Dual Pistols - Corruptor vs Defender, is there really a difference in the end?

[Zewks]

So Ive been pulling my hair out trying to compare these 2 concepts. The concept is simple. DP as the attack powerset, and any of the defender/corruptor support powers. Id be playing this character on a team. From what I can tell, Defender and Corruptor are like mirror opposites with the same power trees. Corruptor has higher damage, but lesser buff/debuffs, and Defender has higher buff/debuffs but lower damage.

 

Factoring out Scourge for the corruptor and Vigilance for the defender, the base damage value differences seem to compare to the difference for the other power pool (debuffs/buffs)

 

Corruptor - Pistols (1st DP power) : 41.71 damage (no scourge)

Defender - Pistols: 36.15 (no vigilance)

Corruptor - Poison - Envenom: -30% Res and Defense

Defender - Poison - Envenom:  -40% Res, 37.5% Defense

 

So the questions are:

 

• 1. Does the slightly increased buff/debuff values on the Defender balance out with the lower damage compared with the Corruptor? (Or does it come out behind or even ahead after all the math?)
• 2. Even WITH defender getting its full Vigilance buff, Mids shows that the Corruptor Scourge effect adds significantly more overall DPS. Does the increased buff/debuff values on the defender manage to keep it around the same damage output as a corruptor in this situation (is scourge even that good??)
• 3. Do either ATs get any unspoken additional benefits that would apply with the Dual Pistol powerset? Mids doesnt show the value differences for the swap ammo effects. Ive also read something about Defenders getting some better ability to proc damage from IO's? (not sure if this is true)

 

Lastly. This is not a character I will be twinking. I simply dont have enough inf or resources to do so. Its also not something that will most likely be getting rushed to 50, but rather, Ill be playing on normal mission farming teams where Id have to pull my own weight. So im not super concerned with how amazing one might be at 50 with full IO sets and such. How much of a pain, slog, hinderance its going to be to play it leveling up is a big concern as well.

 

[Uun]

1. It depends on the support set you're pairing it with. Some sets are much better on a defender, while others are "good enough" on a corruptor. If you're specifically considering Poison, I would go defender. Poison puts out some massive debuffs on a defender. 
2. Mids shows Scourge as either on or off, but it doesn't actually work that way. Scourge is dependent on your target's hp and kicks in below 50% health (25% chance to occur at 40% health, 50% at 30%, 75% at 20%, 100% at 10%). Because of  this mechanic, Scourge happens to work well with rain powers. Defender Vigilance is dependent on team size. You get a 30% damage buff solo, 20% with 1 teammate, 10% with 2 teammates, and 0% for 3 or more teammates. If you're soloing, there won't be much difference between defender and corruptor damage, but on a team, a corruptor will out damage a defender.
3. Any secondary effects of your attacks will be stronger on a defender. For example, the -res on Piercing Rounds is 20% on a defender and 15% on a corruptor. Same goes for -def, -speed, etc. Both defenders and corruptors have the same ability to use %procs (proc chances are based on the slotted power's recharge). One additional benefit that defenders get in general is that Vigilance also provides an endurance discount as your teammates health decreases.

If you want more detailed and complete power information than Mids provides, check out City of Data https://cod.uberguy.net/html/index.html

[twozerofoxtrot]

20 hours ago, Zewks said:

How much of a pain, slog, hinderance its going to be to play it leveling up is a big concern as well.

 

I duo'd this exact combo up to 20 with no twinking, as you mentioned. I'll just say there were painful points, and that keeping yourself in large teams will likely be the optimal way to go, at least early on.

 

This isn't any indicator of the endstate performance by the way. It's just that compared to other Defenders I've played, it had a really rough takeoff.

[Wimbochismo]

20 hours ago, Zewks said:

Ive also read something about Defenders getting some better ability to proc damage from IO's? (not sure if this is true)

 

The increase in buffs that a Defender gets also translates slightly into building. If you build a Defender and Corruptor in Mids with the exact same builds (the ATO's are very similar), the Defender will have higher defensive stats. If you're aiming for say 45 ranged defense, a Defender will hit that number more efficiently. This will effectively let you nix a ranged damage set in favor of proccing that power. To that end, a Defender build may allow you to proc more.

 

This is really a complex cost-benefit analysis that takes into account what you value more as a player. I've made a few Defender builds like ForceField/Water, where I was effectively making my teams immortal. I reached about level 30 before I realized that going Corruptor would still make my teams immortal, but now I'd be contributing more to dps. 

 

From a playstyle point, what do you focus on more? On a Defender I start a fight with debuffs, check that my team is buffed, hit heals when needed, and micro manage a few things before dpsing. On a Corruptor I start a fight with debuffs and then do dmg. I'd only heal if people are struggling and not worry about micro managing buff/debuff uptime as much - while that is still important.

 

The numbers are close enough that its down to stronger dps or stronger buffs/debuffs. The biggest difference to me comes down to the support set. If it is a very busy support set like Electric where you need to fire off those powers constantly, I go Defender. Here you have Poison which is very fire-and-forget, which I like on a Corruptor (I have a Beam/Poison). But again, its what you value more and how you are building it.

