New Archetype Idea: The Engager

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, Puma said:

What about an Epic Archetype, with some branching options for pets? So you always have attacks that also heal, and melee that also gives +end, but  you can select from like 4 single pets that offer different minor supplements like listed above?  Maybe one offers mez protection, but another offers +Rech, etc.  when in the guard mode?  

Like I said, your proposal seems to be a better idea for a power set than an AT simply because of how you want it to work. It is much easier to make a set based off kinetics or negative energy that fits what you are describing without having to go through a super-athlete's nightmare acrobatics course of mental gymnastics to explain why it does what it does.

 

Edit:

Blast set: Necrotic Blast. Each attack heals the character or grants minor absorb. Available to Sentinels, Blasters, Defenders, and Corruptors.

Manipulation set: Rejuvenating Melee. Each attack grants a minor END boost or recovery boost. Available to Blasters.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Rudra

[Puma]

11 hours ago, Rudra said:

 

Gun Drone: You set up a gun drone turret at your location. While immobile, the drone rapid fires at targets within its engagement range.

   If the gun drone sets up a shield, then you are talking about a force field. Which should also benefit any allies that get behind it. Hello. combined FFG and gun drone.

 

Pulsing Orb: You create a plasma orb at your location that repels targets, inflicting minor energy damage as it does.

   If the orb can boost your health, then why can't it also boost the health of your allies?

 

So your pitch is either armor that for some reason the character chooses not to maintain, which would require dedicated armor powers or an armor set, or an effect that in actuality boost every ally in the effect area, or an effect that hinders enemies rather than boosting the character. Do you see the problem I ahve with this element of the AT? If you can armor up, then why aren't you maintaining the armor while you fight? If the benefit is a field or a shield, then why aren't your allies also benefitting from it? If the effect affects your enemies and hinders them, then it is an effect that attacks and hinders your enemies.

 

 

I thought about this again, I just want to point out: 

 

Defenders, Corruptors, and Controllers ALL have access to Cold Domination, which allows them to master ice to the point of being able to cover their allies with ice shields that deflect damage, and layers of frost that absorb damage,  yet for some reason in the game they can't apply these same effects to themselves.  Meanwhile Tankers can cover themselves ice shields, etc. but can't do that to others.   There is also Thermal for defenders, which allows them to control fire and grant firey shields around friends, give them status resistance by thawing them out, or even boost their damage and accuracy, but for some reason in the game they can't apply these effects to themselves. Fire tankers can do it to themselves but not others.   Sonic users can create sound barriers for every single person around them, but for some reason not themselves.   Storm defenders can control the wind to oxygenate an ally, healing them and giving them status protection, but they can't seem to figure out how to send that wind to themselves.

This game has a long history of some powers working differently depending on the archetype of the user even if, in theory, they should be able to apply to others (or themselves).   And as I showed, with a simple tweak of the power description you can easily explain why if you really felt like you needed to for immersion. 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by Puma

[Rudra]

8 hours ago, Puma said:

 

I thought about this again, I just want to point out: 

 

Defenders, Corruptors, and Controllers ALL have access to Cold Domination, which allows them to master ice to the point of being able to cover their allies with ice shields that deflect damage, and layers of frost that absorb damage,  yet for some reason in the game they can't apply these same effects to themselves.  Meanwhile Tankers can cover themselves ice shields, etc. but can't do that to others.   There is also Thermal for defenders, which allows them to control fire and grant firey shields around friends, give them status resistance by thawing them out, or even boost their damage and accuracy, but for some reason in the game they can't apply these effects to themselves. Fire tankers can do it to themselves but not others.   Sonic users can create sound barriers for every single person around them, but for some reason not themselves.   Storm defenders can control the wind to oxygenate an ally, healing them and giving them status protection, but they can't seem to figure out how to send that wind to themselves.

This game has a long history of some powers working differently depending on the archetype of the user even if, in theory, they should be able to apply to others (or themselves).   And as I showed, with a simple tweak of the power description you can easily explain why if you really felt like you needed to for immersion. 

