Upgrade installed enhancements option

[wmtyrance]

I just need to say this. For new players, the enhancement system is really confusing and expensive. You guys had a real option to help new players with that option to upgrade installed enhancements, but you had to make it insanely expensive for any new player to use. You should really reconsider bringing the cost down for new players.

[PatternGhost]

Influence is actually pretty easy to come by. I've been leveling with the XP boost, so not getting influence from kills. Yet I have plenty of influence for SOs as I level. Here's how.

 

I run through the storyline quests in Atlas that start with Matthew Habashy, and usually King's Row, too. Story quests marked "Hero" or "Villain" give Reward Merits at the end of the quest chain. These will appear in your Salvage inventory (above your power bar, to the right of Inspirations and Enhancements). You can also get them from task forces. DFB doesn't give them. I think that DIB doesn't either, but I'm not sure. Anyway, you do stuff,  you will accumulate Reward Merits.

 

Take those Reward Merits to a Merit Vendor. I buy the Enhancement Converters (in the Salvage category). You get three per Merit. They sell on AH usually from  60k-70k.

 

After you get your Converters, type /ah in the chat to open the Auction House interface. Drag one of the Converters into the lower section. List it for 1 Influence. Assuming they're going for 60k, you'll now have about 55k influence after AH fees. Now, drag the rest of your converters all at once (slider on the bottom, or type the number in the dialog that comes up when you drag to AH). Post those for 1 influence.

 

Atlas Park quests give a total of 9 Reward Merits. You can also tour the zone for an easy 8 more. That's 17 Merits from the starter zone, or 51 Converters.

 

55k x 51 = 2.8 million + Influence.

 

You can also sell other things, like Enhancement Unslotters for 800k (always around this price when I check, though ppl on forum always say a million each) at a price of 5 Merits/1 Unslotter. Just check the AH prices with the FIND button and see what's selling for more.

 

Pretty easy way to keep funded as you level, and pretty low effort. It's not the most efficient, maybe, but it's been working OK for me.

 

As for the Enhancement System while leveling. I'm keeping it simple by using Single Origin Enhancements from the vendors. Only a few things to keep in mind:

 

1. Remember to scroll down to the SOs on the vendor list, they're the more pricey ones, and as the name suggest, they'll only have one Origin (Science, Magic, etc.) in their description. The first SO is Accuracy, so scroll down to until you see Accuracy again, at a much higher price than the stuff above it.

2. Enhancements have seriously diminishing returns after the first three. So, don't slot more than 3 of any one Enhancement.

3. I slot my attacks for 1 Accuracy, 3 Damage, 1 Recharge Reduction and 1 Endurance Reduction in that order. Other things, I give what they need, based on what I observe. Cooldowns might get some Recharge Reduction, high End powers might get Endurance Reduction, etc.

4. Remember you'll be moving on from SOs later, but by then you'll also know more about the game.

5. You get a free respec every 10 levels, so don't worry about making any mistakes as you learn, and don't be afraid to experiment. You don't lose any Enhancements when you respec, unless your Enhancement inventory doesn't have space for them.

Edited February 4 by PatternGhost

[Doc_Scorpion]

18 hours ago, wmtyrance said:

You guys had a real option to help new players with that option to upgrade installed enhancements

Please, explain how this could have been done.

[Clave Dark 5]

On 2/3/2024 at 4:22 PM, wmtyrance said:

the enhancement system is really confusing and expensive

Confusing, possibly.  Take the time to read a guide or two, or the wiki and I think you'd have a good grasp on it.  The game has a lot of complexity in much of its areas, that's what MMOs are, as I understand it.  Unlike say a Mario game or something, they're made to engage you into their complex systems, not to play thru in 12 hours (or a week, or whatever) and be done with.  I've been annoyed by this too, but that's the nature of the beast, you adapt and learn, or just decide the game's not for you.

 

Expensive?  No.  The market's been rigged to allow people to have everything they want, unlike Live.*  Everything.  It may feel expensive upon first blush, but keep in mind two things: you don't need all the bells and whistles to play the game well (this "oh no, you need full sets of purples" is nonsense and also leads to people thinking the game is about farming  when it's not).  Secondly, the money will flow the higher level you get to, promise!  And once you get to 50 and keep playing that toon for a bit (not farming, not grinding, just playing), money will flow in.  I am the laziest money maker in this game and even I have enough for everything.

 

*My guess is that in this formerly-subscription-based game, we were given a system of gear that's all about the chase: we were never supposed to be able to get everything, but to keep plauing in hopes we could slowly over time, to keep us playing and paying.  Now?  It's all there for us, easily available, it really is.

