Upgrade installed enhancements option

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, nzer said:

18 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If they want to keep all their enhancement slots full with the newest DOs/SOs available to them at all times?

 

You're phrasing this as if it's an unreasonable thing, but it's not. The game already has a sliding scale of player power to cost in the form of the DO > SO > IO > IO set progression. I don't see any reason why an unsupported player should be unable to even use all of their enhancement slots on top of that. What does that add to the game?

And with that statement, your argument devolves from the enhancement system is too complex for new players to understand (which I obviously disagree with) to new players should be able to always have the freshest DOs/SOs slotted in all their enhancement slots. Which at least to me, completely nullifies the purpose of an enhancement system. With that reasoning? The devs should simply remove the enhancement system and make all powers automatically progress as if enhanced as the character levels. My understanding of your statement is "do away with the enhancement system". May as well incorporate even set IOs and their bonuses as automatic into characters at this point, because new players should be able to just not have to worry about getting enhancements. An extreme take of your comment? Yes, obviously. It is still fundamentally what you are saying.

[nzer]

25 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Which at least to me, completely nullifies the purpose of an enhancement system. With that reasoning? The devs should simply remove the enhancement system and make all powers automatically progress as if enhanced as the character levels. My understanding of your statement is "do away with the enhancement system". May as well incorporate even set IOs and their bonuses as automatic into characters at this point, because new players should be able to just not have to worry about getting enhancements. An extreme take of your comment? Yes, obviously. It is still fundamentally what you are saying.

 

The fact that it's an extreme take of my comment makes it literally not what I'm saying. This is a textbook slippery slope fallacy.

 

I mean think about it for a second. I already have all my slots filled at all times on all my characters, because I know how to make inf. Does that somehow invalidate the entire enhancement system? Of course not, how could it?

Edited February 6 by nzer
wording

[PatternGhost]

42 minutes ago, nzer said:

They're literally here because they were frustrated by an obvious missing piece in the basic gameplay systems.

More explanation of the basic systems (where to find your Salvage tray, what Salvage is, how to use the AH, etc.) would be a good thing. The player-driven economy not so much, because it's subject to change. It's up to the player to figure out how to best use the systems, or to seek out information from veteran players. That's a core aspect of an MMO, player interaction.

 

Having some lower-priced options for Enhancements that are easier to access and acquire up until the player becomes educated would be nice. If you're relying on selling your drops and influence drops (if you don't have boosted XP), even DOs are prohibitively expensive at some point.

 

45 minutes ago, nzer said:

Most modern MMORPGs intentionally do not require players to do research to meaningfully engage with basic gameplay systems

 

That's a reply to nothing I said. I said "make the most of." I agree with you that basic systems should be presented in game, in an obvious way. I disagree that most MMOs accomplish even this.

[nzer]

1 minute ago, PatternGhost said:

That's a reply to nothing I said. I said "make the most of." I agree with you that basic systems should be presented in game, in an obvious way. I disagree that most MMOs accomplish even this.

 

What I replied to was in response to me talking about exactly the same thing I'm talking about now. So if my comment was a reply to nothing you said, yours was a reply to nothing I said.

 

Ultimately, what I'm saying is that a new player should not have to actively research anything to be able to keep their slots filled with unexpired enhancements. That's baseline functionality, and the game should provide them with everything necessary for it. That doesn't mean they should have the very best enhancements at all times, not even close. Just that they shouldn't, at all times, have half their slots empty or expired. It sounds like we agree on that, to some degree.

[Rudra]

50 minutes ago, nzer said:

57 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Which at least to me, completely nullifies the purpose of an enhancement system. With that reasoning? The devs should simply remove the enhancement system and make all powers automatically progress as if enhanced as the character levels. My understanding of your statement is "do away with the enhancement system". May as well incorporate even set IOs and their bonuses as automatic into characters at this point, because new players should be able to just not have to worry about getting enhancements. An extreme take of your comment? Yes, obviously. It is still fundamentally what you are saying.

 

The fact that it's an extreme take of my comment makes it literally not what I'm saying. This is a textbook slippery slope fallacy.

 

I mean think about it for a second. I already have all my slots filled at all times on all my characters, because I know how to make inf. Does that somehow invalidate the entire enhancement system? Of course not, how could it?