 

 

And here is where that analogy comparison breaks down. Tankers and Brutes ice up. They manifest a personal power. Defenders, Controllers, and Corruptors project their abilities at a single target, icing them up for protection. Your proposal is an AoE effect that somehow only benefits your character. It isn't an innately a personally manifested defense like Tankers and Brutes. It isn't a single target projected ability protecting allies. It is an ice storm affecting an area but only benefitting you. That logic fails.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to correct word choice.

[Puma]

7 hours ago, Rudra said:

And here is where that analogy comparison breaks down. Tankers and Brutes ice up. They manifest a personal power. Defenders, Controllers, and Corruptors project their abilities at a single target, icing them up for protection. Your proposal is an AoE effect that somehow only benefits your character. It isn't an innately a personally manifested defense like Tankers and Brutes. It isn't a single target projected ability protecting allies. It is an ice storm affecting an area but only benefitting you. That logic fails.

 

Ice Shields and Thermal shields are applied to the entire group (not even just team members but league mates) at the same time.   Well...ALMOST the entire group.  You can get everyone but yourself.  Because...reasons.   Ice Sentinels can CLEARLY create ice constructs outside of their immediate skin, since they create piercing icicles constantly around them, patches of ice one the ground,  bursts of ice in the air, and can even encase a foe in ice so thick they completely held from a distance.  Yet they can't seem make an ice shield for you.  Life's weird, you know? So yes. When Engagers summon Gun Drone, the Kevlar Nano-burst only affects themselves- maybe it's because they have magnetic stitching that attracts it. Who knows.  And when they summon a Frozen Fissure at their feet, the opening of the fissure encases only them in a layer of frost and ice. Maybe it's because they know only they would be immune to getting frostbite.  When they call down an Infernal Rain they gather up the accompanying ash as a temporary protection for just themselves. Maybe there isn't enough ash for more than one person, or maybe the ash is still damned hot and putting it on someone who isn't innately immune to fire would burn the hell out of them.  Who knows. It's "reasons" that make the powers work this way.  The same reason a kinetic can increase the mass of everyone around them for protection, but can't seem to it to themselves, but they CAN lower their own inertia alongside everyone else and jump super far.   
 
So again, there is nothing "weird" about having powers that are limited in who they affect for reasons we don't quite understand. The game is literally filled with them.  

 

Edit:  I went back and edited the initial descriptions of the HP/Absorb granting powers to reflect this line of thinking.  

Edited April 7, 2023 by Puma

[Rudra]

I will always say that line of thinking is nonsense. Why? Because you can project an effect and not be affected by it. You can manifest an effect and be the only one affected by it. (And obviously, you can project an effect and affect both yourself and others with it.) While you can project an effect and be the only beneficiary of it, your presentation to do so makes absolutely no sense. You will never change my mind. We are going around in circles and it is very wearying.

 

Edit: Why you will never change my mind:

Gun Drone: If the character can get or make a gun drone that can create a barrier on the character, then why doesn't the character get/make a belt or other item that constantly provides that same effect? (That would be an armor.) If the character has to wear special gear or possess special enhancements anyway for the gun drone to provide that benefit? Then again, why not just incorporate that benefit into the special gear or enhancement? (That would be an armor.) If the gun drone can provide that benefit without need of any such trait/ability, then why can't it benefit allies within the gun drone's range of benefit?

 

Energy Orb: If the character can manifest an energy orb that both repels (and damages) foes and also provide the character a defensive benefit? Then why doesn't the character just manifest and maintain a smaller orb to sustain that effect continuously so (s)he doesn't have to rely on the hope the attacking orb is successful to provide that benefit? (That would be an armor.)

 

Ice Storm: If the character can use the power of their ice storm to ice up (gaining defensive benefits), then why doesn't the character just maintain that ice shield? (That would be an armor.) If it is the storm itself providing that benefit, then why would it not also benefit any allies in its area of effect? Especially when they see it harmlessly layering on the character and protecting him/her.