Edited February 6 by Clave Dark 5

[Lockely]

On 2/3/2024 at 6:22 PM, wmtyrance said:

I just need to say this. For new players, the enhancement system is really confusing and expensive. You guys had a real option to help new players with that option to upgrade installed enhancements, but you had to make it insanely expensive for any new player to use. You should really reconsider bringing the cost down for new players.

 

You might want to refine this and post as a new player over in the Beta Focused Feedback: New Player Experience thread. 

 

For everyone else:

 

As discussed in detail in the "Is the in-game economy weird and broken?" thread over in general, for a new player the market seems like a daunting 300 step list of things to do before you can afford anything. (See PatternGhost's post above.)

 

It really shouldn't. 

 

I don't know if the solution to that is to bring the costs of DOs and SOs down a bit so they can be more affordable for new players or maybe nudging drop rates to more match the players origin or what, but we shouldn't be dismissing the feedback of new blood and dumping three wikis worth of info on them as they struggle through their first character and then expecting them to stick around long enough when they're wiffing 3/4 of their attacks and hitting like sponges while getting totally wrecked by even/+1/+2 conned mobs.

 

As soon as they max out, they're going to quickly find themselves rolling in Inf and funding their alts, but most people forget the struggle of their first character once they're six alts in.

Edited February 5 by Lockely

[PatternGhost]

16 hours ago, Lockely said:

a daunting 300 step list of things to do before you can afford anything. (See PatternGhost's post above.)

 

16 hours ago, Lockely said:

dumping three wikis worth of info on them

 

It's really not this bad. I gave detailed instructions because the player is new. I haven't played since 2012, FWIW. This is a very simple process:

 

1. Get Merit Badges.

2. Buy Enhancement Converters with the Merit Badges.

3. List them on the Auction House.

 

That's 3 steps, not 300.

 

We're not talking about getting deep into the crafting system or AH item flipping, or anything at all that requires a deep understanding of the in game economy. It's FAR easier to make in game currency in this game quickly than in any other MMO that I've played, and I've played many.

 

What I outlined lets a new player self fund SOs while leveling, so they can learn the Enhancement system, including experimenting.

 

The answer to the problem isn't to bring costs down, it's to learn to play the game. Can the game help with this? Certainly, more in game tips or tutorials would be nice in many areas. There's also a friendly community here who's willing to help. It's much easier to fund oneself while leveling here than it was on Live. I haven't capped a character yet, but apparently end game builds are also much cheaper. So, the costs seem to have already been brought down.

[macskull]

When the enhancement upgrade system was implemented, the topic of cost was brought up, and the response from the dev team was that players are expected to at least minimally interact with the market while leveling to generate inf to afford the upgrades. That could be as simple as selling your unwanted drops, or it could be more involved, but using the market to make inf (or find the enhancements you need cheaper than you can get them from the vendors) is expected.

[biostem]

On 2/3/2024 at 6:22 PM, wmtyrance said:

I just need to say this. For new players, the enhancement system is really confusing and expensive. You guys had a real option to help new players with that option to upgrade installed enhancements, but you had to make it insanely expensive for any new player to use. You should really reconsider bringing the cost down for new players.

Didn't they change the enhancement upgrade process, so instead of going from 10 to 10+ and such, that it just becomes 11?  The larger issue, IMHO, is that there's this false assumption that your typical character, while leveling up, *should* be able to maintain the maximum bonus from all their enh's.   While better informing new players on the enhancement system is a lofty goal, I think part of any such efforts should include setting a reasonable expectation on just how well or up-to-date their character should be loaded out with enhancements under level 50 or so...

[A.I.D.A.]

Don't slot anything but the five prestige enhancements 'til 22, then get crafted Lv. 25 IOs. Those will last you 'til 50 easily. And before 22, you really, really don't need them.

[Terenos]

The problem is that enhancements are a system that the game tells players they should be interacting with from the start. I don't think lowering the cost of SO's is necessary, but certainly lowering the cost of DOs within the first 20-25 levels should be considered. Not all players are enfranchised players, or research-focused players, and it takes time for a lot of people to want to do deep dives into guides for a game they may have picked up for a little fun.

 

I don't want to minimize the advice here - it's useful for a new player to learn so they can maximize their experience in the long-term and for the many alts they're likely to make, but brand new players should not be expected to know that the market is the main way to make inf to afford even DOs that substantively improve the experience of the game (not missing as much, not having to wait as long for powers to recharge, etc.).

 

If the advice we're providing here is not in-game, then it may as well not exist for some people, especially those approaching the game for the first time. I, for one, would rather the early enhancement system just be good enough to help players get to the point where the question we get is from level 20-25's asking "So how do I afford these SO's?" and then launching into an explanation of how IOs are cool or how to convert Merits into an appreciable amount of inf. Expecting a player to launch into a research dive is a great way to see them bounce off the game entirely.