Edited 13 minutes ago by nzer

Except, by your own arguments, that is not a valid defense. Because you know how to make inf' and keep yourself stocked in enhancements. The argument you were trying to make earlier, is new players don't know how to do that. So how is your statement that you can keep yourself stocked a defense against my argument that simply making the enhancements available to new players wouldn't essentially be the same thing as simply removing the enhancements and automatically incorporating enhancement improvements into your powers as you level?

 

The fact you defaulted to the very same argument being made against the OP boggles me. So is it a problem to get enhancements or not? Adding in previous admissions from those in favor of the OP that the game does not even need enhancements in powers until mid game, how are new players being hamstrung by the system? If the intent is to teach new players how the enhancement system works, and I am only talking about the enhancement system, then how is the current system failing to teach how to get and slot enhancements failing? The enhancement system is not failing even the newest of players if they did any of the tutorials and paid any attention to what the teaching contacts were telling them. The question then becomes, how to keep new players sufficiently supplied with DOs/SOs/IOs to fill out their powers. And the answer is either they turn to others for help either by requesting the requisite funds or requesting advice on how to improve their inf' gains, looking up a game guide or perusing the wiki, by doing the in-game tutorial arcs with their automatically assigned contacts at level 6, or they figure it out for themselves if that is their preference.

 

Players don't know something? They can ask in Broadcast or Help or Local. They don't want to talk to their fellow players? There are in game tutorials that address it, though they don't specify tricks for conversions which they really should not. They don't want to go through the tutorials or ask their fellow players? There are game guides and the wiki and the forums. They don't want to ask their fellow players, go through the tutorials, look up game guides, the forums, or the wiki? Then what more can we do for them? Seriously, what? The information is already being provided.

 

Edit: Absolutely serious when I asked "Seriously, what?". Because while there are comments that the enhancement system should be made simpler or that new players don't have access to certain information as a complaint? I haven't seen any proposed fixes in this thread. At all. The closest is my interpretation that new players should just basically get their enhancements automatically. Which at least to me is simply not an option.

 

Edited February 6 by Rudra
Edited to add missing "how".

[PatternGhost]

7 minutes ago, nzer said:

What I replied to was in response to me talking about exactly the same thing I'm talking about now.

 

Then maybe you should have quoted yourself? 🤷‍♂️

 

8 minutes ago, nzer said:

Ultimately, what I'm saying is that a new player should not have to actively research anything to be able to keep their slots filled with unexpired enhancements.

 

I agree this would be a good thing.

[nzer]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So how is your statement that you can keep yourself stocked a defense against my argument that simply making the enhancements available to new players wouldn't essentially be the same thing as simply removing the enhancements and automatically incorporating enhancement improvements into your powers as you level?

 

I'm sorry, but how on earth is it not a defense against that argument?

 

You're saying allowing new players to fill their enhancement slots is the same as completely removing the entire enhancement system and having the powers naturally improve with level. I'm telling you that I already have my enhancement slots filled, and that that does not in any way nullify my engagement with the enhancement system. I still have to choose which abilities to slot. I still have to choose how many slots to give them. I still have to choose what to put in those slots. Not only do those questions not go away because I'm able to fill all my slots, they're the most important questions the system forces players to ask in the first place.

 

I'm at a loss as to how to explain this to you, because it's practically tautological. In fact, I want you to try explaining, specifically, why you think a new player being able to have enhancements in all of their slots invalidates the entire enhancement system. Be extremely specific.

[Rudra]

Just now, nzer said:

 

I'm sorry, but how on earth is it not a defense against that argument?

 

You're saying allowing new players to fill their enhancement slots is the same as completely removing the entire enhancement system and having the powers naturally improve with level. I'm telling you that I already have my enhancement slots filled, and that that does not in any way nullify my engagement with the enhancement system. I still have to choose which abilities to slot. I still have to choose how many slots to give them. I still have to choose what to put in those slots. Not only do those questions not go away because I'm able to fill all my slots, they're the most important questions the system forces players to ask in the first place.

 

I'm at a loss as to how to explain this to you, because it's practically tautological. In fact, I want you to try explaining, specifically, why you think a new player being able to have enhancements in all of their slots invalidates the entire enhancement system. Be extremely specific.

Then just answer this one question: what is your proposed fix?

[PatternGhost]

 

On the one hand, the OP could have simply asked "How do I make enough inf to keep myself stocked with Enhancements?" and instead came here to ask for the game to change because he felt entitled to hours of work being put into changing the game to suit his unwillingness to ask for basic help.

