AV opponent at the end.

 

I'm not asking for it for every arc in the 15-19 range, but if one Origin gets an AV in the 15-19 arc, then I feel that all the Origins should get one.

 

41 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Which arcs are broken?

 

The level 15-19 Tech Origin contact arcs. It looks like it happened when Issue 8 was released and the original Hazard Zone Faultline was removed.

 

57 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Not every arc is intended to have a final boss fight. Most are simply supposed to be finished by dealing with the core problem of the arc.

 

What is the "core problem" of an Origin arc?

 

Pretty clearly fighting Dr Vazhilok is a core problem for Mutation Origin.

I should have set my Magic Origin to have AVs during fights so I could have confirmed if any of the three Tsoo bosses that the character fought were AVs or not. I'm assuming the last one was. So fighting through several Tsoo bosses was also boss fights.

The other three arcs really didn't have much of anything going on so far, but I haven't finished them yet (for sure). I'm pretty sure the Tech Arc just died (no big fight or revelation. You just don't get any more missions). I have to wait to level up for more missions on one of the other Origins and the other one was still giving me missions the last time that I played them.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

From the (extremely frustrating because of the guaranteed sea of DE the crystals spawn for no reward) Unnatural Order/Will of the Earth arc to the Ring of Peebles arc and more.

 

I don't know about the Unnatural Order/Will of Earth Arc, but Stephanie Peeble is just one of multiple Striga Island contacts that she is the starting point for and eventually does lead to AV battles at the end of the series of contact arcs for that zone. You get the https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Wedding_Band for completing Stephanie's Arc.

 

Unlike the strings of zone contacts - which are zone related, the Origin arcs are progressions through the various enemy types/organizations/groups that are related to that Origin. You outlevel groups as you progress through to the next contact. Some groups stretch over wider level ranges than others. 

I think that there should be an AV/EB battle when you get to the highest level of a villain group you are battling during the Origin mission arcs at least.

 

The turning point of level 20 originally meant a lot more than it does in today's game. The third tier of Origin Arc are from level 15-19.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

It is the TFs and SFs that are the arcs where you are supposed to have a Final Boss Fight.

 

These are not story arcs. They are Task Forces and Strike Forces as you have indicated.

How do they say it? It's like mixing apples and oranges?

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Edit: For clarification? You don't end the Vahzilok threat. There is a story arc that illustrates how the Vahzilok continue after Dr. Vazhilok himself is removed from the picture. And according to the blue side and red side story arcs that delve into that? You basically made things worse by taking away Dr. Vahzilok's leadership. I'm just waiting to see the Freaklok explode onto the scene.

 

But you do defeat Dr Vahzilok (even though he shows up in Posi 2 to be defeated there as well).

I can't say for sure because so much time and game changes have gone on, but I think that originally you did put an end to the Vazh in the level 15-19 Origin arc.

As per comics, 

3 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a resurgence of the Big Bad, because we all know that they have a way of escaping to return another day. I'm all good with that mechanic. But at that point in time, the hero should feel like they have defeated the enemy "once and for all" aka rid the streets of Paragon City from that menace (at least conceptually even if I might encounter that enemy type again because they inherently spawn in the zone).

 

[I have to go back and fix that because I meant "shouldn't" instead of  "should" (context related)]

 

That kind of thing makes the hero feel triumphant at that point.

Later the hero can be shocked when the menace returns that they felt that they had ultimately defeated.

It's a genre thing.

 

[Rudra]

9 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

The game was designed to be played at +0/x0 (+0/x1).

 

12 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I find myself having to play missions on flat settings in order to avoid outleveling contacts and still often find the need to lock my xp.

 

-

 

10 hours ago, Rudra said:

Even on Live, playing at this level would see you outlevel contacts if you dealt with multiple contacts. (Which is why being able to turn off xp being added back on Live was such a welcome change.) HC ramped up the xp gains, and playing at higher difficulty levels also ramps up the gains, making it even easier to outlevel contacts.

