Looking for a Scrapper to level all the way (DM/SR or Kat/WP?)

[Story Archer]

G'day all! I recently rediscovered CoH (SO happy) and I'm trying to decide on a Scrapper for leveling. Play will primarily be solo with occasional duoing and teams only rarely. My main focus is to fully enjoy the pre-50 content. At the moment figure standard IO's only - my altitis combined with my personal aversion to power-leveling usually prevents me from being able to dive too deeply into sets - maybe a handful of uniques or procs in key spots and that's about it.

 

My first thought is a DM/SR. I'm not so worried about the -ToHit synergy with the high defenses of SR because I'm assuming minions won't last long enough for it to matter while bosses and above aren't really affected by it enough to matter. What I like about DM is a self-heal to compliment your high defense that can legitimately be worked into your attack chain, and an almost chainable series of AoE attacks, including an area Fear and an area damage/self-buffs. Heals, Recovery and Damage buffs that all simultaneously deal damage seems like a really efficient way to play. What I like about SR is the fact that it doesn't have to worry about -DEF causing a cascading defensive failure and the little Recharge buff it gives you. Defense always seemed to be a 2-for-1 because not getting hit also offers protection vs. mez effects. The biggest downside of this set seems to be that I have to take almost every power in both sets and I start running out of IO slots fast.  Is this an accurate evaluation? I've looked at Ninjitsu instead of SR, but I have zero experience with it so I'm not sure how they compare head-to-head and - embarrassing as it is to say - the names make it difficult at times to keep straight what does what when I'm planning the build.

 

I'd be interested in seeing build suggestions (again, I'm probably only using generic IO's, but suggestions for the few 'must have's would be appreciated), in part because I'm not sure what a smooth attack chain looks like once it has incorporated the AoE/self-buff attacks and I'm having trouble figuring out what powers can/should be skipped.

 

Would the Fighting Pool/Combat Jumping still be needed and what Ancillary Pool would compliment it best?

Even as an AoE attack, is Touch of Fear worth including in the build?

Would a Brute be a straight-up improvement over a Scrapper in this case? I'm not sure what the differences are beyond the effects of their inherents.

 

My other thought was Katana / Willpower. What I like about this combination is the defensive compliment that Divine Avalanche seems to bring to all of the regen and layered defenses offered by Willpower, making leveling 10-40 a much smoother experience. I also like auto powers that give +regen and +recovery and that the sets aren't so power/slot intensive. What I don't love is that it seems like Lethal is heavily resisted and Divine Avalanche only benefits melee (the main reason this choice is currently in second place).

 

I'm open to other suggestions for this particular playstyle but these are the two I'm looking the hardest at for the reasons stated. Not really a fire or ice guy, either.

 

TIA for any ideas, thoughts or suggestions. I really can't tell you how happy I am to have rediscovered CoX after all this time. 🙂

Edited July 16, 2023 by Story Archer

[Blackjoy]

As it turns out, DM/SR has been my main on both Live and Homecoming.  And while I love the set, it would not be my top recommendation.

 

12 hours ago, Story Archer said:

Play will primarily be solo with occasional duoing and teams only rarely. My main focus is to fully enjoy the pre-50 content. At the moment figure standard IO's only - my altitis combined with my personal aversion to power-leveling usually prevents me from being able to dive too deeply into sets - maybe a handful of uniques or procs in key spots and that's about it.

You haven't stated what difficulty level you want to run at, but assuming you're mainly interested in nothing higher than +2 by level 40, given these stated goals, I will tell you that you should absolutely run Anything/Regen.  For the last six months, I have been testing out the various secondaries with the same primary--savage melee.  I have been running nothing but IOs, with the sole exception of fully slotting Overwhelming Fear in Shred on all toons.  If you don't like /Regen, then I would recommend Radiation Armor.  Bio is also probably a good option too, though I have only tried it on a Tank.