 

On the other hand, drastically lowering the price of DOs so that anyone can keep updated with them seems like a reasonable thing, since games inevitably have players who don't seek help for various reasons. You can point out all the ways people can get help (/help chat, 'Help Me' flag, asking on forums, looking at YouTube, etc.), but not everyone will avail themselves of these options. Some people are socially awkward, some are tech challenged, etc. So, make DOs cheap, and let players figure out how to get the 'good stuff' after they've had some engagement with the game and are more invested, and more motivated to go get the help to figure things out. Seems reasonable. Not sure what dev time would be required, but likely it's changing some numbers in a spreadsheet or database, with perhaps some research to see how much an average new player generates through their normal routine.

 

Another option would be to make all drops of Enhancements usable by the player, where right now it's maybe 10-20% (wild guess). That way, they can equip their drops, vend what they don't want, and buy what they need.

Edited February 6 by PatternGhost

[nzer]

Just now, Rudra said:

Then just answer this one question: what is your proposed fix?

 

I haven't proposed a fix, and arguing that what I'm saying must be false because I haven't proposed a fix is fallacious on its face. My point is and has always been that the original criticism is perfectly valid, and that "well actually it's easy to make inf if you know how" and "if new players don't want help, they deserve to fend for themselves" are poor rebuttals.

 

It's not like it's hard to think of fixes though. Lowering the cost of DOs. Lowering the cost of upgrading (I don't know exactly how this cost is calculated, but e.g. providing a discount over the actual purchase cost of all the new enhancements when upgrading). Awarding significantly more inf from early story arcs is something I can't fathom anyone having a problem with, given that the money will only be used by new players to buy DOs or SOs.

 

At a certain point, the problem here stems, presumably, from very early game progression not having been updated to take into account the changes Homecoming has made to the base game, chief among them innate double xp.

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, PatternGhost said:

 

On the one hand, the OP could have simply asked "How do I make enough inf to keep myself stocked with Enhancements?" and instead came here to ask for the game to change because he felt entitled to hours of work being put into changing the game to suit his unwillingness to ask for basic help.

 

On the other hand, drastically lowering the price of DOs so that anyone can keep updated with them seems like a reasonable thing, since games inevitably have players who don't seek help for various reasons. You can point out all the ways people can get help (/help chat, 'Help Me' flag, asking on forums, looking at YouTube, etc.), but not everyone will avail themselves of these options. Some people are socially awkward, some are tech challenged, etc. So, make DOs cheap, and let players figure out how to get the 'good stuff' after they've had some engagement with the game and are more invested, and more motivated to go get the help to figure things out. Seems reasonable. Not sure what dev time would be required, but likely it's changing some numbers in a spreadsheet or database, with perhaps some research to see how much an average new player generates through their normal routine.

 

Another option would be to make all drops of Enhancements usable by the player, where right now it's maybe 10-20% (wild guess). That way, they can equip their drops, vend what they don't want, and buy what they need.

Dropping the price of DOs will also drop how much they sell for, maintaining the current system being complained about.

 

7 minutes ago, nzer said:

I haven't proposed a fix, and arguing that what I'm saying must be false because I haven't proposed a fix is fallacious on its face.

I didn't say that what you said was false because you didn't provide a fix. You're again putting words in my mouth like saying I am calling players that don't engage in chat assholes. Stop it. All I did was ask, what do you propose for a fix? We've been arguing in circles to absolutely no end, so all I want to know is what you propose for a fix.

 

7 minutes ago, nzer said:

Lowering the cost of upgrading (I don't know exactly how this cost is calculated, but e.g. providing a discount over the actual purchase cost of all the new enhancements when upgrading).

I don't know either, but I would hazard a guess it is likely the cost of the enhancement that you would be getting from a vendor for that new level. Which if it is, makes sense to me.

 

7 minutes ago, nzer said:

At a certain point, the problem here stems, presumably, from very early game progression not having been updated to take into account the changes Homecoming has made to the base game, chief among them innate double xp.

And as far as I can tell, the inf' was also increased. Back on Live, minions gave more XP than they did inf'. Lieutenants gave slightly more inf' than they did XP. And bosses gave more inf' in relation to their XP. The biggest issue I see with HC's progression is that we constantly accumulate Patrol XP which shifts that paradigm until it has all been expended. Once you get past any Patrol XP you may have? The XP to inf' ratio looks just like it did back on Live to me.