[Rudra]

43 minutes ago, Terenos said:

The problem is that enhancements are a system that the game tells players they should be interacting with from the start. I don't think lowering the cost of SO's is necessary, but certainly lowering the cost of DOs within the first 20-25 levels should be considered. Not all players are enfranchised players, or research-focused players, and it takes time for a lot of people to want to do deep dives into guides for a game they may have picked up for a little fun.

 

I don't want to minimize the advice here - it's useful for a new player to learn so they can maximize their experience in the long-term and for the many alts they're likely to make, but brand new players should not be expected to know that the market is the main way to make inf to afford even DOs that substantively improve the experience of the game (not missing as much, not having to wait as long for powers to recharge, etc.).

 

If the advice we're providing here is not in-game, then it may as well not exist for some people, especially those approaching the game for the first time. I, for one, would rather the early enhancement system just be good enough to help players get to the point where the question we get is from level 20-25's asking "So how do I afford these SO's?" and then launching into an explanation of how IOs are cool or how to convert Merits into an appreciable amount of inf. Expecting a player to launch into a research dive is a great way to see them bounce off the game entirely.

There are 5 free enhancements that players can grab starting at level 1, are listed as some of the best enhancements available in the game up to level 21, can be grabbed as often as the character wants without limit up to level 20(?), and the bonuses never degrade as you level up. Problem of low level enhancements solved. Just need a way to let new players know to talk to the P2W vendor and grab them. (Edit: I mean besides using the Help channel, using Broadcast, or just in general asking others for help that I wonder why they aren't options to expect new players to use.)

Edited February 6 by Rudra

[Terenos]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

There are 5 free enhancements that players can grab starting at level 1, are listed as some of the best enhancements available in the game up to level 21, can be grabbed as often as the character wants without limit up to level 20(?), and the bonuses never degrade as you level up. Problem of low level enhancements solved. Just need a way to let new players know to talk to the P2W vendor and grab them.

 

That's a band-aid at best. It's a good band-aid, and I think they really are great enhancements that carry very well into the low 30's, but it doesn't address that there's an entire system that players aren't expected to interact with until (according to all our common advice) level 22, but is introduced at level 1 and then we assign useless slots every odd level starting at 3.

 

If we don't need enhancements until 22, then the solution to the problem is even simpler: get rid of enhancement slots, force a respec at 22, and then introduce enhancement slots and enhancements then trigger the University IO quest. (Yes, this is a hyperbolic argument, but I'm hoping it gets my point across).

 

We've had a bit of this back-and-forth previously and I expect we have a fundamentally different approach to the early game and how we feel players should experience the game. The advice of "wait until 22" makes me think that a lot of people feel like 1-22 is a part of the game to be endured rather than one to be experienced and to learn the game (including slotting and using enhancements) without having to look up a guide or feel they have to ask in chat for what is presented at level 1 as a key part of the system. My defense here isn't that there shouldn't be a more efficient way to do things, and I'm not advocating that the advice presented is bad, but what I am saying is that the system as it exists is not new-player friendly.

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, Terenos said:

 

That's a band-aid at best. It's a good band-aid, and I think they really are great enhancements that carry very well into the low 30's, but it doesn't address that there's an entire system that players aren't expected to interact with until (according to all our common advice) level 22, but is introduced at level 1 and then we assign useless slots every odd level starting at 3.

 

If we don't need enhancements until 22, then the solution to the problem is even simpler: get rid of enhancement slots, force a respec at 22, and then introduce enhancement slots and enhancements then trigger the University IO quest. (Yes, this is a hyperbolic argument, but I'm hoping it gets my point across).

 

We've had a bit of this back-and-forth previously and I expect we have a fundamentally different approach to the early game and how we feel players should experience the game. The advice of "wait until 22" makes me think that a lot of people feel like 1-22 is a part of the game to be endured rather than one to be experienced and to learn the game (including slotting and using enhancements) without having to look up a guide or feel they have to ask in chat for what is presented at level 1 as a key part of the system. My defense here isn't that there shouldn't be a more efficient way to do things, and I'm not advocating that the advice presented is bad, but what I am saying is that the system as it exists is not new-player friendly.

They are told by the game to interact with the enhancement system. And there are free enhancements that grant a damage/recharge bonus with a damage proc that they can just walk up to the vendor and grab to slot in their powers. Using those enhancements is interacting with the enhancement system. And even better for the new players? They are absolutely free with no apparent limit to how many they can grab. (They just can't sell them.)