 

Edit: Spacing added. (I should also point out that back on Live, you could start at min level for a contact, only do missions for that contact, and outlevel that contact without ever seeing the contact's story arc. At least that was changed, thankfully.)

 

9 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

My Magic Origin character was"... sent to track down Circle of Thorn in Boomtown and Faultline, but I couldn't find any. Checked https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Boomtown and https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Faultline for villain groups in those areas. Yeah, Circle of Thorns are not listed as villain groups in either area."

I haven't seen this. Flag it under the Bugs forum.

 

9 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

What is the "core problem" of an Origin arc?

 

Pretty clearly fighting Dr Vazhilok is a core problem for Mutation Origin.

I should have set my Magic Origin to have AVs during fights so I could have confirmed if any of the three Tsoo bosses that the character fought were AVs or not. I'm assuming the last one was. So fighting through several Tsoo bosses was also boss fights.

The other three arcs really didn't have much of anything going on so far, but I haven't finished them yet (for sure). I'm pretty sure the Tech Arc just died (no big fight or revelation. You just don't get any more missions). I have to wait to level up for more missions on one of the other Origins and the other one was still giving me missions the last time that I played them.

Depends on the arc. The core problem in the mutation origin arc was not Dr. Vahzilok. He was the Big Bad at the end either because he was responsible for creating the plague and wanted to make sure it remained untreatable, or because he was aware of the plague and wanted to be the one to treat it. The arc's content and dialogue implies the first, but your meeting with him at the end implies the latter. And given how little information your contact has about the inner workings of the Vahzilok and their preconceptions that Bad Guy is Bad, how little need there is for Dr. Vahzilok to lie about his involvement given his nature and confidence in his victory against you, I'm inclined to go with the latter.

9 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

But you do defeat Dr Vahzilok (even though he shows up in Posi 2 to be defeated there as well).

I can't say for sure because so much time and game changes have gone on, but I think that originally you did put an end to the Vazh in the level 15-19 Origin arc.

The original implication was that yes, the Vahzilok will slowly fade away, just like the implication is for the Banished Pantheon is they will slowly fade away because of your actions. However, that does not mean the groups will actually fade away. It just means they stop being an immediate concern for the character and the character moves on to the next challenge. (Edit: And then behold! Incarnate Dark Astoria and the BP not only did not fade away, they bided their time and were much stronger than anticipated.)

 

9 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

As per comics, 

12 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a resurgence of the Big Bad, because we all know that they have a way of escaping to return another day. I'm all good with that mechanic. But at that point in time, the hero should feel like they have defeated the enemy "once and for all" aka rid the streets of Paragon City from that menace (at least conceptually even if I might encounter that enemy type again because they inherently spawn in the zone).

 

[I have to go back and fix that because I meant "shouldn't" instead of  "should" (context related)]

 

That kind of thing makes the hero feel triumphant at that point.

Even in comics, the hero rarely permanently defeats a group or even has the perception of having done so. Spiderman and King Pin have fought many, many, many times. And even when Spiderman first defeated King Pin, there was no ultimate triumph. Not even the implication of one. Just the relief that a threat has at least temporarily been reduced. Or the X-Men and their perpetual fight against the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. Even the portrayal of an ultimate victory is avoided in comics unless the writers are ready to remove the threat and replace it with something new. Which reduces their available pool of material to write about. Every victory that didn't result in the death of the antagonist(s) was a victory to be sure, but never Ultimate Victory Over Evil. The only Ultimate Victories were the ones that resulted in the character's (antagonist's) death, resulting in the protagonist's surprise when the dead Big Bad makes his/her/its triumphant return.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Rudra
Edited for spelling and clarity.

[Rudra]

9 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

11 hours ago, Rudra said:

I am against the idea of the game forcing the player to not gain xp any more if they hit the contact's max level for a story arc though.

 

12 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Somehow the contact would need to give the option to lock xp at their top level until their arc is completed.

 

-

 

11 hours ago, Rudra said:

That should be an option, not a requirement, and we already have that option in being able to turn off xp ourselves.

Open Menu, select Options, scroll down on 1st tab to bottom of window, disable xp. Can be done even at the contact you are about to outlevel. Option already available.