 

I've tried /Regen on a few different primaries and it is, by far, the best solo experience I've had.   /Rad is good as well.  It doesn't have the big hit recovery like /Regen, but it does work well.  At the bottom of the list is /SR and /Shield.  I used to think /Shield was superior to /SR, but when it comes to leveling, /SR is actually better.  1)  The scaling passive +RES are far better at giving you time to run away compared to /Shield fixed +RES.  And you will be running away a lot as an /SR on IOS.  2)  With the recent change to allow Elude to be taken earlier, /SR has the Oh Crap power that is like an "I win" button in those mid-30s.  Far more effective than /Shied's Tier 9.  

 

The one major caveat with /Regen, however, is that you HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION.  This cannot be stated enough.  /Regen requires a LOT more user input to maximize and if you're not good at taking in peripheral information--like your health bar in the middle of a fight--then you might hate /Regen.  /Regen is very click-intensive.  You have to anticipate incoming damage and know when to hit Recon, Dull Pain, Instant Healing, Moment of Glory.  One of /Regen's powers is a Rez and you will use it if you start fighting +2 or higher, early on.

 

 

12 hours ago, Story Archer said:

My first thought is a DM/SR

There are a lot of issues with DM/SR...and they mostly come from /SR.   That main problem damage mitigation.   /SR is only getting about 28% +DEF from its active and possive positional defenses.  But you won't fully get that for all position groups until your 30's.  Which is to say that in the early levels  you're going to get hit.  You'll get hit more by Bosses and EBs and those bosses will have the double whammy of blowing past passive resistances.   AV's will have you for lunch on IOs.   Sure, by level 49, /SR, on IOs..you could soft cap with Stealth+CJ+Maneuvers+Tough, but you'll be passing out due to the lack of endurance and Dark Consumption is not going to stop that given how many slots you'll be putting into those other abilities.

 

Having leveled all these other secondaries, /Regen, by a country mile, has the most uptime.  On an IO build, by level 40, I could solo 3x1 with Reconstruction and Fast Healing. 

12 hours ago, Story Archer said:

Defense always seemed to be a 2-for-1 because not getting hit also offers protection vs. mez effects

Mez effects are not an issue for scrappers, except for Knockback on some secondaries.   The real issue for a set like /Regen once you get past 40, are debuffs.   -To Hit from bosses (I'm looking at you Nosferatu) can be crippling for /Regen. But that's true for other sets as well.  The reality is that even as an /SR, those EB's are going to hit you and debuff you.   The biggest scare for /Regen are Malta Sappers.  But you can tactics your way through that.  And it's not like /SR doesn't have it's own kryptonite in the form of non-positional psi, toxic, and Quartz crystals dropped by Devouring Earth.

 

12 hours ago, Story Archer said:

Would the Fighting Pool/Combat Jumping still be needed and what Ancillary Pool would compliment it best?

I never take the Fighting pool on any of my scrappers--EDIT: I've taken Tough on my SM/Regen, but never slotted it and never turn it on.  But most people do.  I would say it's absolutely not necessary unless you want to solo 4x8 and solo AVs.  I've done both of those things on my DM/SR without any Fighting Pool, but I can imagine there are other DM/SR builds that can do more than what I've done using the Fighting Pool.  But I'm not doing those things on IO builds.   

 

12 hours ago, Story Archer said:

Even as an AoE attack, is Touch of Fear worth including in the build?

I use ToF primarily as a control and debuff (though at high levels, it probably does very little debuff against 4x8).  It's actually really good with crowd control and I put a KD proc in it.   I can imagine if you proc it out, it can do decent damage, but you said you're not going to go deep into a build.  So yes, ToF is a great method to mitigate damage.   It is probably better on DM/Regen build than a DM/SR because /Regen is all about slowing down the rate of damage...where /SR doesn't want to extend the fight.

 

12 hours ago, Story Archer said:

Would a Brute be a straight-up improvement over a Scrapper in this case? I'm not sure what the differences are beyond the effects of their inherents.