 

Edit: DOs drop randomly from enemies starting at level 1. The tutorials give players two free level 1 enhancements and tell them how to slot and use them. P2W gives players an unlimited number of free damage/recharge/damage proc enhancements until level 19-20. How are new players not interacting with the enhancement system? And why are free IOs only a band-aid to learning the system?

Edited February 6 by Rudra

[Terenos]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

They are told by the game to interact with the enhancement system. And there are free enhancements that grant a damage/recharge bonus with a damage proc that they can just walk up to the vendor and grab to slot in their powers. Using those enhancements is interacting with the enhancement system. And even better for the new players? They are absolutely free with no apparent limit to how many they can grab. (They just can't sell them.)

 

I don't disagree with you. Those five enhancements are great, and new players should absolutely be directed to them and using them. I just also think that early on players should be able to interact with more than just those five enhancements without as much friction (looking up a guide outside the game to learn about using merits to make inf on the market, or about relative levels of IOs to purchased enhancements). I know it's unpopular to bring it up, and I'm completely in favor of having gotten rid of them, but TOs were a good opportunity for new players (and I mean new players, not new characters) to interact with the enhancement system.

 

Sometimes things need to exist that aren't the most efficient to make adoption easier in a game.

[Doc_Scorpion]

33 minutes ago, Rudra said:

There are 5 free enhancements that players can grab starting at level 1, are listed as some of the best enhancements available in the game up to level 21

They're some of the best enhancements available for the very limited number of things they're available for.  It's the other 80% of the enhancements you might have occasion to need that are the problem.

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

They're some of the best enhancements available for the very limited number of things they're available for.  It's the other 80% of the enhancements you might have occasion to need that are the problem.

Sorry, but I'm still not seeing the problem. Except for buffs/debuffs, armors/shields, and heals; a damage/recharge/damage proc can be slotted into any character's starting powers. Even Controller and Dominator starting primary powers inflict damage and can accept the enhancements. (With Dominators being able to slot them into their secondaries as well.) Shields like Cold Domination's Ice Shield and the various armors can't use them, sure, but at low levels you aren't really hurting by not getting free enhancements for those. Particularly with the armor sets as their cumulative END costs don't start being noticeable until you have several running at once. Same with heals, buffs, and debuffs. Those aren't in any real need for being enhanced at low levels because their base amounts are more than enough to make low level mobs near ineffective. By the time a player's character gets high enough in level to start having enough powers those free enhancements are not really helping any more, the inf' saved by not having to procure those free enhancements (pretty much ever until you're ready and situated to replace them) coupled with just mob dropped DOs (and occasional SO), mob awarded inf', mission/arc awarded inf', arc awarded merits, salvage and recipe drops (at least when you get above level 6 for recipes), and merits gained for exploring the zones; players should be able to get either some basic IOs crafted at the universities or DOs to keep them afloat.

 

(Edit: Especially if the concern is getting new players familiar with the enhancement system. The crutches available to us now for low level characters is absolutely amazing.)

 

Edit again: I'm fine with finding ways to make the information more available to new players, but other than overhauling the tutorials and again forcing players through them, I don't really see a way to do so. I mean, that's why game guides exist in the first place. Whether MMO or stand alone. To give players more access to game information than what can be crammed into a tutorial. And that is the biggest advantage of playing a MMO like CoX. New players can ask other players for tips, tricks, and other guidance.

 

Edited February 6 by Rudra
Edited to add missing semi-colon. And again to add ", mob awarded inf', mission/arc awarded inf', arc awarded merits, salvage and recipe drops (at least when you get above level 6 for recipes), and merits gained for exploring the zones".

[Terenos]

7 hours ago, Rudra said:

Sorry, but I'm still not seeing the problem. Except for buffs/debuffs, armors/shields, and heals; a damage/recharge/damage proc can be slotted into any character's starting powers. Even Controller and Dominator starting primary powers inflict damage and can accept the enhancements. (With Dominators being able to slot them into their secondaries as well.) Shields like Cold Domination's Ice Shield and the various armors can't use them, sure, but at low levels you aren't really hurting by not getting free enhancements for those. Particularly with the armor sets as their cumulative END costs don't start being noticeable until you have several running at once. Same with heals, buffs, and debuffs. Those aren't in any real need for being enhanced at low levels because their base amounts are more than enough to make low level mobs near ineffective. By the time a player's character gets high enough in level to start having enough powers those free enhancements are not really helping any more, the inf' saved by not having to procure those free enhancements (pretty much ever until you're ready and situated to replace them) coupled with just mob dropped DOs (and occasional SO), mob awarded inf', mission/arc awarded inf', arc awarded merits, salvage and recipe drops (at least when you get above level 6 for recipes), and merits gained for exploring the zones; players should be able to get either some basic IOs crafted at the universities or DOs to keep them afloat.