 

Edited February 6 by Rudra
Edited to correct "Your" to "You're" and "mouthy" to "mouth".

[nzer]

9 minutes ago, PatternGhost said:

So, make DOs cheap, and let players figure out how to get the 'good stuff' after they've had some engagement with the game and are more invested, and more motivated to go get the help to figure things out. Seems reasonable. Not sure what dev time would be required, but likely it's changing some numbers in a spreadsheet or database, with perhaps some research to see how much an average new player generates through their normal routine.

 

Another option would be to make all drops of Enhancements usable by the player, where right now it's maybe 10-20% (wild guess). That way, they can equip their drops, vend what they don't want, and buy what they need.

 

Yeah, all of this seems super reasonable to me.

[PatternGhost]

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Dropping the price of DOs will also drop how much they sell for, maintaining the current system being complained about.

 

Enhancements aren't the only drops to sell.  Also, you'd have less to buy if you only got usable drops.

 

Edit: Actually, just making all drops match your Origin would solve the problem for the most part.

Edited February 6 by PatternGhost

[nzer]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Dropping the price of DOs will also drop how much they sell for, maintaining the current system being complained about.

 

Inf from defeats and mission rewards wouldn't be affected, so you would still be getting more inf overall.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, PatternGhost said:

 

Enhancements aren't the only drops to sell.

True, but without testing it, I have to conclude it wouldn't change the system given that reducing price will also reduce gain. However, your comment to skew the drops to be usable by the player more often likely would have a positive impact.

[PatternGhost]

Yeah, I think if you get Origin matching drops (maybe only up to a certain level), you largely solve the problem.  A player can sell the drops they don't need to get the ones they do, but will still have a supply of "free" Origins to equip as they level.

[Terenos]

47 minutes ago, PatternGhost said:

Yeah, I think if you get Origin matching drops (maybe only up to a certain level), you largely solve the problem.  A player can sell the drops they don't need to get the ones they do, but will still have a supply of "free" Origins to equip as they level.

 

I posted this exact suggestion two weeks ago, and got the exact same pan of arguments that we've been having in this thread.

 

 

Somewhere there's something about helping new players with a minor change to the enhancement system that really sets people off. I feel like there's a feeling around here that all new players should have to suffer through the start of the game with a frustrating system just because we vets did. Suggestions to fix the system have been put in this thread multiple times: Lower the cost of early (1-20) DO enhancements; make enhancement drops more universal. But the rebuttals keep coming back to how easy it is to make inf, or that making these changes somehow destroys a low level economy that doesn't exist in any meaningful way. Selling enhancements to a vendor are not a major enough source of inf to afford enhancements until you start hitting higher levels (30+) where leveling slows down and enhancements start lasting longer and longer in comparison to the amount of inf you're taking in from a lot of sources. No one in this thread is disputing that it's possible to make inf and afford enhancements at any level if you know all the tricks. Those of us who are advocating for changes to the system are disputing that you should be required to learn those tricks to afford early enhancements just because that's the way it's always been. Research and min-maxing and learning optimal paths for alts should be something a player gets interested in once they're invested in the game and have joined the community, not as some sort of hurdle or litmus test requirement to do so.

[Rudra]

8 minutes ago, Terenos said:

 

I posted this exact suggestion two weeks ago, and got the exact same pan of arguments that we've been having in this thread.

 

 

Somewhere there's something about helping new players with a minor change to the enhancement system that really sets people off. I feel like there's a feeling around here that all new players should have to suffer through the start of the game with a frustrating system just because we vets did. Suggestions to fix the system have been put in this thread multiple times: Lower the cost of early (1-20) DO enhancements; make enhancement drops more universal. But the rebuttals keep coming back to how easy it is to make inf, or that making these changes somehow destroys a low level economy that doesn't exist in any meaningful way. Selling enhancements to a vendor are not a major enough source of inf to afford enhancements until you start hitting higher levels (30+) where leveling slows down and enhancements start lasting longer and longer in comparison to the amount of inf you're taking in from a lot of sources. No one in this thread is disputing that it's possible to make inf and afford enhancements at any level if you know all the tricks. Those of us who are advocating for changes to the system are disputing that you should be required to learn those tricks to afford early enhancements just because that's the way it's always been. Research and min-maxing and learning optimal paths for alts should be something a player gets interested in once they're invested in the game and have joined the community, not as some sort of hurdle or litmus test requirement to do so.