[UltraAlt]

6 hours ago, Rudra said:

Edit: Spacing added. (I should also point out that back on Live, you could start at min level for a contact, only do missions for that contact, and outlevel that contact without ever seeing the contact's story arc. At least that was changed, thankfully.)

 

You can start all the Origin arcs at the starting level if you take care to avoid outleveling each contact as you go. In some cases  you can't even get the next contact until you are one level above the previous contact - which means, the contact goes into the inactive contact tab before providing the next Origin contact.

 

Unfortunately, it hasn't changed in all cases and  you can lock in the arc once you get the book icon. However, there are often missions after you complete the book part of the arc.

 

And as you pointed out, the game didn't start with the notoriety system (at least as far as I can remember as well) and, once it was introduced, I think I recall needing to go to a trainer to adjust it versus the great little bubble at the end of the chat line.

Plus now it's x2 XP every day - all the time - if you want it.

On top of all of this, enemies were tweaked to make the game easier as well. (Hello, https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Shadow_Cyst_Crystal  and the generall weakening of https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Kheldian#Quantum_Gunners, https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Kheldian#Void_Hunters , etc.) [In some ways, I think that the Hellions and Outcast were buffed]

 

7 hours ago, Rudra said:

I haven't seen this. Flag it under the Bugs forum.

I did ... last Thursday.

Spoiler

 

7 hours ago, Rudra said:

Depends on the arc. The core problem in the mutation origin arc was not Dr. Vahzilok. He was the Big Bad at the end either because he was responsible for creating the plague and wanted to make sure it remained untreatable, or because he was aware of the plague and wanted to be the one to treat it. The arc's content and dialogue implies the first, but your meeting with him at the end implies the latter. And given how little information your contact has about the inner workings of the Vahzilok and their preconceptions that Bad Guy is Bad, how little need there is for Dr. Vahzilok to lie about his involvement given his nature and confidence in his victory against you, I'm inclined to go with the latter.

 

I'm pointing directly at the Origin Arcs and those alone.

The third tier ends at level 19. Level 20 is the "coming of age" level where you can unlock a cape ... which was a big deal back-in-the-day. And that is the reason that I believe these arcs in particular should have an AV to fight.

 

The Origin Arcs don't interlock as much as the zone arcs do. 

In fact, I pointed out in ....

... that Science Origin fights Vazhilok from level 1-14 and, at level 15-19, they switch to fighting Clocks and Trolls.

What happened to the Vazh?

The Mutation Origin fights the Skulls from 1-14 and Lost from 10-14. Then from 15-19, they are the Origin that fight the Vazh and battle Dr Vazhilok.

 

The end of the string of story arcs in a zone do lead to an AV ... I'm not !00% sure, but I'm pretty sure in all cases. (no need to go into PI that as multiple AVs!)

 

As far as the "plague",

"You have been infected with the Vahzilok Wasting Disease. This disease, introduced by the Vahzilok, is slowly wasting you away. Find a cure, quick! Your Max Hit Points, Endurance, Regeneration, and Recovery have all been reduced." - https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Vahzilok_Wasting_Disease

 

7 hours ago, Rudra said:

And given how little information your contact has about the inner workings of the Vahzilok and their preconceptions that Bad Guy is Bad, how little need there is for Dr. Vahzilok to lie about his involvement given his nature and confidence in his victory against you, I'm inclined to go with the latter.

 

I smell a whiff of villainy known by some as the "red" side.

Dr. Vahzilok is sending this minions out to kidnap people to use their organs to make his minions.

I'm sorry, but evil is evil.

 

You can get some of your murky gray going on with Praetoria and later content, but the original villains from Paragon City were villains and some of them flat out evil.

I throw the CoT and Vazhilok in with the evil ones.

You can claim the Hellions are misguided, but you can't complain about heroes with fire powers if you do. The Hellions are arsonists in addition to being occult minions of the CoT.

Outcast are thugs trying to make money to buy drugs from the Trolls who use what money they make to buy even stronger drugs from the Tsoo.