 

(Edit: Especially if the concern is getting new players familiar with the enhancement system. The crutches available to us now for low level characters is absolutely amazing.)

 

 

 

I think we're coming at this from different perspectives. Yes, what you're describing is the most efficient way for a new character to do enhancements and manage infamy. But none of this is knowledge that new players come into the game with. I say this as someone who knows the little tricks to gaining infamy at early levels, who knows what the best to things are to buy with merits, and the easiest ways to kit out a character - looking at a screen like this just feels terrible (19 blaster), so many empty slots! And with just the infamy I've earned from doing missions and arresting baddies, it's not enough to fill those slots up. It feels like I'm wasting potential here.

 

 

Now, do I need enhancements in these? I and you, as veteran players, know the answer is no - this character will be able to do missions just fine, and if I miss here and there it's not the end of the world.

 

But if I'm a new player and I've been told that enhancements are a thing I should use by the tutorials, it's incredibly frustrating to realize that between drops and trying to buy them, and then dealing with the fact that I'm leveling past some of them that I can't keep up.

 

(Yes, I'm aware I don't actually need to upgrade the stuff in the screenshot to 22, but it's hard to kit out a build with low enough level DOs at 19, and this screenshot was more to demonstrate the cost of upgrading)

 

The requests to improve availability of low level DOs through price is not an efficiency thing. As vets, we know it's not the most efficient use of resources and no one here is arguing that the way to do enhancements you're describing is not objectively correct (it totally is).

 

But the game experience of people who start and are willing to read the forums, or willing to ask questions in the in-game chat (because the community is always very helpful when this question comes up in-game) are going to be very different to people who download the game, maybe play with a friend just as new as them, and then see they can't fill all those slots and start seeing their accuracy go down as they level up and their stamina running out mid-fight faster and faster as they get more abilities and then never think to even ask the question of is there a more efficient way to do this.

 

Enhancements requiring the level of institutional knowledge you're describing is not something that new players should be expected to deal with during the early levels of the game. They shouldn't have to know the most efficient way to spend merits, how and what to post on the AH to get a good inf/merit threshold, and what the break points are for where IOs overtake SOs. I get that we all learned this eventually, and that there are resources outside the game that are really helpful to new players. But they're outside the game. and the advice we give on this as vets is not something that's apparent during the normal course of play. Obtaining and maintaining enhancements as they currently are, in the early (sub-22) levels of the game, is a frustrating experience without help that has to come from outside the game - they shouldn't have to be.

[Rudra]

57 minutes ago, Terenos said:

 

I think we're coming at this from different perspectives. Yes, what you're describing is the most efficient way for a new character to do enhancements and manage infamy. But none of this is knowledge that new players come into the game with. I say this as someone who knows the little tricks to gaining infamy at early levels, who knows what the best to things are to buy with merits, and the easiest ways to kit out a character - looking at a screen like this just feels terrible (19 blaster), so many empty slots! And with just the infamy I've earned from doing missions and arresting baddies, it's not enough to fill those slots up. It feels like I'm wasting potential here.

 

 

Now, do I need enhancements in these? I and you, as veteran players, know the answer is no - this character will be able to do missions just fine, and if I miss here and there it's not the end of the world.

 

But if I'm a new player and I've been told that enhancements are a thing I should use by the tutorials, it's incredibly frustrating to realize that between drops and trying to buy them, and then dealing with the fact that I'm leveling past some of them that I can't keep up.

 

(Yes, I'm aware I don't actually need to upgrade the stuff in the screenshot to 22, but it's hard to kit out a build with low enough level DOs at 19, and this screenshot was more to demonstrate the cost of upgrading)

 

The requests to improve availability of low level DOs through price is not an efficiency thing. As vets, we know it's not the most efficient use of resources and no one here is arguing that the way to do enhancements you're describing is not objectively correct (it totally is).

 

But the game experience of people who start and are willing to read the forums, or willing to ask questions in the in-game chat (because the community is always very helpful when this question comes up in-game) are going to be very different to people who download the game, maybe play with a friend just as new as them, and then see they can't fill all those slots and start seeing their accuracy go down as they level up and their stamina running out mid-fight faster and faster as they get more abilities and then never think to even ask the question of is there a more efficient way to do this.