I can get behind skewing DO drop rates to providing correct origin more often, say 25-30%. I can't get behind all drops should be usable. (Edit: By that character for their powers. Selling or trading? Sure. They already are. Not for every enhancement that drops for your character is always going to be the correct origin.)

Edited February 6 by Rudra

[nzer]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

I can get behind skewing DO drop rates to providing correct origin more often, say 25-30%. I can't get behind all drops should be usable.

 

Why not? No one in this game is trading low level DOs, not even to alts. I can't imagine what the benefit of preserving this system would be.

[Rudra]

18 minutes ago, nzer said:

21 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I can get behind skewing DO drop rates to providing correct origin more often, say 25-30%. I can't get behind all drops should be usable.

 

Why not? No one in this game is trading low level DOs, not even to alts. I can't imagine what the benefit of preserving this system would be.

Someone said something about the goal of this thread being to teach new players how the enhancement system works and how to get the enhancements they want? Well, if all you do is just spoon feed the desired enhancements to the players and then they out level the arbitrarily decided cut off point, then congrats, all you did was shift the point at which the complaining starts.

 

(Edit: I still remember when I was a new player and how jarring it was to go from TO enhancements to DO enhancements. "Huh? Why can't I slot these new enhancements?!" That was my honest reaction when I got my first DO drops back on Live after just experiencing TOs up to that point.)

Edited February 7 by Rudra

[Terenos]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

Someone said something about the goal of this thread being to teach new players how the enhancement system works and how to get the enhancements they want? Well, if all you do is just spoon feed the desired enhancements to the players and then they out level the arbitrarily decided cut off point, then congrats, all you did was shift the point at which the complaining starts.

 

(Edit: I still remember when I was a new player and how jarring it was to go from TO enhancements to DO enhancements. "Huh? Why can't I slot these new enhancements?!" That was my honest reaction when I got my first DO drops back on Live after just experiencing TOs up to that point.)

 

We don't need to teach them how the enhancement system works, the game is surprisingly good at that through multiple tutorials. The assumption is not that new players are incapable of learning how to slot little orbs, it's that the cost of the system is too high for new players to utilize without having to look up outside guides on making infamy or efficient slotting techniques or just feeling like they're doing something wrong. We even added this neat little button that would automatically upgrade all your slotted enhancements for you instead of making them go to a vendor each time (it's just too bad that without outside knowledge or inf it's generally too expensive to use)! For players approaching the game with fresh eyes, it can be a frustration point that builds on top of the already frustrating task of dealing with 20-year old game and UI design - it doesn't need to be that way and any solution that makes getting and using enhancements more smooth can go a long way to getting those players to the point where they're comfortable enough to ask questions in chat or deep dive in the forums for build advice (and then run across other information - like making inf and the most efficient way to do enhancements, etc.).

 

I'm passionate about this less because I'm passionate about enhancements as a system, and more because I see it as one system of many that can make it a hard sell to get otherwise awesome people to stick around and enjoy CoH.

 

I'm also not really talking hypothetically here about player bounce when faced with so many old or revamped systems - when Homecoming announced the deal with NCSoft, I got a lot of friends asking me for advice about how to do this or how to do that or how to deal with some form of outdated UI decision. I ended up linking them to a lot of great threads here and writing up my own little guide that I could send them via Discord on stuff to do at the start to improve play experience. Many of them ended up shelving the game, though, because there was too much arcane knowledge required to make the early levels enjoyable - finding and keeping up on "gear" (their words, not mine) was just one of many bounce points.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Terenos said:

Many of them ended up shelving the game, though, because there was too much arcane knowledge required to make the early levels enjoyable - finding and keeping up on "gear" (their words, not mine) was just one of many bounce points.

Introduce them to IOs. Not even set IOs, I'm just talking the generic IOs. We can even see about having IOs mentioned in the tutorials. (Both the game introduction tutorials and the level 6+ ones.) My best guess is that what is turning them off from "keeping up on gear" is they are mentally stuck on gear from games like WoW. Where your gear never stopped working as long as you kept it from breaking. The best thing I can say for those players is to point out that they aren't equipping gear as evidenced by the lack of changes to their characters, they get to keep their characters looking how they wanted because of that, and they can still get gear-like enhancements starting at level 7 if they craft IOs.