 

Rain of Fire: See ice storm, except substitute burning things to get ash and maintaining the ash on the character as a sustained defense.

 

Also note that armors do not require they be able to slot resist damage enhancements. Regeneration is an armor set and it slots heal/absorb enhancements.

 

The provided logic for why it would only benefit the originating character boils down to either all characters using the AT are selfish to point of cruel, completely incompetent in the use of their own powers, or there is no justification for the effects to be applied in the way you are calling for.

 

This is why you will never change my mind on the matter. Correct me on any points you disagree with. I am going to leave it at I disagree and be done.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Rudra

[Puma]

 

Every character has limited resources.    

 

Under your logic, if I can cast Caltops on the ground that foes seem unable to walk through without suffering serious damage, but for some reason both I AND my friends can stand in just fine, why wouldn't I make them constantly disburse from a hole in my pocket as -I- walk around?  Because after a while I'd just run out. It's better to have control over when and how I need that protection. The same could go for Kevlar Nano-bots.  They only offer protection until they are damaged and become useless.  I don't have enough to constantly reapply, so I want control over how and when they are applied. Since I wouldn't be using gun drones unless I was in trouble, it's logical to tie them to that. Applying the trap also applies the protection and I kill two birds with one stone so I can focus on my other methods of survival and subdual. 

Maybe summoning a rain of ice or fire is kind of hard, and so I only do it when I'm in direct danger.  Sure, once I've done it the air is cold enough that the ice clings to my body, but I physically couldn't constantly maintain that ice storm without becoming exhausted. Just like I can't run constantly without becoming exhausted. So unfortunately, since the ice covering my body is generated by the storm itself, it's only going to be happen when I summon that storm.  Same with Rain of fire and the ash created as I summon it.  It's probably the same reason a storm defender can't keep a constant lightning cloud around them at all times, or a constant tornado around them at all times, but they can keep themselves dead center of a hurricane constantly.  It takes effort and energy to use your powers, so you do it in a way and at a time that is most efficient.  

  

 

17 hours ago, Rudra said:

 

The provided logic for why it would only benefit the originating character boils down to either all characters using the AT are selfish to point of cruel, completely incompetent in the use of their own powers, or there is no justification for the effects to be applied in the way you are calling for.

 

This is why you will never change my mind on the matter. Correct me on any points you disagree with. I am going to leave it at I disagree and be done.

  

Except as I pointed out three times now and you've yet to address, maybe it's because applying some of these powers to your friends would HURT them.   Ice defenders clearly have a way to apply ice to the skin of their friends that doesn't give them ice burns or keep them from moving, but Engagers can't do that. Electric Controllers can generate a Conductive Aura around them that gives them constant +HP and +end, but they can't share that with others. UNLESS they are also Electric Affinity users, where suddenly they can use electricity to heal others.  Is an Electric/Force Field controller just more selfish than an electric/electric, or do they just have powers that work differently?  Engagers might be immune themselves to Ice, Fire, Energy, etc. the same way Tankers are, but they can't make others immune the way a defender can.  Just like Defenders can't safely cover themselves in ice but can cover others.  Just like blasters can fire ice and summon ice storms, but not cover themselves in ice for protection.  Engagers have the skill to use their powers and weaponry as traps or attacks, and use the secondary affect to help them survive via healing or absorb.  They aren't defenders who can do the opposite (use it to attack or protect others but not themselves) or Tankers (use them to attack and protect themselves via armors).   

 

You're apply standards to this conceptual archetype that doesn't apply to -any other archetype- in the game.   

Edited April 7, 2023 by Puma

[biostem]

18 hours ago, Rudra said:

If the character can manifest an energy orb that both repels (and damages) foes and also provide the character a defensive benefit? Then why doesn't the character just manifest and maintain a smaller orb to sustain that effect continuously

It's called "Gameplay and Story Segregation" - there are balance or other gameplay reasons why a character can't do things in-game that they realistically should be able to do.  That super strong character that can rip up chunks from the ground without issue gets stopped by a measly interior door.  So to answer your question - it's because that's just how that character's powers work,,,