 

Enhancements requiring the level of institutional knowledge you're describing is not something that new players should be expected to deal with during the early levels of the game. They shouldn't have to know the most efficient way to spend merits, how and what to post on the AH to get a good inf/merit threshold, and what the break points are for where IOs overtake SOs. I get that we all learned this eventually, and that there are resources outside the game that are really helpful to new players. But they're outside the game. and the advice we give on this as vets is not something that's apparent during the normal course of play. Obtaining and maintaining enhancements as they currently are, in the early (sub-22) levels of the game, is a frustrating experience without help that has to come from outside the game - they shouldn't have to be.

You're right, we are coming at this from different perspectives. Because for me, even when I was a new player and during the times I was assisting new players, enhancements and figuring out what to enhance when, what to prioritize for my play style, especially knowing that I was obviously not getting enough enhancements just from drops or influence from defeats/mission awards to buy enhancements to keep my character slotted; that was as much part of playing and enjoying the game as figuring out how to manage my endurance, how to utilize my powers, and how to tackle the different factions I was encountering as I progressed. Even now, as a veteran player, because I don't typically interact with the market system and because I don't use merits the way others recommend to make inf' to get enhancements, even at level 50, my characters have huge gaps in their enhancement slotting. (Yes, I have completed, fully incarnated 50s that can provide funds to my other characters, but that is a very limited supply. I am not awash in money in the game. Just like a new player, when I make a new character, I have to be choosy about my enhancements. To me, that is very much part of playing the game.)

 

I only ever had 1 character that always had enhancements slotted in every power. And that character always had the highest level enhancements available for the character slotted. (Well, almost. Sometimes I couldn't afford to replace all my enhancements when I got to within 3 of the next SO, just most.) And this was before there were IOs and before ED. How? I was playing a Dark Melee/Dark Armor Scrapper. I couldn't use more than one of my armors at a time. Even with multiple accuracy enhancements slotted, I almost never hit same level minions (or even -1 minions), and so I was defeated a lot. I had roughly 5 levels of debt accumulated and I couldn't reduce that. (Which can't happen any more because of the debt cap the Live devs added to the game.) Because I had so much debt, my leveling was severely stunted. Because my leveling was severely stunted, I was amassing lots of influence for each time I leveled up so I could just go buy new SOs each time I got within 3 levels of them. (Not something I would recommend putting new players through. However, it does serve to illustrate how learning for your own play style what enhancements are your priorities for your priority powers is very much part of playing the game to me.) (Bear in mind, I finally encountered someone who told me I was running a Dark Melee wrong, and following his advice, I stopped losing. The advice? Slot my attacks with 5 red enhancements and forget accuracy. Suddenly, even +3 mobs were just curling up and dying. Then ED hit and that strategy for enhancing went out the window.)

 

Yes, I'm sure new players to the game would appreciate being able to just slot enhancements as they go, but if that was possible, then why even have the enhancement system in the first place? Someone earlier in the thread said this wasn't like a Mario game. And I agree. Nothing, not even enhancements, should be an immediate "Here you go, just keep slotting these" because at least to me, that very much undercuts the whole reason of having the systems the game has in the first place. New players will get enough DOs to interact with the enhancement system and learn it just from drops. They also have immediate access to 5 varieties of damage/recharge/damage proc enhancements for free to give them an extra leg up on the game. And the tutorials explain to them what enhancements are, what they do, and how to slot them. They may not be able to maximize their powers, but at least to me, figuring out what to prioritize and managing your power enhancements is very much part of playing and enjoying the game.

 

Edit: As for new players that don't think to ask for help from the other players they can see running around in the game and know are out there because they chose to download and play an MMO, and because there are chat channels immediately on their screen that with any amount of investigation shows there is a Help channel? I see no reason to bend over backwards to cater to them. To me at least, they obviously don't want the help because they are confident they can figure it out for themselves. So in my opinion? Let them.

Edited February 6 by Rudra

[nzer]

On 2/3/2024 at 6:44 PM, PatternGhost said:

Influence is actually pretty easy to come by. I've been leveling with the XP boost, so not getting influence from kills. Yet I have plenty of influence for SOs as I level. Here's how.

 

I typically defend this kind of thing as not actually being that complicated or hard to understand, but just to be clear, a new player is not going to know they can do this, and nothing in the game is going to tell them. They will also almost certainly not be trawling through the forums, and so will not come upon this information on their own unless they decide to google around for how to make influence, which is something many people are actually averse to doing.

 

So this criticism is 100% fair. Even as someone who has tons of inf from doing enhancement conversations, I was shocked the first time I pressed the upgrade button on one of my low level characters. Even just in the mid teens, it can take hundreds of thousands of inf to upgrade a couple dozen SOs. It's ridiculous.