 

My issue with Brutes is that you are forced into a go-go-go style of soloing.  On an /SR, you'll be taking damage and need to take a knee from time to time, and that will hurt your Fury bar.   In teaming, your punch-voke means you'll be taking the aggro if there's no Tank, and that's not always a good thing if you're running an IO build.  I also think Scrapper crits are more dynamic and fun.  Some builds are definitely going to be more survivable on a Brute e.g. /Regen.  But whether the Scrappers higher damage base means they are equally as effective, has yet to be disproven.  So if I'm going Brute, I would definitely go /Regen for solo work.

12 hours ago, Story Archer said:

My other thought was Katana / Willpower

I played a Staff/Willpower to 50.  Staff also have a Divine Avalanche type of attack.  At first, I thought /WP was what /Regen wanted to be when it grew up.  But it's not.  IMO, for what you want to do, /Willpower is not a good choice.   /WP's main issue is that it lacks a +Heal power.  While it does have some layered defenses and a fair amount of +regen, you can get overwhelmed by single hard targets.   /WP needs enemies to fuel its +REGEN and if you end up fighting Bosss and EB's solo, you can't out heal them.  Tough and Weave are probably very helpful to /WP.  At 50, /WP probably has a higher ceiling than /Regen.  But with /WP you really need to spend time getting deep into a build.  Just pumping money into it, is not enough.

 

 

12 hours ago, Story Archer said:

I've looked at Ninjitsu instead of SR, but I have zero experience with it so I'm not sure how they compare head-to-head

 

I'm doing my SM/Ninjitsu run through right now.  It's similar to /SR but with a couple of major differences:

1.  It's got its own +heal and +Endo  clicks.  This dramatically improves the up time over /SR.

2  It has a built in Stealth-like power that improves crit attacks and gives you some ability sneak around.

3. It lacks scaling +RES, so not quit as reliably to run away.  

4. It lacks KB resistance early on, so this is a little annoying

5.  It requires more driving.   /SR is fire and forget.  /Nin has its click heal/endo, so you're having to devote a little more energy into maximizing the build.

 

If you want fire and forget then you're looking at  /WP, /SR, /Shield, and I'll put /Invul closer to FaF than.   If you like driving, then /Regen, /Ninjitsu, /Rad, /Bio, /Dark Armor

 

IME, /Rad is a good compromise.

 

I have not tried El Armor, En Armor, Dark Armor, Fire, Ice, Stone.   I have very limited experience with /Invul.  Haven't played it since Live.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Blackjoy

[Without_Pause]

As Blackjoy mentioned, this partly depends on what level you are trying to solo. Also, once you hit 50, do you plan on using IOs on the character to further max it out? If you want to solo on lower content and just kind of explore the game as is, Kat/wp will absolutely work. IIRC, I got my Claws/wp brute to 50 on common IOs until I could go and add in sets. My only real issue with WP is just how much the set fears debuffs.

 

To add, I would pick WP if I am playing casually. Note, I think it is better on Brutes and Tanks due to more HP and hence regen. If I'm about the end game, Dark/sr. Back in the day the first build to hit 50 in a Hardcore SG was a Dark/sr Scrapper. 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Without_Pause

[Doomguide2005]

     If you are prone to Altitis and you don't care speeding to 50 then I'd say try them both.  If nothing else you'll find yourself drawn to one or the other or liking both.

     And welcome home!!

[Story Archer]

15 hours ago, Blackjoy said:

As it turns out, DM/SR has been my main on both Live and Homecoming.  And while I love the set, it would not be my top recommendation.

 

You haven't stated what difficulty level you want to run at, but assuming you're mainly interested in nothing higher than +2 by level 40, given these stated goals, I will tell you that you should absolutely run Anything/Regen.  For the last six months, I have been testing out the various secondaries with the same primary--savage melee.  I have been running nothing but IOs, with the sole exception of fully slotting Overwhelming Fear in Shred on all toons.  If you don't like /Regen, then I would recommend Radiation Armor.  Bio is also probably a good option too, though I have only tried it on a Tank.