I guess you can say that the Clocks are just trying to recycle ... which is good for the planet ... and that their leader is just lovelorn over Penny Yin. They are really the closest to being misunderstood.

 

7 hours ago, Rudra said:

Even in comics, the hero rarely permanently defeats a group or even has the perception of having done so

 

Yeah. That's my point.

They do come back, but, at the same time, the hero does think that they have permanently defeated the foe (at least for the time being)

[You know, until they break out of Arkham Asylum or Hydra sprouts a new couple of tentacles].

 

For a time, the hero gets a sense of accomplishment that they HAVE defeated the foe.

 

[UltraAlt]

7 hours ago, Rudra said:

Open Menu, select Options, scroll down on 1st tab to bottom of window, disable xp. Can be done even at the contact you are about to outlevel. Option already available.

 

Not obvious enough that it needs to be done to retain a contacts arc at a relevant level, nor does it indicate in-game at all what at contact's maximum level is. You simply outlevel them.

You have to look up the contact on the wiki to see what their max level is.

 

In-game doesn't indicate the minimum level of a contact either, but that isn't as important as the maximum level.

I can't tell you how many times since I've started playing on Homecoming that I have gained a contact, run one mission, and the contact moves to inactive.

 

I mean even having the border around the contacts change color as you level would be helpful. Green when you are fresh on the contact, yellow when 3 levels to the end of the contact, orange when you are 2 levels from the end of the arc, and red when you are at the contact's highest level.

That might be the way to handle it instead of sticking it into the text for each contact or putting it next to their name in the contact list. It will be a little less intrusive.

[Rudra]

Correct about notoriety. The notoriety adjustments were added after launch because characters got powerful enough to solo team-sized missions. You had to visit a Fortunata Fateweaver or Hero Corps Analyst to change your settings. Then they were eventually folded into the chat window.

5 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

Yeah. That's my point.

They do come back, but, at the same time, the hero does think that they have permanently defeated the foe (at least for the time being)

[You know, until they break out of Arkham Asylum or Hydra sprouts a new couple of tentacles].

Except that aside from Arkham Asylum or similar bits, comic heroes don't get that reprieve. Using my Spiderman reference, Kingpin never actually spends any time behind bars. Spiderman never gets the feeling of "Okay, I've won. This threat is over." Using your Hydra reference, the heroes aren't allowed the delusion that they have defeated Hydra. The defeated "head of Hydra" gleefully tells the heroes that the fight isn't over every time. So the heroes have to hope to find all the other heads of Hydra before the cut off one grows back. And they never do. Same thing with AIM or VIPER or any myriad other groups. Only small groups with a singular lead give that hope. Like the Joker, Mr. Freeze, and other strictly local, low threat entities/groups. We're never going to agree on this, are we?

 

6 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Not obvious enough that it needs to be done to retain a contacts arc at a relevant level, nor does it indicate in-game at all what at contact's maximum level is. You simply outlevel them.

You have to look up the contact on the wiki to see what their max level is.

 

In-game doesn't indicate the minimum level of a contact either, but that isn't as important as the maximum level.

I can't tell you how many times since I've started playing on Homecoming that I have gained a contact, run one mission, and the contact moves to inactive.

 

I mean even having the border around the contacts change color as you level would be helpful. Green when you are fresh on the contact, yellow when 3 levels to the end of the contact, orange when you are 2 levels from the end of the arc, and red when you are at the contact's highest level.

That might be the way to handle it instead of sticking it into the text for each contact or putting it next to their name in the contact list. It will be a little less intrusive.

 

18 hours ago, Rudra said:

If you want something on the contact, maybe in the dialogue box, that also gives the level range information? I'd be fine with that.

 

 

[UltraAlt]

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Using my Spiderman reference, Kingpin never actually spends any time behind bars.