 

And I'm not sure what the benefit of that from a game design perspective is. Players who know the "correct" ways to make inf will never have a problem keeping a lowbie character outfitted with up to date SOs, and players who don't will barely be able to use SOs at all, let alone keep them reasonably current. Even using DOs, I have to imagine a new player would be hard pressed with just the raw inf from defeats and missions.

 

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

As for new players that don't think to ask for help from the other players they can see running around in the game and know are out there because they chose to download and play an MMO, and because there are chat channels immediately on their screen that with any amount of investigation shows there is a Help channel? I see no reason to bend over backwards to cater to them. To me at least, they obviously don't want the help because they are confident they can figure it out for themselves. So in my opinion? Let them.

 

This is so needlessly mean-spirited. Believe it or not, many people enjoy running around a game world filled with other people and maybe occasionally playing on a PuG team but either don't enjoy directly conversing with random internet strangers or have been conditioned to avoid it at all costs because of past experiences with toxicity. This is especially the case with global chat channels, which in most games are utter cesspools.

 

I don't see any reason at all to assume players who want to mostly keep to themselves are assholes, and to punish them accordingly. The world isn't going to end if the game is changed to be a little more hospitable to more solo-oriented players.

Edited February 6 by nzer

[Captain Fabulous]

Unpopular opinion: not everything needs to be spoon fed to new players. It's OK for them to discover how things work on their own. It's part of the beauty of MMOs, figuring out what does and doesn't work. We were all new players once, and we all did just fine. It's part of the process.

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, nzer said:

his is so needlessly mean-spirited. Believe it or not, many people enjoy running around a game world filled with other people and maybe occasionally playing on a PuG team but either don't enjoy directly conversing with random internet strangers or have been conditioned to avoid it at all costs because of past experiences with toxicity. This is especially the case with global chat channels, which in most games are utter cesspools.

 

I don't see any reason at all to assume players who want to mostly keep to themselves are assholes, and to punish them accordingly. The world isn't going to end if the game is changed to be a little more hospitable to more solo-oriented players.

Edited just now by nzer

Nowhere am I calling a player that chooses to not engage in chat an asshole. So I very much do not appreciate you saying I am. What I am saying is that the information is available for the asking and the players that choose not to ask have their reasons for not doing so. And the people that I know and play with (in many games) do so because they want to figure things out for themselves. So they specifically avoid looking up game guides and they specifically avoid asking others for tips/advice. And as those are the only people I have ever met that are so adverse to asking for help or looking anything up, that is the type of person I expect to not ask for help in game or go looking for the information that we already have available to us.

 

Also, bear in mind that I am a solo-oriented player and always have been since before I even came across this game and started playing it back on Live. And as a solo-oriented player, I am still willing to reach out to others for tips and advice. The insinuation that just because a player is more solo-oriented and prefers to keep to themselves in game and so is unwilling to even ask for help or advice, or go looking for information, is downright insulting to me.

[nzer]

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Nowhere am I calling a player that chooses to not engage in chat an asshole. So I very much do not appreciate you saying I am.

 

I got what seemed like a fairly obvious "these players see people running around and posting in help channels and still don't ask for help? They don't deserve to be catered to, let them fend for themselves" vibe from your edit. If that's not what you meant then I guess I apologize, but I'll take this opportunity to point out that no, not everyone who doesn't ask for help is doing it specifically because they want to solve some kind of puzzle on their own. Many of them genuinely just don't enjoy or don't feel comfortable reaching out to a general chat channel or directly messaging another player. In fact, in my experience such people vastly outnumber the people you're talking about. I would guess that even on Homecoming a good 50% or more of the players logged in at any particular time are these kinds of people.

 

Regardless, I still have no idea what the value is in forcing new players to reach out for help just to use enhancements in any meaningful capacity is. I mean have any of you tried leveling a fresh character with just story arcs, no outside investment, and without the AH? Maybe it gets better at higher levels or something, but early on you don't get enough enhancement drops or enough inf to keep all your slots filled with active enhancements. Maybe you would if you were still restricted to TOs until level 12 and DOs until level 22 and didn't have Homecoming's innate double xp?

 

Like, there's a difference between "let's not spoon-feed new players" and "players need to figure out how to exchange reward merits into converters and sell them on the AH just to meaningfully engage with basic gameplay systems."

 

24 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Also, bear in mind that I am a solo-oriented player

 

No, you're misinterpreting how I used that term. I was using it to refer to the players I described in the preceding sentence, that being players who, for whatever reason, aren't inclined to reach out broadly for help.

[Rudra]

20 minutes ago, nzer said:

Regardless, I still have no idea what the value is in forcing new players to reach out for help just to use enhancements in any meaningful capacity is. I mean have any of you tried leveling a fresh character with just story arcs, no outside investment, and without the AH?