 

First off, thank you very much for the time and energy expended in this response - you've given me a lot to consider as I reorient myself on the game I knew well years ago but have a great deal to catch up on now. It really felt like to me that DM/SR would have my bases covered with a self-heal as part of my attack chain. I've started a Katana/Willpower for now while I consider DM/SR vs. DM/Ninjitsu, since the +DEF of Divine Avalanche seems to help out a lot in the early levels. I also started a Dual Blades/Regen when I first returned - it was my second toon - and while I like it, I tend to prefer to focus my attentions on the fight, my positioning, the various threats I'm dealing with, etc. - pretty much everything except which defensive clicks I need to be making, so I'm not 100% certain it's for me. It always felt like you run into a fight and then spend the first half of it trying to manage your recovery from the Alpha.

 

I'm not 100% sure what difficulty level I'm going to be using, I figured I feel my way through and adjust it as I went - obviously I'd like to run on the hardest difficulty I reasonably can.

 

Again, thanks for the response, I'm re-reading it now to be sure I've absorbed the advice fully.

[Story Archer]

9 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

     If you are prone to Altitis and you don't care speeding to 50 then I'd say try them both.  If nothing else you'll find yourself drawn to one or the other or liking both.

     And welcome home!!

 

Thank you so much. :)

[Story Archer]

11 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

As Blackjoy mentioned, this partly depends on what level you are trying to solo. Also, once you hit 50, do you plan on using IOs on the character to further max it out? If you want to solo on lower content and just kind of explore the game as is, Kat/wp will absolutely work. IIRC, I got my Claws/wp brute to 50 on common IOs until I could go and add in sets. My only real issue with WP is just how much the set fears debuffs.

 

To add, I would pick WP if I am playing casually. Note, I think it is better on Brutes and Tanks due to more HP and hence regen. If I'm about the end game, Dark/sr. Back in the day the first build to hit 50 in a Hardcore SG was a Dark/sr Scrapper. 

 

As I mentioned, I'm basically focusing on those two now (Kat/WP and DM/SR), and I have no doubt that DeBuffs are going to be the bane of the former. I think I'll just run them both and see which 'feels' better, though I suspect WP will feel better early while SR will feel better late. we'll see. Thanks for the response.

[Doomguide2005]

3 hours ago, Story Archer said:

  --- though I suspect WP will feel better early while SR will feel better late. we'll see. Thanks for the response.

     I think there's a lot of truth in this statement.  For most I think WP is a much smoother leveling curve whereas SR is more a late bloomer.  Another thing to consider is running as a Tanker.  The term late bloomer starts to lose some meaning when you can get all your positions covered by level 20 or so (all toggles and passives chosen and slotted).  Add in a dose of the Tanker buffs to AoEs and you'll be pretty respectable for offensive output as well.  Not Scrapper or Brute levels of damage but more than enough to handle 99.99% of this game.  The only drawback really might come with teaming as right or wrong many will kind of assume you'll 'tank'.  Then again tanking these days mostly seems to consist of absorbing the alpha.  

     Divine Avalanche - in a mature build I'd be mostly using this towards slowing cascade defense failure (or other ugly debuffing situations).  Give myself time to withdraw long enough for the debuffs to fall off.   

     SR in general - I see a lot of comments like Blackjoys with respect to endurance usage.  I've personally never found SR any more difficult the most armors in terms of usage and the end cost of running the toggles is overall not significantly more than other sets.   But maybe it's just a good fit to my playstyle but ... *shrug*.  I do know my endgame build (Claws/SR/Body) runs the 3 toggles, Tough, Weave, Maneuvers, Tactics and Sprint (plus the essentially free Combat Jumping) non-stop and rarely bothers with Conserve Power or inspires beyond topping off the blue bar to free up inspire space.