 

 

 "Kingpin finally succeeds in getting Matt Murdock arrested, but the FBI betrays him at the last minute and arrests him as well, placing him in the same jail as Murdock in the hopes that the two will kill each other;[37] instead, the two enemies team up to survive a prison riot directed at them. Finally, Murdock sacrifices the deal, refusing to let Bullseye (who was also incarcerated) leave the prison as the Kingpin had planned. The fight ends with the Kingpin shot point-blank in the knee by gunfire from Bullseye intended for Murdock, while Murdock escapes; a dying Vanessa is revealed to have manipulated events to attempt to have them both killed, while mourning her son's death. [38 {Daredevil vol. 2 #86–87 (August–September 2006). Marvel Comics.}]

Fisk appears in the 2006 Civil War: War Crimes one-shot issue, in which he offers information about Captain America's Resistance base to Iron Man, the leader of the pro-Registration forces in exchange for a reduced sentence. But as his status in prison is threatened for collaborating with Iron Man, he betrays Iron Man. [39 {Civil War: War Crimes (May 2007) Marvel Comics}] He then puts out a hit on Spider-Man's loved ones after Iron Man convinced Peter Parker to publicly reveal himself as a means of demonstrating support for the Superhuman Registration Act. This results in May Parker being gravely wounded by a sniper's attempt to kill Spider-Man. After tracing the event back to Kingpin, Spider-Man confronts the Kingpin in prison and badly beats him in front of his fellow inmates. Spider-Man decides to let the Kingpin live with the humiliation of his defeat, news of which will quickly spread through the Underworld. Parker vows, however, to kill the Kingpin if May dies.[40 {The Amazing Spider-Man #538-542 (May–August 2007). Marvel Comics.}]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingpin_(character)

 

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

Using your Hydra reference, the heroes aren't allowed the delusion that they have defeated Hydra. The defeated "head of Hydra" gleefully tells the heroes that the fight isn't over every time.

 

"In the wake of Strucker's first death, the surviving elements of Hydra broke into factions that each adopted its own reorganized modus operandi. Several of these factions developed "super-agents" that would occasionally break away in turn to become freelance operatives, or, in some rarer cases, superheroes, such as the original Spider-Woman. During this era, Hydra's collective threat is mitigated by not only occasionally infighting among themselves, but their operating policy of punishing failure with death, often led to their killing of each other more often than their intended victims. ..."

"... Hydra frequently found itself defeated by S.H.I.E.L.D., various superheroes, and even apparently unpowered civilians, like the motorcycle racing team, Team America." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydra_(comics)

 

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

We're never going to agree on this, are we?

 

Apparently, not.

 

I'm glad that you agree that in some way the level range should show up on the contacts in-game in one way or another. I felt no need to respond to that as we were in agreement that something should be done about it.

As I stated from the get-go,

 

On 11/29/2022 at 1:46 AM, UltraAlt said:

I'm not sure how the best way is to handle it as this could easily be done in a heavy-handed way that might spoil some players' immersion and need to constantly progress xp/level-wise. I'm also not sure how much the game could handle automating it.

Somehow the contact would need to give the option to lock xp at their top level until their arc is completed. Could the XP-lock be initiated directly by interaction with a contact? Could it be set to kick in only when the player reaches the contact's max level? (If so, then the contact could automatically turn back on XP generation when their arc is completed).  Could the contact prompt the player each time they are "contacted" to advise them of their (the contact's) max level and that the player should go into the options menu and lock their xp before/at the max level so that they don't outlevel the arc?

 

 

 

[Akisan]

Would it be possible to have out-levelled contacts offer to automatically exemplar you on entering their missions (to the mission's max level, of course).  This would more or less prevent you from truly outlevelling arcs, but still allows you to gain levels and take new contacts.  This could be done on a contact to contact basis, or even globally opted in/out of via the general xp options.