 

Edit yet again: And what about pre-level 7? Take them to the P2W vendor and have them grab the prestige enhancements since they are basically free IOs. (And sure, maybe add a blurb in the pre-game tutorial to talk to the P2W vendor for better enhancements.)

 

(Edit: Can maybe even ask that when the player is sent to the university as part of the tutorial, it includes sending them to the IO tutorial contact with an introduction of sorts explaining he is the one that will tell them about IOs at level 10. Or maybe instead just includes a statement as part of the 'this is a university' popup that names the contact and his minimum level.)

 

(Edit again: And maybe lower the contact's level minimum to 7?)

Edited February 7 by Rudra

[Terenos]

37 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Introduce them to IOs. Not even set IOs, I'm just talking the generic IOs. We can even see about having IOs mentioned in the tutorials. (Both the game introduction tutorials and the level 6+ ones.) My best guess is that what is turning them off from "keeping up on gear" is they are mentally stuck on gear from games like WoW. Where your gear never stopped working as long as you kept it from breaking. The best thing I can say for those players is to point out that they aren't equipping gear as evidenced by the lack of changes to their characters, they get to keep their characters looking how they wanted because of that, and they can still get gear-like enhancements starting at level 7 if they craft IOs.

 

Okay, this is disputing the frame of my argument, not the point of it: not everyone has a "me" they can feel comfortable with reaching out to to ask questions.

 

Let's take another analogy to try to get to the heart of the matter. There is a room that is really cool, but to get into the room, you have to walk through a door. The top of the door frame is a little too short and the first time people come in to the room they will often hit their head on it on the way in. It's not a serious hit, no one is injured, but wow is it annoying to clip your head when you enter the room for the first time. Now, if I'm there at the entrance or if they call me, I can warn them about how they might hit their head on the door if they don't duck a little bit. There's also a whole bunch of reviews online advising that, if you want to enter the really cool room, you should duck when you get to the door.

 

But the really cool room isn't private, so there's people who end up going in without seeing any of those warnings or who don't have a friend who can warn them that the door is like that. And then they hit their head on that door frame - not because they don't understand how doors work, or because there's something wrong with them. It's just because this particular door is a little too short and a little too unlike other doors they've seen recently, and it's a little annoying, but that's okay because the room is really cool.

 

Except this is just one door that leads into the room. There are a bunch of other doors with varying height problems that aren't quite like other doors they've seen. And they have to pass through all of them to get fully into the really cool room. Some people will get frustrated and look up the reviews online, and see where they have to duck and make it to the really cool room a little flustered but wiser. Some people will soldier on, hit all the doors, and eventually get to the cool room and ask others, "hey, did you hit those doors on the way in, too?" and get the answers they need. Other people will hit some section of those doors and decide the really cool room can't be worth all this hassle and leave without ever getting to see what makes the really cool room really cool.

 

When we hear enough people complain about hitting their head on one of the doors to the really cool room, our response shouldn't be, "well why didn't you look this information up." It should be "why aren't we making the door easier to get through?"

 

57 minutes ago, Rudra said:

(Edit: Can maybe even ask that when the player is sent to the university as part of the tutorial, it includes sending them to the IO tutorial contact with an introduction of sorts explaining he is the one that will tell them about IOs at level 10. Or maybe instead just includes a statement as part of the 'this is a university' popup that names the contact and his minimum level.)

 

Good news! This is one of the changes being made with the next issue (which I'm very happy about). I think it's a big step in the right direction, but I honestly feel like some of the options we've discussed here would also go a long way to helping out new players just beyond this change without significantly impacting the game for vets.

[Rudra]

58 minutes ago, Terenos said:

 

Okay, this is disputing the frame of my argument, not the point of it: not everyone has a "me" they can feel comfortable with reaching out to to ask questions.

 

Let's take another analogy to try to get to the heart of the matter. There is a room that is really cool, but to get into the room, you have to walk through a door. The top of the door frame is a little too short and the first time people come in to the room they will often hit their head on it on the way in. It's not a serious hit, no one is injured, but wow is it annoying to clip your head when you enter the room for the first time. Now, if I'm there at the entrance or if they call me, I can warn them about how they might hit their head on the door if they don't duck a little bit. There's also a whole bunch of reviews online advising that, if you want to enter the really cool room, you should duck when you get to the door.