[Zewks]

17 minutes ago, Wimbochismo said:

 

I've made a few Defender builds like ForceField/Water, where I was effectively making my teams immortal. I reached about level 30 before I realized that going Corruptor would still make my teams immortal, but now I'd be contributing more to dps. 

 

 

 

This is my concern. If Corr is able to have the same end result as defender with its support/buff/debuff powers "capping" out, but still have higher dps, I question why anyone would choose defender?

 

Regardless, I ended up going Dark/DP Defender. The Dark powers are fire and forget, but they have such long activation times that its usually a bit before I can start using my attack powers.

Edited January 15 by Zewks

[Wimbochismo]

1 minute ago, Zewks said:

 

This is my concern. If Corr is able to have the same end result as defender with its support/buff/debuff powers "capping" out, but still have higher dps, I question why anyone would choose defender?

 

I'd argue that it depends on how this game values certain buffs and debuffs. Something like FF and Cold are going to blow past defense softcaps and "cap out" at a certain point, so going Corruptor might be more desirable. But then you look at Thermal with +resists and people rarely ever perfectly cap resistance. Pushing the edge of those resistance buffs on a Defender might be more worthwhile.

 

Same goes for something like +dmg, it'll eventually cap out for people, but that doesn't always occur outside of Kinetics. Debuffs also don't necessarily reach a cap.

 

I wouldn't sweat it too much. Some min/maxers may say why go Corruptor at all for dmg, go Blaster. With Poison there's no clear answer outside of more dps or more debuff power.

[roleki]

I always land on the side of Corruptor because of the way combat works in teams, and with Corruptors in particular.

 

Put it this way... you're on a full team going up against 54s.  You've got your usual mix of Blasters and Scrappers, and you're the Defender.  Maybe you start combat with a buff or debuff; your teammates are starting with their best available attack, usually their alpha.  By the time your superior buff/debuff numbers kick in, the hardest-hitting powers have already been fired off; your buffs are amping Flares and Chop or whatever.  There's a difference between a 10% damage buff on Flares and a 10% damage buff on Blaze.  Blaze has already been fired off, so now what?

 

Same scenario on a Corruptor... you dont bother attacking until Scourge is in play, so you spend a few moments chunking out buffs/debuffs. These don't hit as well as the Defender version, but really, who is disappointed that Flares only got a 7.5% damage buff, especially when you DO start attacking, you're chunking out at LEAST Brute-level damage at range.

 

Fights end quicker with Corruptors than with Defenders.  Quicker fights means faster mission clears.  Faster missing clears mean more missions.  More missions means more progression. 

 

Corruptor Uber Alles.

[High_Beam]

On 1/14/2024 at 12:31 PM, Zewks said:

This is not a character I will be twinking.

Straight up question, no sarcasm or joke intended; what does twinking mean in the game sense?  Because I only know one use of the word and you can get in trouble if you search for it at work which is where I am at right now.

[Uun]

1 hour ago, High_Beam said:

Straight up question, no sarcasm or joke intended; what does twinking mean in the game sense?  Because I only know one use of the word and you can get in trouble if you search for it at work which is where I am at right now.

From Urban Dictionary:

 

MMORPG: The very common practice of giving a lower level character items he could not have obtained on his own. Most MMORPGs have level requirements on items to reduce the effectiveness of twinking.

 

I twinked out my level one Sorceress with Tarnhelm, the Eye of Etlich, and two SOJs.

[High_Beam]

Okay.  Thank you.  Wash your enhancements before lending them out amiright?

[StarseedWarrior]

I would say it depends on the power combos you want some powers just benefit more for being more support and vice versa.

[The_Traveler]

I would say to look at the in-game tooltips... move the slider to level 50 and see the differences.  Some support powers equate to the same buff/debuff % on both corruptors and defenders, but the damage doesnt.  Assault Rifle T1, as an example, has a base of 90dmg for corruptor, while having a base of 38 for Defender and the T9 AutoFire is 255 for Corr and 111 for defender... WITHOUT vigilance or scourge.  Use the level 50 numbers because their damage scaling is different and more noticeable in the end.    Defender isnt getting the solo dmg buff when grouped, but check for yourself.

 

personally, i just see the small loss on defender buff/debuff as a wash in favor of feeling like i contribute to dmg AND support... Seeing Scourge numbers fly is a nice feeling too... like scrapper crits.

 

Ooooof... necro *facepalm*

Edited July 17 by The_Traveler

[Uun]

10 hours ago, The_Traveler said:

Assault Rifle T1, as an example, has a base of 90dmg for corruptor, while having a base of 38 for Defender and the T9 AutoFire is 255 for Corr and 111 for defender... WITHOUT vigilance or scourge. 

Incorrect. The in-game numbers for corruptors are very misleading and all include Scourge. Corruptors are 0.75 damage scale while defenders are 0.65; i.e., they only do 15% more base damage. Corruptor base damage is 45 for Burst and 126 for Full Auto.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/index.html

[The_Traveler]

On 7/17/2024 at 6:19 AM, Uun said:

Incorrect. The in-game numbers for corruptors are very misleading and all include Scourge. Corruptors are 0.75 damage scale while defenders are 0.65; i.e., they only do 15% more base damage. Corruptor base damage is 45 for Burst and 126 for Full Auto.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/index.html

i did not know this! thanks!