[Rudra]

9 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 "Kingpin finally succeeds in getting Matt Murdock arrested, but the FBI betrays him at the last minute and arrests him as well, placing him in the same jail as Murdock in the hopes that the two will kill each other;[37] instead, the two enemies team up to survive a prison riot directed at them. Finally, Murdock sacrifices the deal, refusing to let Bullseye (who was also incarcerated) leave the prison as the Kingpin had planned. The fight ends with the Kingpin shot point-blank in the knee by gunfire from Bullseye intended for Murdock, while Murdock escapes; a dying Vanessa is revealed to have manipulated events to attempt to have them both killed, while mourning her son's death. [38 {Daredevil vol. 2 #86–87 (August–September 2006). Marvel Comics.}]

Fisk appears in the 2006 Civil War: War Crimes one-shot issue, in which he offers information about Captain America's Resistance base to Iron Man, the leader of the pro-Registration forces in exchange for a reduced sentence. But as his status in prison is threatened for collaborating with Iron Man, he betrays Iron Man. [39 {Civil War: War Crimes (May 2007) Marvel Comics}] He then puts out a hit on Spider-Man's loved ones after Iron Man convinced Peter Parker to publicly reveal himself as a means of demonstrating support for the Superhuman Registration Act. This results in May Parker being gravely wounded by a sniper's attempt to kill Spider-Man. After tracing the event back to Kingpin, Spider-Man confronts the Kingpin in prison and badly beats him in front of his fellow inmates. Spider-Man decides to let the Kingpin live with the humiliation of his defeat, news of which will quickly spread through the Underworld. Parker vows, however, to kill the Kingpin if May dies.[40 {The Amazing Spider-Man #538-542 (May–August 2007). Marvel Comics.}]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingpin_(character)

Character introduced July 1967. Fought heroes and had his plans/crimes foiled repeatedly. Not imprisoned until October 2003. So no, there was no repreive until a writer finally decided to imprison him shortly before the civil war.

 

9 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

"... Hydra frequently found itself defeated by S.H.I.E.L.D., various superheroes, and even apparently unpowered civilians, like the motorcycle racing team, Team America." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydra_(comics)

And yet always there causing more trouble.

 

Anyway, this debate has derailed the thread more than a little. If you want AVs/EBs for all the arcs, then which ones and why? (The question I posed in my first response.)

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, Akisan said:

Would it be possible to have out-levelled contacts offer to automatically exemplar you on entering their missions (to the mission's max level, of course).  This would more or less prevent you from truly outlevelling arcs, but still allows you to gain levels and take new contacts.  This could be done on a contact to contact basis, or even globally opted in/out of via the general xp options.

I don't think that can actually be done. Would be nice, but I think the only way to do that is to make the arcs work like they do in Ouroboros. Which would prevent the player from inviting other players to join after started and lock out the ability to do other content. Maybe I'm wrong though and the devs know an alternate approach.

[UltraAlt]

6 hours ago, Rudra said:

Anyway, this debate has derailed the thread more than a little. If you want AVs/EBs for all the arcs, then which ones and why? (The question I posed in my first response.)

 

My intent was not to imply that all Arcs should have AV/EBs. I think I may have worded that way initially.

My intent was that I felt that all of the level 15-19 Origin Arcs should have EBs.

 

I also think that all Zone Story arcs currently end with an AV/EB battle. The end of some zone story arcs may lead into task forces which end in an EB/AV battle. 

Stephanie Peebles is the first story arc in a line of Striga zone story arcs that lead directly from one to the next (as long as you don't outlevel the next contact while completing the lower level contact's story arc, which is very possible these days.

 

Can you agree with that or is there still an issue with you about these points?

I'll let you have the last word on it as I think I have indicated my stand on these issues clearly enough for anyone that has read this thread.

 

11 hours ago, Akisan said:

Would it be possible to have out-levelled contacts offer to automatically exemplar you on entering their missions (to the mission's max level, of course).  This would more or less prevent you from truly outlevelling arcs, but still allows you to gain levels and take new contacts.  This could be done on a contact to contact basis, or even globally opted in/out of via the general xp options.

 

That is an interesting idea and would be a good workaround if it could be done.

 

It is essentially what Ouroboros does, but would potentially enable you to still be able to recruit others to run the missions with you instead of locking everyone else out like Ouroboros missions arcs do.

 

It could be a way to go back and complete any contacts arc through the in-active tab.

 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by UltraAlt