 

But the really cool room isn't private, so there's people who end up going in without seeing any of those warnings or who don't have a friend who can warn them that the door is like that. And then they hit their head on that door frame - not because they don't understand how doors work, or because there's something wrong with them. It's just because this particular door is a little too short and a little too unlike other doors they've seen recently, and it's a little annoying, but that's okay because the room is really cool.

 

Except this is just one door that leads into the room. There are a bunch of other doors with varying height problems that aren't quite like other doors they've seen. And they have to pass through all of them to get fully into the really cool room. Some people will get frustrated and look up the reviews online, and see where they have to duck and make it to the really cool room a little flustered but wiser. Some people will soldier on, hit all the doors, and eventually get to the cool room and ask others, "hey, did you hit those doors on the way in, too?" and get the answers they need. Other people will hit some section of those doors and decide the really cool room can't be worth all this hassle and leave without ever getting to see what makes the really cool room really cool.

 

When we hear enough people complain about hitting their head on one of the doors to the really cool room, our response shouldn't be, "well why didn't you look this information up." It should be "why aren't we making the door easier to get through?"

 

 

Good news! This is one of the changes being made with the next issue (which I'm very happy about). I think it's a big step in the right direction, but I honestly feel like some of the options we've discussed here would also go a long way to helping out new players just beyond this change without significantly impacting the game for vets.

Okay, let's use your really cool room with doors of odd height analogy. My answer to that? Put up warning signs. That is the point of the tutorials. Want to add a blurb that starting at level 7 they can start crafting IOs? Then we ask for it and probably have it added to the basic tutorials at the end after the new player has experienced the benefits of the tutorial given free enhancements. Warning sign for the first door, check. Then you include a blurb to see the P2W vendor, though I have to wonder why a new player wouldn't just see the P2W vendor right there and go "Oh look! This game has pay to win? Well, that kinda sucks, but let's see what is there", though I digress. You include a blurb in the tutorial where they are already telling the player about enhancements and give the 2 free enhancements, that they can get even better enhancements for free from the P2W vendor that will be nearby when they exit the tutorial to help get them started. Warning sign for second door (or second warning sign for first door?), check. Then when they go through the level 6+ arcs (provided they choose to go talk to the automatically assigned contact for those tutorials), they get introduced to the market and the university already. And the market one already states that players use it to make money. So warning sign for third door, check. And since those tutorials also introduce the player to the university, they are already right there where the crafting tutorial is, so warning sign for fourth door, check. If the devs can be convinced to skew the drop rates to say 25% or 30% origin match? (Because I'm willing to bet they will never agree to the 100% match even with an arbitrary level cap assigned.) Then now you have a crutch as well to get into that room.

 

Seriously, we have a tutorial that explains enhancement basics (the Break Out, Galaxy City, Outbreak, and Praetorian tutorials), another tutorial that again emphasizes enhancements as well as showing the player where they can find the market, how to access the market, and where they can find the university in the Twinshot and Dr. Graves arcs, a tutorial just for the IO crafting system available in Cap au Diable, Steel Canyon, and Imperial City available at level 10 (which I can agree should probably be available at level 7 since that is the earliest characters can slot IOs), and free enhancements that never degrade available from P2W. (Which is like right there when you enter the zone. Want them moved to be more visible? Fine.) New players have access to the information about how to get enhancements, how to get money to buy those enhancements, instruction for never degrades enhancements, and with a little bit of curiosity on their part, immediate access to free enhancements that also never degrade. The information is all there except for merit conversions and other tricks for maximizing inf' to buy their enhancements, and that information should not be presented to new players because like someone stated earlier, we can't expect it to stay that way.

 

You want an extra crutch for new players? I can agree with a slightly improved DO origin matching from drops.

 

Edit: Hells, you want to make it more obvious about the market being a source of revenue for players? Add a blurb stating that many things sell for more on the market than to vendors in the popup players get when they are sent to the market.

 

Edited February 7 by Rudra
Edited to correct "Preatorian" to "Praetorian". And again to add "new".

[Terenos]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

You want an extra crutch for new players? I can agree with a slightly improved DO origin matching from drops.

 

I think this is the difference in our opinions that probably won't be reconciled. I don't see making the early game slightly easier as providing a crutch. I see it as making sure we're not breaking people's legs right out the gate. I've enjoyed discussing this with you, but I think we're just going in circles now.