 

2 hours ago, Rudra said:

Even now, as a veteran player, because I don't typically interact with the market system and because I don't use merits the way others recommend to make inf' to get enhancements, even at level 50, my characters have huge gaps in their enhancement slotting. (Yes, I have completed, fully incarnated 50s that can provide funds to my other characters, but that is a very limited supply. I am not awash in money in the game. Just like a new player, when I make a new character, I have to be choosy about my enhancements. To me, that is very much part of playing the game.)

 

Edit: My completed level 50s are typically broke, so yes, any new characters I make and try leveling do not have the benefit of a cash cow character providing funds.

 

20 minutes ago, nzer said:

Like, there's a difference between "let's not spoon-feed new players" and "players need to figure out how to exchange reward merits into converters and sell them on the AH just to meaningfully engage with basic gameplay systems."

No player has to figure out how to exchange reward merits into converters and sell them on the AH, or try to auction their salvage or DOs/SOs or recipes on the AH, or even interact with the AH at all to work with the enhancement system and figure out how it works. If they want to keep all their enhancement slots full with the newest DOs/SOs available to them at all times? Then yes, they will. Just playing with DOs/SOs? They can play the game just fine without interacting with the market. The game will get tougher as they go because they won't be able to slot too many enhancements unless they fortuitously drop from mobs until they hit a plateau where the challenge caps out for not doing so, but they can still do so just fine. And there is even a tutorial in the game that pretends to just be a story arc from auto-assigned contacts at level 6 that tells these players about the AH and that players use it to make money, so it isn't like the game doesn't provide them that information at all.

 

20 minutes ago, nzer said:

46 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Also, bear in mind that I am a solo-oriented player

 

No, you're misinterpreting how I used that term. I was using it to refer to the players I described in the preceding sentence, that being players who, for whatever reason, aren't inclined to reach out broadly for help.

Here is an interesting (in my opinion) little bit of information. When I first started playing? I actively stayed out of chat and didn't even pay attention to it. Not because I wanted to figure things out like my friends do, but because I did not like interacting with others. (Yeah, yeah, not something anyone would ever think the way I post on the forums, but it's been a really long time getting to this point.) And for those players like me? The game has progressed well beyond what it used to be. The information that I didn't start getting until I finally started watching chat for when other players asked the questions I also had but didn't want to ask? The game tells the player most of that information now. Whether through Twinshot's arcs or Dr. Graves' arcs. It isn't as well defined as what those players will get if they actually ask more experienced players or look up a game guide, but the base information is still there and presented to players even if they choose not to engage with other players.

Edited February 6 by Rudra

[PatternGhost]

50 minutes ago, nzer said:

They will also almost certainly not be trawling through the forums,

 

And yet here we are, because a new player went to the forums. 🤷‍♂️ (For that matter, they could have gotten the same response in game, by asking in /help)

 

I'd argue that the game should not teach someone how to convert Merits to Converters. It should teach them the game systems, yes. And all MMOs have that problem when it comes to balancing how much of core game systems knowledge it conveys, but the Merit to Converter flipping is emergent gameplay. Learning how to best use the game systems is better done by asking the player base. This is not evergreen knowledge, as future updates could change it, and shouldn't be part of the in game tutorial system.

 

The MMORPG genre is one that requires players to do some research or ask for help make the most of their gameplay. It's an inherent feature of the genre, for good or ill.

[nzer]

16 minutes ago, PatternGhost said:

And yet here we are, because a new player went to the forums.

 

Because one new player went to the forums, and they came specifically because they found the gameplay system intractable without a player pattern you yourself admit is not evergreen. So I don't really find this reasoning compelling. They're literally here because they were frustrated by an obvious missing piece in the basic gameplay systems.

 

16 minutes ago, PatternGhost said:

The MMORPG genre is one that requires players to do some research or ask for help make the most of their gameplay. It's an inherent feature of the genre, for good or ill.

 

Most modern MMORPGs intentionally do not require players to do research to meaningfully engage with basic gameplay systems, and the ones that do are typically panned for it. Endgame min-maxing and optimal progression? Sure, absolutely. But that's not what we're talking about here.

 

16 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If they want to keep all their enhancement slots full with the newest DOs/SOs available to them at all times?

 

You're phrasing this as if it's an unreasonable thing, but it's not. The game already has a sliding scale of player power to cost in the form of the DO > SO > IO > IO set progression. I don't see any reason why an unsupported player should be unable to even use all of their enhancement slots on top of that. What does that add to the game?

 

And again, this is specifically exacerbated by changes unique to Homecoming, such as innate double xp. It was not as much of an issue on live because you were getting more enhancement drops from enemies per level.

Edited February 6 by nzer