[Blackjoy]

11 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

The only drawback really might come with teaming as right or wrong many will kind of assume you'll 'tank'

The drawback, IMO, is that it takes longer to get through missions.   Sure, you have more survivability, but it comes at the cost of killing speed. 

 

11 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

I've personally never found SR any more difficult the most armors in terms of usage and the end cost of running the toggles is overall not significantly more than other sets. 

The point is that many of "other sets" have endurance granting abilities, /SR, /Shield, /Dark, /Invul/ don't have +recover/Endurance.   All the other ten secondaries have some sort of +Recovery, +Endo, or Endo Discount.   

 

11 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

But maybe it's just a good fit to my playstyle but ... *shrug*.  I do know my endgame build (Claws/SR/Body) runs the 3 toggles, Tough, Weave, Maneuvers, Tactics and Sprint (plus the essentially free Combat Jumping) non-stop and rarely bothers with Conserve Power or inspires beyond topping off the blue bar to free up inspire space.

You're talking about lvl 50 and I guarantee  you're not running a straight IO build.   With procs and set bonuses, nobody should be having endurance issues.  None of of my scrappers have endurance issues by lvl 40 if I buy recovery procs and get set bonuses.  

 

The OP is talking about a leveling up....not the end game.   /SR will have health and endurance issues running IOs "leveling up".   Be prepared to take a knee....often.

 

 

[Blackjoy]

15 hours ago, Story Archer said:

As I mentioned, I'm basically focusing on those two now (Kat/WP and DM/SR), and I have no doubt that DeBuffs are going to be the bane of the former.

Debuffs don't really come on until the 40's.  And that's if you're running +3s.  The reason people talk about debuffs  a lot is due to a few specific circumstance's:

 

1.  Sappers.  Anyone who runs a non +DEF scrapper quickly learns about Sappers when they get to Peregrin Island and you generally won't you start fighting the Malta until Peregrine Island, so they have a minor impact overall.  But even +0 level Sappers can cause problems.

 

1.b Carnival.  These guys die and drain endo.  A few of them seem to have some serious endo drain powers.

 

2.  Cimerora (ITF) - The popularity of the ITF in Cimerora running at 4x8 has exposed the player base to the wonders of defense debuffing.   It's a rude awakening for many a /WP and /Regen scrapper/Brute/Tank who thinks their capped +RES and non-set +DEF is all that.  You can tack on all the CJ+Weave you want, and those +4 Bosses will eventually hit you and then the minions get on you like piranhas and you're faceplanting in like 10 seconds.  

 

This is why people talk about Defense Debuff Resistance like it's some holy trinity of /SR.   It's not.  Outside of Cimerora, there isn't that much defense debuffing.  Yes, IDF troops can do it, but Cimerora is on a whole other level of DD.   In fact, even /SR can be totally debuffed.  Take your /SR at soft cap and turn on all your /SR powers and sit in a group of 4x8 with multiple bosses.  If you just stand there and take it, they'll bring you down in about 30 seconds and they will have debuffed your defenses tremendously.  Yes, /SR's DDR helps, but it's overblown on account of that single ITF.

 

 3.  Slows.  Slows are the bane of click sets like /Regen.   Slows come on much earlier than other debuffs and they are more impactful because they are hurting a /Regen on both offense and defense.  Fortunately /Regen has Instant Healing and MoG which can bail you out of a bad situation.

 

4.  Negative To Hit.   You feels this more from specific bosses and elite bosses, and things like CoT Death Mages and Spectral Knights.

 

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Blackjoy

[Without_Pause]

I would add BP, Longbow, and Arachnos. In certain setups, they can give various builds all sorts of issues. I am talking about soloing on some level of x8, but I have done Arachnos missions where end was an issue and I was /stone. BP can handle a WP character their butt in breathtaking order.